Owls0325

!!!!0mgz!!!! Trent Williams finally showed up

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10 hours ago, bakedtater1 said:

Why?..why would you do that..I mean ok so there's plenty of younger cheaper options but..what happened to continuity?

Sheriff is one of our best lineman but, that’s not saying much since our line sucks. I’m with the other guy, I’d be fine moving on from him.

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39 minutes ago, dyst said:

Sheriff is one of our best lineman but, that’s not saying much since our line sucks. I’m with the other guy, I’d be fine moving on from him.

 

How bad though are we willing to let the O line get?  I am ok with moving on from Trent.  but Scherff is young.   

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1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

How bad though are we willing to let the O line get?  I am ok with moving on from Trent.  but Scherff is young.   

 

I may be closer to @volsmet in the 2020 draft strategy. Looking at our current situation we have a severe deficiency at the OL, TE, OL philosophies, and Defensive philosophies. These issues for the most part can be rectified within a year, but not without making some moves. We have 2-3 assets available to us.

 

1. Trent Williams

2. Brandon Sherff

3. Morgan Moses

 

1. Trent is an obvious trade candidate and we blew it not trading him to Houston when we had the chance. Fortunately, there are alot of teams that have taken serious hits at the LT the past 2 weeks. Will we get the 2 first round bonanza offered again? Doubtful. But surely there will be offers available. I would still look for a 1st, 2nd, and pick swap or player somewhere.

 

2. Sherff has regressed a bit. Maybe its due to the injuries. Though i think that is due more to Moses than anything else. He is still a very very good guard that every team would love to have. Problem A is that he wants the moon, and i dont think we should shell out the kind of cash hes looking for. He's not Quenton Nelson. Problem B is that he is more of a pass blocking guard rather than a run blocking guard. Id rather have our guards be maulers. Of course this might be due to the inefficiencies of Morgan Moses. Could just be our offensive philosophy. We are getting serious number out of Keenum right now, so I really dont think Gruden and Obrien are at fault here.

 

3. Moses is and has always been a backup quality fringe starter.

 

Going forward this is the plan I would choose:

 

1. Trade Trent for a 1st, 2nd, and pick swap or player within the next 2 weeks.

2. Explore the market for Sherff. If a 1st and 2nd are available, Im taking it. Sherff is likely better than what we get in the draft. But the asking price for keeping Sherff right now is too high and im not sold on his ability to run block yet.

3. Fire Manusky and get Rob Ryan to recruit his brother to DC today.

4. Continue the plan with Haskins and wait until after the Bye before he is considered to start.

5. Throw the run game out the window from here on out and just go with the 2013 Saints offense of just uptempo passing and ignoring the run game completely.

5. Fire Callahan at the end of the season. Im done with hearing how good he is at OL, yet we cant run the ball more than 4 yards a game, and have lost 3 quarterbacks to injury due to missed protections. This dude should have our guys locked in, yet one is holding out, and another is talking far too much without backing it up

 

 

 

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TW is looking smarter and smarter for not participating in this dumpster fire of a team...

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1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

How bad though are we willing to let the O line get?  I am ok with moving on from Trent.  but Scherff is young.    

 

I agree with you.  Bad teams don't get better by letting their few good players who are good fits walk.  The only thing in the way of keeping Scherff is money.  We can afford to pay our good players who are good bets to play well because of age and ability.

 

We've got a young QB.  It's time to start building our OL, not deconstructing it, and Scherff is a worthwhile building block.

 

I know you're a PFF fan, and I generally like what they do too.  Their number grade system can be helpful for quantifying overall performance.  So let's use their grades to quantify what he have in Scherff, and what we need to get to where the dominant OLs of the NFL are.  According to their system, Brandon Scherff grades out to a 77.7 overall guard for the first four years of his career.  That's the number I got from combining their grades for all four seasons weighted by snap counts.  That's a pretty good grade for their system--Probowl level.

 

Let's take a look at the 2018 Patriots as an example of a dominant OL.  They got these grades for the 2018 season:

Trent Brown - 66.8 on 1090 snaps

Joe Thuney - 70.8 on 1120 snaps

David Andrews - 70.8 on 1104 snaps

Shaq Mason - 82.7 on 954 snaps

Marcus Cannon - 72.7 on 836 snaps

 

We can effectively set a baseline of 70 as the grade for good and 80 for elite, and we can say that you need at least four out of your five linemen reaching or bettering that 70 mark to field a championship caliber OL.  Scherff is not only a great bet to grade out better than the line for good, he's a good bet to approach that elite mark.  For out other guys:

 

- Roullier has averaged a 62.8 for his young career. 

