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1 minute ago, KDawg said:

Agree @Skinsinparadise

 

Young is an intriguing prospect. NOT because he’s an a lite edge. Because he’s an elite playmaker. 
 

It’s a subtle difference, but it is one of importance to note. 
 

What team’s need are playmakers.

 

Young is that.

 

My contention, to reiterate, isn’t that you need an elite edge or pass rush... you need elite playmakers. Which is what you seem to be alluding to as well.

 

Yeah I agree.  This team is desperate for playmakers.  Part of what I like in the mix with Chase is he creates havoc and not just sacks but pressure, forced fumbles, etc.

 

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8 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

It's a big point for me about this defense.  Last year wasn't the first time our defense was poor on third downs.  I've mentioned this previously on other threads but I recall Polian talk about the discrepancy with the Redskins defense as for their lack of success on third down.  Polian said this either 2 or 3 years ago, can't recall.

 

He said the problem with the Redskins defense is they don't have that one pass rusher that you can line up wide on third and long and tee off on the passer on obvious pass downs.  He said Kerrigan and Preston can be contained for the most part when you know its an obvious pass down. 

 

But you need a pass rusher who can't be stopped on those downs.  The try hard-effort type of pass rushers typically have blockers glued into them on the crucial downs.  He goes you need a guy who can't be stopped and creates fear in both the O lineman and QBs.  

 

I rewatched the Carolina game this morning.  The D line really came to life in that game.  I was imagining what would Chase bring to that type of front and it was fun to think about it.  Kyle Allen in that game in some spots had no chance.  And it was easy to see in that game that the best thing you can do for a weak secondary (see SF from 2018 to 2019) is a fierce pass rush. 

 

Yeah, we had the worst 3rd down conversion percentage against in the league last year for a reason. 

 

I re-watched the Carolina game recently too and liked what I saw out of the DL... although Sweat's two sacks came against Greg Olsen, so I'm not too excited about him in particular, at least based off that game.  I do like how he played against the Cowboys in the last game of the year though, albeit it was against a backup LT.

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9 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

Yeah, we had the worst 3rd down conversion percentage against in the league last year for a reason. 

 

I re-watched the Carolina game recently too and liked what I saw out of the DL... although Sweat's two sacks came against Greg Olsen, so I'm not too excited about him in particular, at least based off that game.  I do like how he played against the Cowboys in the last game of the year though, albeit it was against a backup LT.

 

Sweat was somewhat up and down, he's fast but also seems a bit stiff.  Though many pass rushers start off slow as rookies.  I think Sweat would benefit from having Young on the other side, ditto everyone else on the D line.  

Edited by Skinsinparadise
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1 hour ago, actorguy1 said:

Playing devil's advocate, other than 3rd and long, how does the quick passing game nullify the pass rush? Please present your answer in essay form. Extra credit will be given for written diagrams.


Okay I got this guys. 
 

A lot.

 

I hope that meets the criteria.

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Hard to argue that. Except I don’t know how you say he has higher potential. Young is more polished, both have Sky high potential. Saying Simmons could be one of the best coverage defenders in the NFL and then poo pooing his ceiling is a stance. An odd one. But a stance.

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Just now, Riggo#44 said:

 

Derwin James though was injury related 

 

He was healthy at the time of the draft.  His injury history surely didn't help, but I don't think he would have gone top 10 regardless.  It seems obvious that the NFL doesn't value the hybrid players as much as fans/media do.  Even Minkah was drafted at 11. 

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38 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Hard to argue that. Except I don’t know how you say he has higher potential. Young is more polished, both have Sky high potential. Saying Simmons could be one of the best coverage defenders in the NFL and then poo pooing his ceiling is a stance. An odd one. But a stance.

 

the problem with being able to line up anywhere is he may end up with a defensive coach who lines him up in the wrong place

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2 minutes ago, carex said:

 

the problem with being able to line up anywhere is he may end up with a defensive coach who lines him up in the wrong place


Sure. But that’s not a Simmons problem. Young could wind up with a DC that tries him as a 3-tech. Having an idiot for a coach shouldn’t effect ceiling potential. Only floor.

 

Simmons’ floor is lower due to that, because it’s easier to **** him up. 
 

But their ceilings are pretty even.

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Young will have more impact on the game than Simmons, and make more game changing plays. Young is more of a sure thing to be great as well. I remember people saying how great Hasaan Reddick was going to be, he turned out good but not a superstar, Simmons could be similar. 

 

Young will get more sacks which back up the offense and waist a down for the opposing teams offense. More QB pressures and QB hits which can lead to a bad decision by the opposing teams QB to throw early which can then possibly lead to an interception, and can take a toll mentally on the opposing teams QB by being afraid of the pressure and incoming hits he's taking, leading to rushed throws and not being settled in the pocket disrupting his rythem.

