Next Day Thread: Redskins vs. Jets

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

I really wish fans didn't call players "kid."

 

This is not World War II and you are not a grizzled sergeant.

 

Have a nice day.

[KDawg]

30 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

Are you saying Haskins or McLaurin was hurt that play?

 

Haskins. Watch his body when he throws. Someone hits him when he does that he's in trouble.

 

The other thing and I know some here talk about his mechanics and I did see his mechanics WAY off on deep balls, especially the play of the game that was called back (and OSU still sent tweets out because it was so pretty), but it seemed like even though his mechanics were way off, he was still able to make the plays or get the ball to the right place. I think I counted like 8 dropped balls that would have made the game closer early on.

 

I'm not sure he was making plays.

 

So how much do we want perfect mechanics vs getting the ball out?

 

If you are making plays consistently and your mechanics are off, then it is generally overlooked. If your mechanics are poor and you don't make plays, then there is a larger issue.

[Thinking Skins]

@Gibbs Hog Heaven (I don't know why I can't quote your post), but I agree and sometimes the immediate reaction is like NO NO NO NO NO NO, OH HELL YES!!!!! and thats the reaction you get from a lot stuff. I know the Sprinkle play that was dropped I was saying that until he dropped it. 

 

And I think something else should be said. I don't know who Haskins practices with, whether its Richardson, Harmon, Quinn Sims, Simms or somebody else, but I'd imagine that on a play like the INT he threw a part of that was based on his comfort with Quinn because of reps as first team. (remember he wasn't getting reps at all as the second and third string QB). So while Harmon (or was it Guice) was open maybe the trust wasn't there that Harmon would make the play on the ball that he had confidence that Quinn would. 

 

If you look at the PBP though, you'll see that after that INT Haskins didn't go back to Quinn other than the 2 pointer. Maybe thats nothing but maybe thats something. 

Afterwards its 

Sims. Sims, Sprinkle, Hentges, Harmon, Guice for a TD, and I'll say I liked that drive because aside from the screen to Guice (which I called in the prediction thread) we saw two nice throws for first downs beyond the markers, one on a third down to Sprinkle. 

Then it was Guice and Sprinkle

Then TMac, Hentges, TMac, Burton, Sprinkle (TD)

 

Contrast that with before the INT where he went AP, AP, TMac

Hentges

TMac, Sims

Smallwood, Quinn

Quinn, Harmon, Harmon

TMac, Quinn

Harmon, Harmon, Harmon, Sims, 

Smallwood, Smallwood

 

Maybe thats not a clear distincition, but we see that Sprinkle wasn't an option before and Hentges was only there for a almost no gain. ANd it was almost exclusively known names. But the guys who helped us in the second half were unknowns. And even if he wasn't completing the passes the fact that he was spreading it kinda opens up the coverages right?

[Thinking Skins]

The other thing I'll bring up (and I heard this on the Junkies this morning) haven't listened to any other shows yet), but its the idea of forcing the ball to TMac vs spreading it out? I didnt think of this during the game other that saying to myself that I wish that Sprinkle or Hentges could emerge as a threat. Sprinkle kinda did but dropped that pass. And I thought that there was a balance between forcing the ball to TMac and finding the open guy. the 99 yards through 3 quarters doesn't look good but thats easily 160 if the beauty stands and we don't have the drops. I'll admit that some of the could have been better placed but I thought he was getting the ball to guys and giving them a chance to make plays. I do wish Guice had more opportunities in the pass game though. 

[fearlessNelms]

So far Haskins looks to me like a guy who will amount to a career backup at best. I do believe, however, that you can't get a true grade on him until he gets some top notch QB coaching. Callahan is an old school guy who's offensive philosophy sets back offensive football 50 years. O'Connell is not the next young wonder offensive genius that many people think and other than the fact that he's a young offensive coach on the Redskins staff as were kyle Shanahan, Matt LeFleur and Sean McVay, the fact is is that he's done nothing so far to suggest that he's even an average OC. Those other three guys were rooted from the Shanahan coaching tree and their offensive knowledge is light years ahead of O'Connells, in my opinion. Our other senior offensive coach, Matt Cavanaugh is just a guy that has bounced all over the place and though he won a SB with Baltimore as their OC in 2000, we all know that team won strictly because of a historic type defense. 