- Moses has averaged a 71.0, but that number is propped up the grades of his very good second and third seasons and has taken a nosedive since. 

- Trent Williams's career average is probably somewhere in the mid to high 80's, but he's also probably not a factor for us any more.

- Flowers's average is 65.4

- Penn is an ancient stopgap and Christian doesn't have enough career snaps to be worth examining his grade yet.

 

Look at that group and accept that Trent is done here, and Scherff is the only good bet to routinely crack 70 over the next four seasons or so.  He's certainly the only good bet to approach Shaq Mason's grade.  And if we want to build a legitimately good OL, then we need to keep Scherff and find three more legit good players because we can not survive having four guys grading in the mid to low 60's around Scherff.  That's also saying nothing about the fact that lack of continueity in OL personnel is very costly and that, because of the nature of the position group, you can only work in one or two new OLs a season before performance usually starts to severely suffer.  And even still, one or two new faces on a good line can really diminish the unit's performance, as we're seeing with the Steelers this season compared to where they were last year.

 

Keeping Scherff is a no-brainer IMO.  We also need upgrades at both tackle spots and another one at either center or guard.

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It all depends on how good you think Scherff is, of course. If he’s asking to be the top paid guard, you better think he’s an elite player. I would take the money & the pick over paying an above average guard what Scherff is, reportedly, looking for. If Scherff was a FA, I wouldn’t want us to make him the top paid guard in the nfl, I’d rather the Giants do it than us.

 

The Oline class is great, I’ll take my chances in finding a better, overall, interior line with the money & pick. 

 

Speaking of the secretary of the interior, how about this Flowers guy. 

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34 minutes ago, volsmet said:

It all depends on how good you think Scherff is, of course. If he’s asking to be the top paid guard, you better think he’s an elite player. I would take the money & the pick over paying an above average guard what Scherff is, reportedly, looking for. If Scherff was a FA, I wouldn’t want us to make him the top paid guard in the nfl, I’d rather the Giants do it than us. 

  

The Oline class is great, I’ll take my chances in finding a better, overall, interior line with the money & pick. 

 

Speaking of the secretary of the interior, how about this Flowers guy.  

 

I'd pay Scherff what the market dictates because he's a safe bet to continue playing at a high level over the duration of the contract and we need players of his caliber in order to field a high end OL.

 

Flowers a far lesser player than Scherff.  We can live with one guy like him on the line, but we won't get good if we have to field a line with multiple guys like Flowers.

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1 hour ago, Skin'emAlive said:

 

I may be closer to @volsmet in the 2020 draft strategy. Looking at our current situation we have a severe deficiency at the OL, TE, OL philosophies, and Defensive philosophies. These issues for the most part can be rectified within a year, but not without making some moves. We have 2-3 assets available to us.

 

1. Trent Williams

2. Brandon Sherff

3. Morgan Moses

 

1. Trent is an obvious trade candidate and we blew it not trading him to Houston when we had the chance. Fortunately, there are alot of teams that have taken serious hits at the LT the past 2 weeks. Will we get the 2 first round bonanza offered again? Doubtful. But surely there will be offers available. I would still look for a 1st, 2nd, and pick swap or player somewhere.

 

2. Sherff has regressed a bit. Maybe its due to the injuries. Though i think that is due more to Moses than anything else. He is still a very very good guard that every team would love to have. Problem A is that he wants the moon, and i dont think we should shell out the kind of cash hes looking for. He's not Quenton Nelson. Problem B is that he is more of a pass blocking guard rather than a run blocking guard. Id rather have our guards be maulers. Of course this might be due to the inefficiencies of Morgan Moses. Could just be our offensive philosophy. We are getting serious number out of Keenum right now, so I really dont think Gruden and Obrien are at fault here.

 

3. Moses is and has always been a backup quality fringe starter.

 

Going forward this is the plan I would choose:

 

1. Trade Trent for a 1st, 2nd, and pick swap or player within the next 2 weeks.

2. Explore the market for Sherff. If a 1st and 2nd are available, Im taking it. Sherff is likely better than what we get in the draft. But the asking price for keeping Sherff right now is too high and im not sold on his ability to run block yet.

