Welcome to the Redskins Chase Young DE Ohio State

[HTTRDynasty]

Just now, KDawg said:

But, this is why the draft is a total crapshoot. One man's eye doesn't see what another's does. 

 

And, ultimately, you could absolutely be correct. Or not. 

 

Very true.  What exact package would it take for you to trade back from #2 to #5?

[KDawg]

Just now, HTTRDynasty said:

 

Very true.  What exact package would it take for you to trade back from #2 to #5?

 I’d WANT 5, 18, a 2 and a 1 next year. 
 

I’d take 5/18 and next years 1. 
 

I’d consider but probably wouldn’t take 5/18.

[HTTRDynasty]

11 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 I’d WANT 5, 18, a 2 and a 1 next year. 
 

I’d take 5/18 and next years 1. 
 

I’d consider but probably wouldn’t take 5/18.

 

I guess your WANT is my NEED.

[Burgold]

15 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

Very true.  What exact package would it take for you to trade back from #2 to #5?

Remember the RGIII trade? Let's start with that.

[skins2victory]

Miami has 3 firsts, 2 seconds and a third.

1/5, 1/18/, 1/26

2/39, 2/56

3/70

 

- For me it starts with

1/5, 1/18, 1/26, 2/56, 2021 2nd

or

1/5, 1/18, 2/39, 2/56, 3/70, 2021 1st

 

If they are not willing to part with a load like this, then i'm more than happy taking CY!

Edited March 31, 2020 by skins2victory

[Skinsinparadise]

Been talking about this on the draft thread, living in South Florida, I follow the Dolphins sports writers some.  If their beat guys sources are correct, almost no chance they offer some huge haul for Tua.  But they might for Burrow at #1. 

 

 

 

Edited March 31, 2020 by Skinsinparadise

[KDawg]

I think the real wild card is if a team wants to move up for Young. And someone may.

 

I don't put it likely, but I could see Cincy swapping with the Giants or Lions and then still getting Herbert or Tua… Burrow would be gone as we'd either take him (I don't think so) or trade out for a good haul. 

[RWJ]

7 minutes ago, KDawg said:

I think the real wild card is if a team wants to move up for Young. And someone may.

 

I don't put it likely, but I could see Cincy swapping with the Giants or Lions and then still getting Herbert or Tua… Burrow would be gone as we'd either take him (I don't think so) or trade out for a good haul. 

It could happen but Cincy's history shows that Mike Brown hardly every trades in the 1st round and their need is QB.  I just can't see it but MUCH stranger things have happened.  If they did trade the pick and NY or another team took Young then yes we would get a HUGH haul for our #2 and bill ignorant to not trade down.  

[98ORAKPO98]

1 hour ago, KDawg said:

 

Your reasoning is astounding, Brian Orakpo.

 

I challenge people with this opinion (and by the way, it IS valid in my opinion) to go watch the tape of some of the other top prospects.

 

Search YouTube for Isaiah Simmons.

 

Search YouTube for Derrick Brown... Javon Kinlaw… Kenneth Murray... CeeDee Lamb... Jerry Jeudy… CJ Henderson... Travon Diggs... Jeffrey Okudah.

 

The draft is a complete cluster... but these dudes have some serious go in 'em. I know it's easy to become attached to players and stick to them because of love at first sight... But open your mind and watch the others.

 

It is VERY likely you come back that Young is still the best in this draft and there is no reason to pass on him.

 

But at the very least you may see that there are other outstanding talents in this draft. The top of this draft is loaded.

Yes I Brian Orakpo have astounding reasoning lol

 

In all seriousness, I think Simmons will be good, but he's not a sure thing like Young is. His sacks came on mostly blitzes, how would he fair pass rushing against a left tackle? I don't think he's quick enough to be a full time free safety. His best position imo would be as a sideline to sideline weakside linebacker that can fly around and make plays unblocked. 

 

The other guys you mentioned look good too, but Young is the next Julius Peppers or DeMarcus Ware first ballot hall of famer type freak imo.

 

Elite pass rusher more impactful than elite linebacker imo.