 

More forced fumbles which can lead to a turnover, more deflected passes at the line of scrimmage which can lead to an interception or waisted down for the offense. More blocked kicks on special teams (Julius Peppers had 13 career BK) Maybe Young can impact the game here too because of his length. Young can also set the edge against the run and prevent roll outs, boot legs and screens to his side because of his speed and instincts. Young will also demand double team blocks which will open up things for his teammates allowing them to make plays. Young will also make game changing plays at critical moments because he can get pressure quicker than your average pass rusher. 

 

Simmons and Okudah may very well be great, but Young will have more impact on the game overall imo. That's why elite pass rushers get paid the big bucks, there has to be a reason for that.

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3 minutes ago, 98ORAKPO98 said:

Young will have more impact on the game than Simmons, and make more game changing plays. Young is more of a sure thing to be great as well. I remember people saying how great Hasaan Reddick was going to be, he turned out good but not a superstar, Simmons could be similar. 

 

 

I think a lot of it depends on how Simmons is used, with his strengths taken advantage of

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Not a single part of that expose is based on anything other than what you think based on Young hype.

 

You don’t know any of that. No one does. 
 

I wish you thought on a more realistic plane of existence. It’s entirely possible Simmons busts. It’s possible Young busts, believe it or not. 
 

You’re even talking about Young blocking kicks for goodness sake. 

Edited by KDawg
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40 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Not a single part of that expose is based on anything other than what you think based on Young hype.

 

You don’t know any of that. No one does. 
 

I wish you thought on a more realistic plane of existence. It’s entirely possible Simmons busts. It’s possible Young busts, believe it or not. 
 

You’re even talking about Young blocking kicks for goodness sake. 

No I don't know that Young will be more dominant or impactful than the other mentioned defenders, but I'd put a hefty wager on it that he will be. 😉

 

It IS realistic to think that an elite edge rusher has more impact on the game than the other defensive positions. Examples why given in my expose above. :)

 

I also think that elite edge rushers can impact the game more, and make more game changing plays than any other defensive positions including defensive tackles. Especially the edge rushers that can line up all over the defensive line and drop back into coverage etc. I would take Chase Young, Julius Peppers, Lawrence Taylor, Reggie White, J.J. Watt over Aaron Donald. Or over Deion Sanders, Rod Woodson, Ed Reed, Ray Lewis, Joe Greene, Ronnie Lott, etc.

 

Blocked kicks are a game changing play. Young has the potential like Peppers.

 

Peppers got sacks, qb hits and hurries, took on double teams freeing up teammates to make plays, lined up all along the defensive line and dropped into coverage showing versatility, forced fumbles, fumble recoveries, interceptions, pass deflections, tackles for loss, scored defensive touchdowns (6 total). Blocked kicks etc. Also was used as tight end on occasion and nearly scored a couple offensive td's. Young could have the same impact as Peppers and the above mentioned edge rushers.

 

Edge rusher > any other defensive positions measured by impact on the game imo.

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3 hours ago, KDawg said:


Sure. But that’s not a Simmons problem. Young could wind up with a DC that tries him as a 3-tech. Having an idiot for a coach shouldn’t effect ceiling potential. Only floor.

 

Simmons’ floor is lower due to that, because it’s easier to **** him up. 
 

But their ceilings are pretty even.

 

wouldn't constantly being taken out of position to make plays limit your effectiveness?  How effective you end up being when you leave the league is generally thought of as your ceiling

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2 minutes ago, carex said:

 

wouldn't constantly being taken out of position to make plays limit your effectiveness?  How effective you end up being when you leave the league is generally thought of as your ceiling


Im not sure what you’re asking. Simmons has a sky high ceiling. His floor is lower than Young’s though.

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29 minutes ago, KDawg said:


Im not sure what you’re asking. Simmons has a sky high ceiling. His floor is lower than Young’s though.

 

the fact he can do so many different things means it's easier for coaches to screw him up, that lowers his ceiling in my estimation

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Just now, carex said:

 

the fact he can do so many different things means it's easier for coaches to screw him up, that lowers his ceiling in my estimation


No. That doesn’t lower his ceiling. His ceiling is his maximum potential. Which is as high as any prospect in this draft class.

 

It lowers his floor. Because if miscast, he won’t be able to play to his ability. That’s where Young’s biggest edge on him is. It’s tougher to **** him up.

 

Using totally arbitrary values on a scale of 1-10, in a perfect situation, Simmons and Young are 10s. 
 

In a poor situation, Young is a 7, Simmons is a 4. 

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