3. Fire Manusky and get Rob Ryan to recruit his brother to DC today.

4. Continue the plan with Haskins and wait until after the Bye before he is considered to start.

5. Throw the run game out the window from here on out and just go with the 2013 Saints offense of just uptempo passing and ignoring the run game completely.

5. Fire Callahan at the end of the season. Im done with hearing how good he is at OL, yet we cant run the ball more than 4 yards a game, and have lost 3 quarterbacks to injury due to missed protections. This dude should have our guys locked in, yet one is holding out, and another is talking far too much without backing it up

 

 

 

So you want to trade the only decent OL we got and still start Haskins??

 

Also If you think we’re getting that for Trent you’re nuts. I doubt there was ever an offer from Houston outside of Clowney straight up. I don’t know why you think they would offer a first and a second let alone two firsts.

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1 hour ago, illone said:

TW is looking smarter and smarter for not participating in this dumpster fire of a team...

 

I don't think anything that happens to the Redskins changes my perception of what Williams is doing. is there some karma that could be discussed since the guys in charge are idiots? Sure. 

 

But Trent Williams is still being a dick and has erased any notion that he's any type of team leader. Yes, he's allowed to do this...I'm not claiming otherwise. I just believe that doing it says a lot about his character and how much he values the other guys he plays with. 

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Seems to me like Scherff is heading towards playing under the tag next season. The new CBA parameters may dictate what kind of deal he gets thereafter, wherever that may be.

 

Back to Trent, we need to catch a bite from one of these LT needy teams. We simply have to be working on that get some picks in for trade chips.

 

Given the way we clearly loved all those Alabama players and have stopped at almost nothing to get them in the door, the next 'logical' move this FO will make to try and fight the current fire back is to trade for Minkah Fitz. 

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18 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

So you want to trade the only decent OL we got and still start Haskins??

 

Also If you think we’re getting that for Trent you’re nuts. I doubt there was ever an offer from Houston outside of Clowney straight up. I don’t know why you think they would offer a first and a second let alone two firsts.

 

No. I said Id look into trading Sherff, and would certainly trade Trent. If it were up to me, I wouldnt start Haskins until the final few games of the year. I want a high draft pick, and I dont want him injured. If the right moves are made, we will make waves next year. Serious waves.

 

Maybe you should go back and re-read this thread. People said we were crazy for thinking Trent was worth more than a second, and then Houston gives up two 1sts and a 2nd for Tunsil; who btw is looking **** ugly to no surprise at all.

 

1 hour ago, illone said:

TW is looking smarter and smarter for not participating in this dumpster fire of a team...

 

In what way. All he is doing is losing himself alot of money, respect, and time. Bruce very well could put the clamps on him and sit him for 2 years. Lets see how many teams are willing to pony up the contract he thinks hes worth when hes 35. If he were smart he would have announced that he wanted a trade long before it became a threat. Instead he waited until we had no options, and here we are. The line is protecting Case quite well inspite of it all. But its a dick move on his part, and Bruce doesnt really have to appease him ( even if I wish he would have taken the two 1sts that were on the table. )

Edited by Skin'emAlive
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Until Scherff gets someone better playing next to him than Morgan Moses, I am not going to be too harsh when Scherff makes a mistake or two.....

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12 minutes ago, NoCalMike said:

Until Scherff gets someone better playing next to him than Morgan Moses, I am not going to be too harsh when Scherff makes a mistake or two.....

 

I'm on the fence on this...

 

I don't want to evaluate Scherff based on a couple penalties. At the same time, I can't suddenly write off Moses as a bum. He has played pretty well for us, so it would be a jarring regression for him to be so bad now that he's causing teammates to get multiple penalties. 

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17 minutes ago, Skin'emAlive said:

Maybe you should go back and re-read this thread. People said we were crazy for thinking Trent was worth more than a second, and then Houston gives up two 1sts and a 2nd for Tunsil; who btw is looking **** ugly to no surprise at all.

Tunsil is worth way more than Trent - an aging, oft-injured, disgruntled lineman who can’t be bothered to play for the team he’s currently under contract for and who is one bad weed decision away from basically costing him the a large chunk of the rest of his career.