[CTskin]

1 hour ago, KDawg said:

 

Take a look at Derrick Brown.

 

Take a look at Isaiah Simmons.

 

Take a look at Ceedee Lamb and Jerry Jeudy.

 

I don't know if you're a college film guy or not... That's why I'm saying this. Sit down, get a glass of your favorite spirit, and watch these guys play for about 20 minutes each on YouTube. They are phenomenal. 

 

I'm not taking anything away from Chase Young. He is as good of a prospect as one could expect.

 

But that doesn't mean there aren't other stone cold killers out there. 

I don’t think that you’ll find many people here who will argue that all of those guys don’t have serious upside. The problem with trading back is you’ll only get one of the aforementioned. Even in the “dream scenario” where the dolphins give us two, even three 1sts, we’d get one stud and then there’d be a drop off by the 2nd pick. I just don’t know how we could pass up on a guy who has been an absolute freak and grades off the charts. His addition alone will upgrade the entire unit. Maaaaaybe Simmons has that potential, but even if Julio 2.0 was in this draft I’d take chase. Stud wrs are nice, but not as gamechanging as a dominant edge rusher and I like where we’re starting with McLaurin. 
 

if somehow we could get two top 7 picks then I’d be a lot more interested in a trade, even then It would be tough. We know what we have in chase, you never know how the draft will pan out when you move out of the top 15. 

[dyst]

Trade our #2 to Miami for all three of their picks.

 

Apparently Detroit wants to trade back? If so, maybe we can give them those two later first round picks from Miami.

 

Draft order now would be Cincy, Miami, Washington, Giants, Washington.

 

Wish it were this easy

[98ORAKPO98]

https://clutchpoints.com/rams-news-michael-brockers-compares-chase-young-to-aaron-donald/amp/

 

[HTTRDynasty]

Interesting thread here.  I don't agree with the conclusion, but I like the way he presented his argument.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[98ORAKPO98]

Young > Okudah.

[Koolblue13]

I wouldn't miss a beat if Simmons is the move, but I want Young. He's the clear best player in a stacked draft. You take him. It's simple.

 

I hope the Giants take a tackle and not Simmons or Okudah.

[CommandB11]

8 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

I wouldn't miss a beat if Simmons is the move, but I want Young. He's the clear best player in a stacked draft. You take him. It's simple.

 

I hope the Giants take a tackle and not Simmons or Okudah.

If I was Gettleman, I am taking Simmons in a heartbeat. Fits in their roster perfectly.

[Koolblue13]

3 minutes ago, panahoo said:

If I was Gettleman, I am taking Simmons in a heartbeat. Fits in their roster perfectly.

He's going to be one of the best LBers in football for the next decade, he fits everywhere, but their DC is a gump and I doubt he will have the time to get the most out of Simmons when he's still learning to be a defensive co.

 

Giants will be such a huge waste, which is fine. I see them going OT or WR.

[CommandB11]

53 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

He's going to be one of the best LBers in football for the next decade, he fits everywhere, but their DC is a gump and I doubt he will have the time to get the most out of Simmons when he's still learning to be a defensive co.

 

Giants will be such a huge waste, which is fine. I see them going OT or WR.

I hope so. I really like Simmons

[KDawg]

13 hours ago, 98ORAKPO98 said:

but Young is the next Julius Peppers or DeMarcus Ware first ballot hall of famer type freak imo.

 

Elite pass rusher more impactful than elite linebacker imo.

 

13 hours ago, CTskin said:

I don’t think that you’ll find many people here who will argue that all of those guys don’t have serious upside. The problem with trading back is you’ll only get one of the aforementioned. Even in the “dream scenario” where the dolphins give us two, even three 1sts, we’d get one stud and then there’d be a drop off by the 2nd pick. I just don’t know how we could pass up on a guy who has been an absolute freak and grades off the charts. His addition alone will upgrade the entire unit. Maaaaaybe Simmons has that potential, but even if Julio 2.0 was in this draft I’d take chase. Stud wrs are nice, but not as gamechanging as a dominant edge rusher and I like where we’re starting with McLaurin. 
 

if somehow we could get two top 7 picks then I’d be a lot more interested in a trade, even then It would be tough. We know what we have in chase, you never know how the draft will pan out when you move out of the top 15. 

