"No Zero" Policy at Maryland Schools

[TD_washingtonredskins]

https://www.fox5dc.com/news/no-zero-policy-at-maryland-school-draws-scrutiny

 

POTOMAC, Md. (FOX 5 DC) - A Montgomery County high school has created its own grading policy, telling teachers they can no longer give students a grade of “zero” even if the student doesn’t do any work.

A source provided FOX 5 material from the presentation given to teachers on the “No Zero Policy” at Winston Churchill High School in Potomac.

 

I think I understand the rationale here...if you TRY, you should be rewarded a little bit more than someone who doesn't bother showing up or giving effort. But I still disagree with it. To me, more than the "everyone gets a trophy" argument that will come up, this is another indication that we're focusing on the wrong things in schools. Grades should show us what students have learned...period. It shouldn't be massaged or nuanced so nobody's future is impacted. If you get Bs through school, maybe you aren't meant for the Ivy Leagues...and that's perfectly fine!

 

Thoughts??

 

 

[Llevron]

I think our public school system has a long way to go to be even considered healthy for students to participate in. Im not sure what this is an example of. I get the rational like you said but I dont think this solves anything. The problem isnt that students are getting zeros its that our system allows for students to think its ok to get zeros. But then thats on the parents too. Its all pretty complicated and im not sure I really understand what the problem even is let alone how to fix it. But I know its broke. I know that. 

[Rocky21]

This seems kind of crazy to me. 

 

Under the school district’s policy, if a middle or high school student takes a test and gets every answer wrong, the grade is not a zero, it’s a 50 percent.

[Renegade7]

24 minutes ago, Rocky21 said:

This seems kind of crazy to me. 

 

Under the school district’s policy, if a middle or high school student takes a test and gets every answer wrong, the grade is not a zero, it’s a 50 percent.

 

I use Canvas in college so I can use the "What If" function, so i can see jus how much damage a zero does.  You make a valid point, i would say that if someone gets a zero on a test, that shouldnt be acceptable, and they should be allowed to retake it.  Because not only did the student fail, but so did the teacher.  Think about it, getting all the questions wrong putting that all on the student solves nothing.

 

We punish people for not turning in assignments on time by saying after a certain point they wont be accepted because it's not fair to the people that turned it in on time.  Understandable, but then theres no incentive to do the homework at all after a certain point. 

 

The compromise should always be to allow late work at the grade school level because of how much damage zeros can actually do to your grade, the difference between zero and 50% cannot be understated.  

 

Blaming parents has become the easy way out on this, if the parents dont get involved and the student fails out, then what?  Not the schools problem, okay, but the ramifications effect all of us anyway, now what? Their job is education regardless of the circumstances, they might be able to save more folks if they take that mentality.

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

We were doing that in Loudoun 15 years ago. Zeroes are stupid... kid doesn’t turn in an assignment and gets a zero, averaging it out mathematically it’s pretty worthless to them to even bother trying for the rest of the grading period (and by extension, school year and beyond). They’re pretty much screwed at that point.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

58 minutes ago, Llevron said:

I think our public school system has a long way to go to be even considered healthy for students to participate in. Im not sure what this is an example of. I get the rational like you said but I dont think this solves anything. The problem isnt that students are getting zeros its that our system allows for students to think its ok to get zeros. But then thats on the parents too. Its all pretty complicated and im not sure I really understand what the problem even is let alone how to fix it. But I know its broke. I know that. 

 

Correct. I think the problem is that people are so concerned with the outcome on paper and not the process of learning ****. Parents and students will negotiate to get a slightly better grade teaching kids that the end justifies the means. 

33 minutes ago, Sacks 'n' Stuff said:

We were doing that in Loudoun 15 years ago. Zeroes are stupid... kid doesn’t turn in an assignment and gets a zero, averaging it out mathematically it’s pretty worthless to them to even bother trying for the rest of the grading period (and by extension, school year and beyond). They’re pretty much screwed at that point.

 

Did you stop?? My kid damn sure had a zero for several weeks before finally turning something in. 

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

2 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

Correct. I think the problem is that people are so concerned with the outcome on paper and not the process of learning ****. Parents and students will negotiate to get a slightly better grade teaching kids that the end justifies the means. 

 

Did you stop?? My kid damn sure had a zero for several weeks before finally turning something in. 

Not sure. I had a long term sub job at a high school when I was in grad school. Don’t know if that was county policy or just that one school.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

I just think you should get what you earned and it should be mathematical, not manipulated. That doesn't mean that you can't have re-takes, etc. But just stating that the floor for any assignment or exam is a 50 seems bizarre to me. Why 50? 

 

My objection isn't because I want a kid buried with one grade, but rather that there are better ways to help him or her learn the material and improve their grades without setting this precedent. 

 

When I was in high school in the 1990s, we had a grading scale of 94-100 being an A. At some point I believe that's been lowered to 90-100 being an A (I could be wrong). To me, this is another example of slowly raising the floor. When will no correct answers become a 60? If it does, when will a 60 actually be a D+ or C- on the grading scale? 

 

I just don't think we're doing kids any favors...that's all. 

[tshile]

When I took the SATs we got points for putting our name on it.  *shrug*

 

our entire approach to public education seems wrong and inadequate. 