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TW holding out this year is interesting given that the Skins were rumored to be working on Scherff's contract which was going pay him a lot more than your left tackle.

 

 

Edited by HigSkin

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Just now, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

I'm on the fence on this...

 

I don't want to evaluate Scherff based on a couple penalties. At the same time, I can't suddenly write off Moses as a bum. He has played pretty well for us, so it would be a jarring regression for him to be so bad now that he's causing teammates to get multiple penalties. 

I really don’t think he’s played well for us AT ALL. I think the only reason people still hold a high opinion is because he had one decent season and has since been the only “durable” member of that line since. He’s really a liability and with a low dead cap hit after this season I highly suspect he won’t be on the team next year.

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2 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

I really don’t think he’s played well for us AT ALL. I think the only reason people still hold a high opinion is because he had one decent season and has since been the only “durable” member of that line since. He’s really a liability and with a low dead cap hit after this season I highly suspect he won’t be on the team next year.

 

I checked and it seems you're more accurate than I am. His PFF grades (I don't know a better way to rank OL) have dropped every year since 2015. Seems like 2015 and 2016 would be classified as "good" in that he had grades of 77.3 and 76.8. Then it dropped to 67.6 in 2017 and 63.9 last year. Not a great trajectory. 

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8 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

I don't want to evaluate Scherff based on a couple penalties. At the same time, I can't suddenly write off Moses as a bum. He has played pretty well for us, so it would be a jarring regression for him to be so bad now that he's causing teammates to get multiple penalties. 

 

He's a penalty machine....LOL

 

 

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44 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

I don't think anything that happens to the Redskins changes my perception of what Williams is doing. is there some karma that could be discussed since the guys in charge are idiots? Sure. 

 

But Trent Williams is still being a dick and has erased any notion that he's any type of team leader. Yes, he's allowed to do this...I'm not claiming otherwise. I just believe that doing it says a lot about his character and how much he values the other guys he plays with. 

 

 

Both things can be true.  I agree that he is being a dick, but he knows way more about the org than we do and most fans agree it's basically being run like a food truck without food.  Imagine what things look like from the inside...

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Interesting.

 

Maybe public opinion will sway Bruce Allen' s stance on Trent more than common sense ever could?

Edited by Unbias

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5 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

I like JP, but it isn't now time...it's BEEN time for a while now. 

 

 

I’ve been listening to JP for years.  I honestly don’t believe he’s a Redskin fan.  But you’re right.

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47 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

I'd pay Scherff what the market dictates because he's a safe bet to continue playing at a high level over the duration of the contract and we need players of his caliber in order to field a high end OL.

 

Flowers a far lesser player than Scherff.  We can live with one guy like him on the line, but we won't get good if we have to field a line with multiple guys like Flowers.

 

If Scherff was graded as a top 5 guard by the guys in the organization, then I’d go against my personal opinion & pay him. The middle of the line is the most important part of the game, if the people I trusted disagreed with me about how good he is, then I’d pay him ... the best way to get it right is to trust good people & get away from personal opinions that may be clouded by any number of issues. I’m not entirely certain that Scherff can’t be an elite player, but my feeling is that he isn’t going to be one & that would keep me from paying him elite money when I could save it and grab an elite talent in a loaded draft class; ... still, my conviction isn’t as strong as it was in moving on from Trent, particularly now that the young QB is here & priority 1 is protecting him. If we had an ES war room & had to make that decision, I’d not hesitate to trust you & others who had more conviction on the player.

 

The opportunity to get elite talent is rare, so I tend to lean towards the first & FA money, but ... at worst, Scherff is a good player & a piece you can trust to help give our young QB a chance to get the most out of the WRs/TEs & himself. 

 

Nothing would be worse than putting DH behind a line like Miami’s. DH is going to determine our next 5 years, I wouldn’t fight too hard against paying the proven guard ... even if my inclination was to go in another direction. We certainly can’t have DH getting hit like Luck/DW.

 

You typically don’t lose because you overpay good players. 

1 hour ago, PartyPosse said:

So you want to trade the only decent OL we got and still start Haskins??

 

Also If you think we’re getting that for Trent you’re nuts. I doubt there was ever an offer from Houston outside of Clowney straight up. I don’t know why you think they would offer a first and a second let alone two firsts.

 

An odd thing to doubt.

 

How much more sense does it make to start a rookie with 1 decent OL than with 0? 20%?

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