 

Can I ask you guys something?

 

Why do you think EDGE is the most important position in relation to defensive dominance? Or more impactful than an elite linebacker? This is a fascinating conversation to me. 

 

Last year's sack leader was Shaq Barrett... He had 19.5 sacks. Where was he in the playoffs?

 

Chandler Jones had 19. Where was he?

 

Cam Jordan had 15.5. The Saints didn't make it far.

 

Danielle Hunter? 14.5. How far did the Vikings go?

 

TJ Watt had 14.5 and was a front runner for DPOY. Where were the Steelers?

 

Z. Smith 13.5. Disappointing exit early in the playoffs.

 

Aaron Donald, 12.5. Interior tackle (who are, in my opinion, more important than EDGE).

 

Preston Smith 12. See Z. Smith.

 

Joey Bosa 11.5. Where were the Chargers?

 

Bud Dupree, 11.5. Two Steelers in the top 10 in sacks and they weren't in the playoffs.

 

Dante Fowler and Robert Quinn also had 11.5. Not in the playoffs. 

 

Arik Armstead, with 10, was the highest ranked pass rusher of a team that made serious playoff noise. 

 

 

From: https://www.pff.com/news/pro-pff-ranks-all-32-pass-rush-units-ahead-of-the-2019-nfl-season

 

The above graphic shows you the top 5 pass rushing teams from last season. Are those teams killing the game? Saints 6, Broncos 7, Niners 8, Rams 9, Bears 10. Of the top ten only the Eagles, Texans, Saints, Niners were playoff teams. 40% of the top 10 pass rush teams. 

 

This isn't be devaluing the pass rush. There are many elements to the rush and lots of moving pieces that make the rush better/worse or get wiped out from a bad team/offense that they are paired with. The pass rush is very important. But it ties in to many factors. A lesser player can generate 19.5 sacks (See: Barrett, Shaq) if the defensive front/backers/coverage unit can make the QB hold the ball for a second longer.

 

Why are linebackers so undervalued by so many? They play the coverage game and the run stopping game. 

 

Why are safeties so undervalued? They are more pass than run but good ones do both.

 

In terms of value, having a rookie deal pass rusher is up there with a rookie deal QB. They save you a ton of cap space to fill your roster. So that's an obvious benefit to Young... besides the fact he is so highly skilled.

 

I just don't agree that EDGE rush is so important that you have to look squarely at that position if it's available.

 

You draft the best player available at #2. And that is likely, in most people's eyes, Chase Young. Agreed. But let's not pretend that the pass rush has been as important to team success as many believe it is.

 

What's more important is that the defense can generate a pass rush in the biggest moments of the game. And Young can likely do that. So, again, this isn't against Young. It's against the "need to draft an elite pass rush prospect" refrain.

Edited April 1, 2020 by KDawg

[HTTRDynasty]

10 minutes ago, KDawg said:

What's more important is that the defense can generate a pass rush in the biggest moments of the game. And Young can likely do that. 

 

And this is exactly the point.  More than looking at stats in a vacuum, I look across the league at who the true game-wreckers would be on 3rd and medium or long situations.  The guys you can depend on to affect the play in key situations.  The Redskins don't have one of those guys.  If you look at the teams in last year's playoffs, nearly all had at least one.

 

Chiefs - Chris Jones, Frank Clark

49ers - Bosa, Buckner, Ford, Armstead

Packers - Zadarius Smith, Kenny Clark

Vikings - Danielle Hunter, Everson Griffen

Seattle - Clowney

Eagles - Cox, Graham

Houston - Watt

 

When watching the playoffs, I saw over and over again the effect these guys had in key situations.  It's definitely not the end-all be-all, but it's a very important piece to have if you want to make it far in the playoffs (unless you're the Patriots).