 

Haskins may never get the first class QB coaching he needs here, as we have no idea who the next coach will be and what kind of staff we'll have. But as i said, I will give him somewhat of a pass for now. I don't think many, if any, rookie QB's could play well under the current coaching circumstances here. As for the overall team performance yesterday? it's pretty hard to watch. The coaching staff is delusional if they think they're going to be here next season and the players know that. This leads to ugly football and most of these guys have the U-Haul parked outside the locker room already.  

[NoCalMike]

Guice looked pretty solid in his limited snaps.  If his body stays true, then I think his workload should definitely increase over the next game or so.  The screen pass he took in for a TD, he did it pretty effortlessly. The initial blocks set him up, but the way he ran in the open field, threw a juke and took it to the house is pretty much was he was envisioned as doing as a dual threat when drafted.  

 

People comparing Haskins first couple games to Smith & Case's first two games in this offense have to realize first 2 games in a specific offense vs 2 first games in the NFL period are not the same thing.  Alex Smith was seen as a terrible QB for the first 5-7 seasons of his career. When he got a good team built around him things suddenly clicked.  I am not suggesting to give Haskins that long to make it work, but he has barely had a chance to show much thus far. 

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

General thoughts:

 

1. Haskins honest to God needs a full off-season with a program which is going to drill the ever living hell out of his fundamentals. This means a complete and total commitment from the organization, including the coach, and, most importantly, from Haskins.  Here's the thing: Haskins has shown that he can throw with anticipation, and when his fundamentals are there, can be both elusive and accurate.  2 examples from yesterday: the 2 point conversion was possibly his best throw.  He evaded pressure, and I loved the way he dipped his shoulder and evaded, it was textbook.  Then he managed to square himself and make a good throw.  And he did something similar on the pass to McClaurin where Scherff strangled (Doc's words) the guy.  He evaded and then made a perfect throw.  He CAN do it.  He has the ability, and the talent.  But he needs to be MUCH more consistent.  This means practice, reps and commitment.  And commitment from the top (whoever that is) down to make it work.  And it's not something which can be worked out in-season.

 

The question the organization is going to have to answer is if Haskins is going to get that opportunity here.  It's possible the 'Skins end up with the #1 pick and whoever is picking (assuming it's not Bruce) might take Burrow or Tua.  Or they might honestly think Alex Smith is the QB next year.  

 

Personally, if we ended up with the #1 or #2 pick, as of this minute, I would look to trade to 3, get a kings ransom, pick Chase Young, commit to Haskins, and go from there. I'm just going to assume Burrow and Tua go 1-2 because they are QBs.  And QBs rise.  Also, if Smith can actually play, at least you have a couple options.  

 

I'd also switch to the 4-3 (I know they are in nickle 65% of the time, but I'd just make the switch permanent) and have Kerrigan and Young on the outside and Payne and Allen on the inside, and I think that could be one hell of a strong defensive line.  That's as of right now, and I might change my opinion by draft day.

 

2. The defense is horrendous, and everybody, from FO to Coaches to players all are responsible.  Personally, I believe that there is enough talent on defense for them to be average, and not complete and total suck. The front 7 alone has enough talent to not completely suck.  The talent has been way-over-rated, and I don't think I'm doing that here.  But I do think Allen, Payne, Matty I, Kerrigan, Anderson, Bostic, Sweat and company are a legitimate collection of NFL talent.  Not the '85 bears.  But not completely suck.  

 

The number of miscommunications in the secondary between Moreau, Monte and Norman (more on him in a minute, he gets his own bullet) is absolutely unacceptable.  To me, this falls on coaching.  None of these guys are rookies, and if you as coaches can't get 3 veterans on the same page, that's on you.  Even if you have to just play straight zone all the time because that's all they can do, you can't keep trying the same thing over and over and have it fail the same way.