[TheDoyler23]

8 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

Correct. I think the problem is that people are so concerned with the outcome on paper and not the process of learning ****. Parents and students will negotiate to get a slightly better grade teaching kids that the end justifies the means. 

 

I have a buddy who teaches high school. He puts on his outline that he does not round up or respond to student/parent coercing. He does offer multiple extra credit assignments that have to be completed before grades are completed.

 

He's like, "My best students do all of them. Most of my low to average performing students do them.  My average to above average students don't, and their parents call me to try and raise their grade." 

[TD_washingtonredskins]

1 minute ago, TheDoyler23 said:

 

I have a buddy who teaches high school. He puts on his outline that he does not round up or respond to student/parent coercing. He does offer multiple extra credit assignments that have to be completed before grades are completed.

 

He's like, "My best students do all of them. Most of my low to average performing students do them.  My average to above average students don't, and their parents call me to try and raise their grade." 

 

And that's the way to do it...we don't have to let every misstep stay on a 14-year old's transcript. But, let's give them opportunities to LEARN the **** they need to learn and EARN the grade they want. I'm all about as many extra assignments as are necessary...at the end of the day, it's not the teacher's job to make getting good grades hard or easy, it's their job to help the kids learn something. 

[tshile]

4 minutes ago, TheDoyler23 said:

My average to above average students don't, and their parents call me to try and raise their grade." 

 

Bet they think they, and their children, are unique and special 

[Kosher Ham]

I think this is a horrible idea, you're taking away from the kids who actually do their work. 

[Destino]

I'm against the idea that reducing accountability and lowering expectations somehow helps children learn.  That's what this 50% floor looks like to me. 

 

 

[Vilandil Tasardur]

As a college professor, I offer 2 dates in my syllabus every semester where I will accept any previously missed work, no questions asked. There's ALWAYS someone who gets disproportionately screwed by having 3 exams in one week, or a dying grandparent, or a medical illness, or a car accident, or a sudden battle with homelessness or domestic violence or the list just goes on. The point is that, rather than arbitrarily deciding what I do or don't consider "excused", I just have two key dates where any late work can be made up, no questions asked, no explanation needed. If it appears in my grade book, it gets graded as if it was done on time. 

 

Does that "unfairly" punish the people who do their assignments on time? Maybe. I'll be honest, I don't give a ****. Students are in college to learn. If Student X does everything on time and gets their grade, and has learned the material, that's all that should matter to them. Whether or not Student Y didn't get it done on time but got a do-over shouldn't be any of their business. 

 

And with my system, everyone has the opportunity equally. Student X doesn't get to argue "but I had 3 exams and I still managed!". Okay, great, you managed. But you didn't have to, because you knew you had a do over if you needed it. 

[Destino]

I’m ok with giving kids a second chance to do the work or take the test, like others have said the goal is that they learn.  So long as they do the work and earn their way forward, I’m ok with it.  

[Riggo-toni]

Churchill is my alma mater. My mother taught there for a couple decades. She made some interesting observations.

 

When she first started out, most of the kids were children of doctors, lawyers, researchers, etc. As the area grew more affluent and housing skyrocketed, they were replaced by the children of restaurant owners and lobbyists and such, and the curriculum had to be watered down a bit. 

 

Then one of the junior high schools that fed into it adopted outcome based education, and the half of the kids who came from there were conspicuously less prepared for high school than their peers.

 

A couple years later, the better of the two junior high schools was closed for budget cuts. She said they subsequently had to purge a significant portion of previous material (my mom taught English), because students could no longer grasp concepts involving, for example, allegory or symbolism. Facts could be learned, but any kind of critical thinking was out the window.

[NoCalMike]

I don't really have an issue with a student getting a zero when they simply refuse or don't turn in work, but I also agree that maybe give them an opportunity to still turn in the work to get partial or even full credit.  

 

 

[tshile]

Out of curiosity, how much of this has to do with averages for the school systems and what that means for state/federal funding, or being appealing to parents looking to move into a better school district?

 

(I've spoke with enough college admissions people to know it doesn't matter to them, they're well aware of all the tricks school districts play and accommodate for them appropriately)

 

[Renegade7]

Cant get nothing past you, @tshile 

[TD_washingtonredskins]

17 minutes ago, NoCalMike said:

I don't really have an issue with a student getting a zero when they simply refuse or don't turn in work, but I also agree that maybe give them an opportunity to still turn in the work to get partial or even full credit.  

 

 

 

Agreed. 

 

In fact, I would say refusing to do the assignment or take the test would be more likely for me to warrant a 0 than trying but failing miserably. 

[tshile]

2 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

Cant get nothing past you, @tshile 

 

 

[Renegade7]

2 minutes ago, tshile said:

 

 

For clarification that was a compliment and I'm sad too expecting this to catch on.  If I had to guess if this was about money or kids feelings, I'm cynical like that now.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

5 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

For clarification that was a compliment and I'm sad too expecting this to catch on.  If I had to guess if this was about money or kids feelings, I'm cynical like that now.

 

It HAS to be one or the other...I don't really see any other likely cause for this. 

[tshile]

14 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

For clarification that was a compliment

oh, i honestly couldn't tell.

 

i thought i missed something and looked stupid