 

The Redskins were 7th in sacks last year and top 3 in pressure rate, but that meant nothing when watching Week 1 and seeing the Eagles easily convert two long TDs to DJax on 3rd and 10 because we didn't have a guy who could consistently threaten the QB in those situations.  That is a huge NEED for this team.

[KDawg]

No one is looking at stats in a vacuum. You read the post. You know what I said.

 

I’m curious how many people regurgitate the whole “we need an elite pass rusher to be good” line without looking into it.

 

Truth is... you don’t need an elite pass rusher. You need a guy who shines in big moments. They are not always one in the same, though they do have some overlap. 
 

But even then, the Bears have s guy who shines in big moments. Where were they?

 

Big pass rush is not the end all be all. A good rush with complimenting units is much more important.

[HTTRDynasty]

12 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Big pass rush is not the end all be all. 

 

I literally said it's not the end-all be-all in my post. 😂

 

No one is saying you can't be good without an elite pass rusher.  Nor are they saying you're going to make the playoffs every year if you have one.  

 

And just for clarification on my stance: A high number of sacks in a vacuum ≠ ELITE.

 

46 minutes ago, KDawg said:

From: https://www.pff.com/news/pro-pff-ranks-all-32-pass-rush-units-ahead-of-the-2019-nfl-season

 

The above graphic shows you the top 5 pass rushing teams from last season. Are those teams killing the game? Saints 6, Broncos 7, Niners 8, Rams 9, Bears 10. Of the top ten only the Eagles, Texans, Saints, Niners were playoff teams. 40% of the top 10 pass rush teams. 

 

 

By the way, the PFF link you posted was from before the 2019 season even started....................

Edited April 1, 2020 by HTTRDynasty

[KDawg]

7 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

I literally said it's not the end-all be-all in my post. 😂

 

No one is saying you can't be good without an elite pass rusher.  Nor are they saying you're going to make the playoffs every year if you have one.  

 

And just for clarification on my stance: A high number of sacks in a vacuum ≠ ELITE.

 

 

By the way, the PFF link you posted was from before the 2019 season even started....................

Said 2019 rankings. Point stands but it’s obviously a little off now *shrug*
 

As far as you saying that - I know. I’m not directly talking to you in much of that post.

 

People do think Edge is the most important position for a pass rush here and you know it. 

[Skinsinparadise]

29 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

The Redskins were 7th in sacks last year and top 3 in pressure rate, but that meant nothing when watching Week 1 and seeing the Eagles easily convert two long TDs to DJax on 3rd and 10 because we didn't have a guy who could consistently threaten the QB in those situations.  That is a huge NEED for this team.

 

It's a big point for me about this defense.  Last year wasn't the first time our defense was poor on third downs.  I've mentioned this previously on other threads but I recall Polian talk about the discrepancy with the Redskins defense as for their lack of success on third down.  Polian said this either 2 or 3 years ago, can't recall.

 

He said the problem with the Redskins defense is they don't have that one pass rusher that you can line up wide on third and long and tee off on the passer on obvious pass downs.  He said Kerrigan and Preston can be contained for the most part when you know its an obvious pass down. 

 

But you need a pass rusher who can't be stopped on those downs.  The try hard-effort type of pass rushers typically have blockers glued into them on the crucial downs.  He goes you need a guy who can't be stopped and creates fear in both the O lineman and QBs.  

 

I rewatched the Carolina game this morning.  The D line really came to life in that game.  I was imagining what would Chase bring to that type of front and it was fun to think about it.  Kyle Allen in that game in some spots had no chance.  And it was easy to see in that game that the best thing you can do for a weak secondary (see SF from 2018 to 2019) is a fierce pass rush. 

[KDawg]

Agree @Skinsinparadise

 

Young is an intriguing prospect. NOT because he’s an a lite edge. Because he’s an elite playmaker. 
 

It’s a subtle difference, but it is one of importance to note. 
 

What team’s need are playmakers.

 

Young is that.

 

My contention, to reiterate, isn’t that you need an elite edge or pass rush... you need elite playmakers. Which is what you seem to be alluding to as well.