 

3. Norman needs to be cut today. Enough of this.  He's a liability on the field every time he's out there, so it's time to try other people, even if they are brought up from the PS or signed off the street.  Again, insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.  He's proven he just can't do what they are asking him to do, and almost every highlight for the opposing team has Norman 5 yards away diving like superman.  

 

4. The entire roster needs an overhaul.  Here's the good news: By cutting or trading Trent, Reed and Norman, they could save  $33 million on the cap, and they are projected to have ~$45 mil of cap space without those cuts.  They could save $11m  more if they traded Kerrigan.  More if you do something with RIchardson.  So they will have money to play with.  They also are going to have a top pick in each round of the draft except the second (I believe), and hopefully they get at least a 2nd back for Trent. 

 

So IF you have a competent GM and Coach (which is far from a reality), there is room to make some moves.  They basically have to rebuild the entire OL and secondary, and fill in a few weapons as well.  This is assuming they don't go QB.  

 

5.  If I was Callahan, I might really consider becoming super aggressive and trying to energize the team that way.  Because this whole 3 yards in a cloud of AP's dust is boring as hell, and doesn't excite anybody.  Whereas if you came out and tried to be aggressive and push the ball down the field, that can possibly energize the team a bit and give them a reason to keep working.  Sure, Dwayne might throw 30 INTs, but so what?  If you're going to lose, why not lose trying to be aggressive? 

 

The other thing is that they are trying to "win" games in the hardest possible way, with absolutely no margin for error.  Because on offense you have to string together 10+ play drives to score, which they typically can't do without committing a mistake or penalty, so the defense has to pitch a virtual shutout so they can win 6-3.   

 

Peyton's rookie season he threw something like 22 or 26 INTs, and I think they went 6-10 or 5-11 or something.  But at least they were interesting and exciting to watch on offense, the players bought in, and even though there were growing pains, there was a point to it.

 

Handing the ball off a ton to AP and Guice doesn't motivate anybody, and doesn't help anything.   

 

6. I like Dustin as much as the next guy, but dude has to stop missing short kicks.  It really doesn't matter this year.  They need to bring in competition for him next year.  

 

7. The most positive thing to come out of yesterday is Guice looked good and finished the game healthy.  

 

 

In summary, that was one of the worst games I have seen the Redskins play because they were boat raced by a team that was BAD.  However, I don't think it's time to give up on Haskins after 2 starts.  I think there is something there, I also think that Haskins was put into a no-win situation with Jay, and what Callahan is doing to him now isn't really in his best interest, though I think Callahan thinks he's doing the right thing.

 

Manusky should never have been brought back, and the coaching on the defense is atrocious, and I'd be all for a change there, even if it might not do much of anything at this point.  

 

There is only so much you can repair in-flight.  This plane took off with a leaky gas tank and a drunk pilot.  So there's only so much you can do before you land.  The co-pilot is trying to land the plane for repairs on the ground.  However, the gas tank has caught fire, a bird hit an engine, the tail broke in half, and the landing gear is stuck in the up position.  So it's going to be a bumpy ride and a crash landing.  

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

 

 

 

 

 

5 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

 

'What! We're highly paid, professional athletes. Who have stunk the joint out for long enough. And we're expected to actually put extra work in to, to, yanno, try get F better and win games! The F nerve of the HC! Who the F does he think he is! I'm telling my Mom! 

 

Seriously, what a F ****show of a playing staff we have beyond anything else. As exemplified by the majority's disgraceful attitude yesterday in mailing it in. 

 

That starts from within yourself to want to get better and put the hard, extra graft in to improve. It shouldn't need to come from the staff. And shouldn't make ANY difference whether it's a long-tenured staff. Or one on an interim basis who may or may not be here next year. That's on the individual and what separates the greats from the career JAGS. The personal need to get better. 

 

We are filled with career JAGS who insult every last Redskin fan out there with that P poor attitude. 

 

I'd have them all in today if I could after their disgrace yesterday. 

 

Hail. 

[megared]

4 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

3. Norman needs to be cut today. Enough of this.  He's a liability on the field every time he's out there, so it's time to try other people, even if they are brought up from the PS or signed off the street.  Again, insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.  He's proven he just can't do what they are asking him to do, and almost every highlight for the opposing team has Norman 5 yards away diving like superman.  

 

This is why the whole accountability shtick falls short with me, even with this interim coaching staff.  The trade deadline has passed...anyone with an ounce of sense knows he isn't going to be here next season.  So instead of letting the young guys play...you continue to trot him out?  Can they really be worse?  Wouldn't it be nice to be pleasantly surprised by their play?  

 

It wouldn't surprise me if they overcompensate by targeting a top of the market FA CB in the offseason.  It'd be such a Redskins move.  

[Voice_of_Reason]

11 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

So, 2 things on this: 

 

1. I can understand players not wanting to practice when they are 1-8, not going anywhere, and just want to be done with the season and go to wherever it is they go to in the off-season.  Also, most probably think that Callahan and company have virtually no shot of returning, so doing more work for a lame duck coaching staff is not appealing.  So, I get it from that perspective.  I don't agree with it, but I definitely get it. 

2. The players are used to club Jay, and this is a change from the norm, and they are upset about it. Especially when they have nothing to play for.  

 

This also comes back to something I just posted: I don't think the players and coaches are on the same page about what they are trying to accomplish.

 

Old Man Callahan wants to instil a tough, grind it out, tough guy philosophy, and make the team tougher, and all this.  The problem is it hasn't worked, and now you're 1-9.  

 

The players know that this brand of 1947 football isn't going to take them anywhere, and they see the type of football which other teams are playing.  And they don't feel really motivated to try real hard for the combination of a boring, uninspiring plan and a lame duck coaching staff. Now IF the toughness and running the ball and whatever had immediately started to turn into points and wins, then I think they would be much more bought in.  

 

But it didn't, so they're not. 

 

I think the only chance they have is to throw caution to the wind, come up with exciting and different schemes on both sides of the ball, and try and get some excitement and commitment from that.  

 

Going into an install and seeing 35 "AP runs that way" runs (and I get it, there might be 35 different concepts), is just uninspiring to the overall unit.  Whereas "let's go torch these guys" with a lot of quick game, play action, etc. might generate more enthusiasm. 

 

It's really hard to get motivated to go bang your head on a cement wall 30 times a game and score no points.  

[Thinking Skins]

Its also worth pointing out for Harmon: 

 

Targeted 6 times and caught 5 of those. Had 53 yards which is more than all of Richardson's game performances this year with the exception of week 3 against Chicago. 

[Voice_of_Reason]

5 minutes ago, megared said:

 

This is why the whole accountability shtick falls short with me, even with this interim coaching staff.  The trade deadline has passed...anyone with an ounce of sense knows he isn't going to be here next season.  So instead of letting the young guys play...you continue to trot him out?  Can they really be worse?  Wouldn't it be nice to be pleasantly surprised by their play?  

 

It wouldn't surprise me if they overcompensate by targeting a top of the market FA CB in the offseason.  It'd be such a Redskins move.  

Even if the play is just as bad, at least you are TRYING something.  It could be worse.  It could be better.  You don't know until you try.  

[KDawg]

11 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

General thoughts:

 

1. Haskins honest to God needs a full off-season with a program which is going to drill the ever living hell out of his fundamentals. This means a complete and total commitment from the organization, including the coach, and, most importantly, from Haskins.  Here's the thing: Haskins has shown that he can throw with anticipation, and when his fundamentals are there, can be both elusive and accurate.  2 examples from yesterday: the 2 point conversion was possibly his best throw.  He evaded pressure, and I loved the way he dipped his shoulder and evaded, it was textbook.  Then he managed to square himself and make a good throw.  And he did something similar on the pass to McClaurin where Scherff strangled (Doc's words) the guy.  He evaded and then made a perfect throw.  He CAN do it.  He has the ability, and the talent.  But he needs to be MUCH more consistent.  This means practice, reps and commitment.  And commitment from the top (whoever that is) down to make it work.  And it's not something which can be worked out in-season.

 

 

Problem is the new coaching staff is going to be getting itself into place through the offseason. So he won't have that, either. Again, reasons you don't draft a project with a lame duck HC in the 1st round 101.

 

Personally, if we ended up with the #1 or #2 pick, as of this minute, I would look to trade to 3, get a kings ransom, pick Chase Young, commit to Haskins, and go from there. I'm just going to assume Burrow and Tua go 1-2 because they are QBs.  And QBs rise.  Also, if Smith can actually play, at least you have a couple options. 

 

Tua's hip changes that discussion. Injury prone guy has a hip injury (specifically a dislocated hip), which directly effects his base, regardless of full recovery there are other considerations.

 

2. The defense is horrendous, and everybody, from FO to Coaches to players all are responsible.  Personally, I believe that there is enough talent on defense for them to be average, and not complete and total suck. The front 7 alone has enough talent to not completely suck.  The talent has been way-over-rated, and I don't think I'm doing that here.  But I do think Allen, Payne, Matty I, Kerrigan, Anderson, Bostic, Sweat and company are a legitimate collection of NFL talent.  Not the '85 bears.  But not completely suck.

 

I think you're overrating Kerrigan. You're really overrating Anderson. You're ridiculously overrating Bostic. I don't see a ton of  building blocks besides the DL and Collins/Dunbar.  

 

4. The entire roster needs an overhaul.  Here's the good news: By cutting or trading Trent, Reed and Norman, they could save  $33 million on the cap, and they are projected to have ~$45 mil of cap space without those cuts.  They could save $11m  more if they traded Kerrigan.  More if you do something with RIchardson.  So they will have money to play with.  They also are going to have a top pick in each round of the draft except the second (I believe), and hopefully they get at least a 2nd back for Trent.

 

Add Kerrigan to this list. 

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

Just now, Thinking Skins said:

Its also worth pointing out for Harmon: 

 

Targeted 6 times and caught 5 of those. Had 53 yards which is more than all of Richardson's game performances this year with the exception of week 3 against Chicago. 

They really might have found something with McClaurin, Harmon, Simms and Guice.  There is talent there. And that's before we've seen Bryce Love, who could also help out if healthy.  

 

They REALLY need a complementary TE, better QB play and some OL help.  

 

But they have a lot of young and very talented skill position players who have the ability to develop in the right situation.  

[Thinking Skins]

Just now, Voice_of_Reason said:

They REALLY need a complementary TE, better QB play and some OL help.  

 

Call me crazy but I still have some hope that Sprinkle can be that guy, at least this year. We should look to improve it next year but Sprinkle is being trusted to run more routes and making more plays than last season with Johnson. 

[Skinsinparadise]

 

wrong thread

[Voice_of_Reason]

1 minute ago, KDawg said:

 

Problem is the new coaching staff is going to be getting itself into place through the offseason. So he won't have that, either. Again, reasons you don't draft a project with a lame duck HC in the 1st round 101.

Oh, I disagree.  I think whatever coaching staff comes in here knows job #1 is to get Haskins up to speed.  With any luck, they are hired by the end of January, and put a plan in place with Haskins immediately. 

 

I completely agree that it was a completely stupid decision to try and pair a coach going into his 6th year and had to win with a rookie QB.  That was stupid on steroids.  But here we are. 

 

I think it's possible for the new coaching staff, if they are competent, to figure things out quickly.  The question is, will they be competent.  

 

1 minute ago, KDawg said:

Tua's hip changes that discussion. Injury prone guy has a hip injury (specifically a dislocated hip), which directly effects his base, regardless of full recovery there are other considerations.

Maybe.  But how many times have we seen teams reach for QBs in the first round?  A lot.  Like, a lot a lot.  Only one idiot team needs to fall in love with Tua and convince themselves that his hip is fine.  (pst.  that idiot team could be the Redskins at #2.)

 

1 minute ago, KDawg said:

I think you're overrating Kerrigan. You're really overrating Anderson. You're ridiculously overrating Bostic. I don't see a ton of  building blocks besides the DL and Collins/Dunbar.  

No, I don't think I am overrating any of them.  All I said is that they are "legitimate NFL Talent."  That doesn't mean pro-bowl, or '85 bears, just that they are players who should be on an NFL roster.  Kerrigan should be on an NFL roster.  Anderson has improved enough to be a role player, Bostic is "fine."

 

And I didn't say they should be building blocks.  I just said they were players who, if they were cut by the Redskins, probably find another job somewhere in the NFL.  That's not a very high bar, but that's kindof the where we are.  

 

1 minute ago, KDawg said:

Add Kerrigan to this list. 

I can't add him because he was already on the list. 

[Voice_of_Reason]

15 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

Call me crazy but I still have some hope that Sprinkle can be that guy, at least this year. We should look to improve it next year but Sprinkle is being trusted to run more routes and making more plays than last season with Johnson. 

He’s fine for what he is but they need more.  

 

He also needs to catch the damn ball when it hits him in the hands.  

15 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

wrong thread

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

40 minutes ago, Gibbs Hog Heaven said:

 

That starts from within yourself to want to get better and put the hard, extra graft in to improve. It shouldn't need to come from the staff. And shouldn't make ANY difference whether it's a long-tenured staff. Or one on an interim basis who may or may not be here next year. That's on the individual and what separates the greats from the career JAGS. The personal need to get better. 

 

We are filled with career JAGS who insult every last Redskin fan out there with that P poor attitude. 

 

I'd have them all in today if I could after their disgrace yesterday. 

 

 

Belligerent ghouls run Manchester schools

Spineless swine, demented minds

Sir leads the troops, jealous of youth
Same old suit since 1962

He does the military two-step
Down the nape of my neck

[Thinking Skins]

25 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Problem is the new coaching staff is going to be getting itself into place through the offseason. So he won't have that, either. Again, reasons you don't draft a project with a lame duck HC in the 1st round 101.

 

Well, that depends. Its not unheard of for a coaching staff to keep some coaches. I don't know whose contracts are up but you saw it with Gruden keeping a guy like McVay. There are coaching circles and a guy like KOC has a fan base in the coaching staff. I'm not saying we SHOULD keep him but its definitely a possibility. 

 

And now I'm buying more into the anti-Cal type thought from maybe KOC and maybe some players. Partially from the grind it out type play and partially from the practices (when compared to Club Gruden and other coahces in the league). I think about how Scot Mc. talked about signing other teams players and you've got their philosophies from other teams and how they expect things to go, vs training them yourself. 

 

But I'll say that there was a difference in plays in the first 3 quarters vs the 4th. So was that more KOC? I don't know. 

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

28 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

Call me crazy but I still have some hope that Sprinkle can be that guy, at least this year. We should look to improve it next year but Sprinkle is being trusted to run more routes and making more plays than last season with Johnson. 

 

 

I am out on him.  Cooley has said (and PFF scores back him on this point big time) he's not a good blocker but if anything below average.  The whole idea of Sprinkle was that he'd potentially be a good blocker who can be some threat in the passing game.  But he's neither. 

 

 

 

On another note, As Galdi brought up they complained last year when they stepped up practice in a short week.   Peterson had to chime in to get it under control.  I agree with @Gibbs Hog Heaven on this -- you need players who are winners.  This reflects poorly on the personnel and their mindset to strive to be great.  I think its no coincidence that it was Peterson of all people who had to talk to players about this last year -- he's the epitome of a hard working winner. 

 

 

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

32 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

 

It's really hard to get motivated to go bang your head on a cement wall 30 times a game and score no points.  

 

Yea. This entire Callahan approach has been "The beatings will continue until morale improves."

 

This is why I wanted to promote Rob Ryan to head coach or defensive coordinator or something. If you're going to get blown out every game, put a Ryan in charge, and make it fun.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

*Waves to my #1 fan. 

 

We'll do dinner so you can get the full experience. 

 

Hail. 

[profusion]

I'd like to think that this game was rock bottom, except that this organization has shown a remarkable talent at digging down through bedrock.