mhd24 Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 Hypothetically (Say the top 4 end up Cinci, NYJ, WAS, MIA), Say Cinci gets #1 and takes Tua/Burrow NYJ gets #2 and takes Young We are at 3 Miami is a 4 Do we take Tua/Burrow or swap with Miami and take Ogadah while accumulating picks (which Miami has in abundance). Keep in mind that I think Haskins is far lesser prospect than Burrow/Tua are. If the new coach (and hopefully GM) agree, then do you give up on Haskins (and get whatever like a 4th) and take the QB that remains. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 Some of Kiper's new rankings, looks like he's more down on Wirfs than most draft geeks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KDawg Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 I actually somewhat agree with @stevemcqueen1 here, with some caveats. If Haskins makes positive strides and IF Young is on the board when we pick, I can’t see a scenario where we should pass on him. If Haskins continues to look lost, things get more interesting. And not just with the idea of drafting a QB... trade options open significantly as well. There’s a lot to consider there. The rest of this season will be interesting. Even IF Haskins looks lost, there are veteran options that can be signed that would allow the team to be competitive. Obviously, we all want a franchise guy, but passing on Young just seems like such a mistake at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 COLUMBUS — The Heisman Trophy campaign and the most dominant individual season in college football is on hiatus: Chase Young is facing an indefinite suspension. Fresh off the finest performance of his career in a record-breaking win over Wisconsin, the Ohio State junior is now suddenly, shockingly unavailable for the nation’s top-ranked team heading into the final month of the regular season, according to multiple Lettermen Row sources. Poised to break the school’s single-season record with his next sack, the captain won’t be available to do it for the Buckeyes on Saturday against Maryland — and now the wait is on to see exactly how much time Young will miss. Ohio State confirmed the report on Friday morning, though exact details about the potential NCAA violation remain unclear at this point. Multiple sources have indicated that the program is optimistic that Young will be cleared to return to Buckeyes this season, but a resolution for the matter still hasn’t been reached. “Ohio State’s Chase Young will not play in this Saturday’s game between the Buckeyes and the Maryland Terrapins due to a possible NCAA issue from 2018 that the Department of Athletics is looking into,” a school statement said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 This Chase Young season is a freaking A Football Life documentary if I've ever seen one. Roller Coaster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KDawg Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 A year later, a kid is being punished. Hope it's worth it. The NCAA has some really hard to follow rules. I'm not going to **** on them like many. But it's really interesting how all of this goes down. As always, it all depends on what happened, too, of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhead36 Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 Meh, they all take money, he just got caught. Its not like he's beating women or kids or committing felonies. I'd still draft him in a heartbeat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KDawg Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 Yup. If it's a taking money thing, I don't see his draft stock plummeting. In fact, I see this as similar to Nick Bosa aside from the fact Nick's season ended due to injury. Just gonna get healed up and healthy. NFL is a business and his stock won't be effected by a monetary suspension. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HTTRDynasty Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 He went out with about as good of a performance as you can ever hope to go out on. That will stick in everyone’s minds. He’s still a guaranteed top 3 draft pick regardless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 Yeah NFL teams won't care if the suspension is related to contact with agents and getting paid. But it does suck that we don't get a full season of full time play to evaluate. Its never really a good thing to have four or five fewer games to look at, especially since he's going to be such a high pick. And a playoff run with matchups against better tackles would have been nice to see. Hopefully he gets back out onto the field soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 @Skinsinparadise I've been watching Austin Jackson the past few weeks. USC has had a great stretch of games over the last seven weeks and the next two should be good too. They've got four NFL guys on their offense this year. They have been a highly entertaining watch, particularly when Slovis has been quarterbacking. The Oregon and Colorado matchups were great. Great battles in the trenches and in the secondaries. I thought that Colorado looked pretty easy for Austin Jackson and that he was able to establish his superiority in that match up. Oregon was trickier. Much, much more physical of a battle. That was an angry game with lots of roughness, unsportsmanlike conduct, and targeting calls. A lot of dirty hits, including a few very dangerous plays that could have seriously injured Justin Herbert. I would say Jackson generally won the day against the Oregon edge, but he showed a lot of messy stuff and he got away clean with a couple of holds on reps where he got beat and they should have been sacks or minus ten yards. Most notably on that crazy first touchdown that Slovis threw where he seemed to wander around every part of the backfield between the hashes. I'll start with the issues I picked up on: - #1 high high pad level on a ton of snaps. He's got some knee bend issues for sure - Kick step is pretty rough. More of a backpedal than a clean bucket step & slide. The snap quickness is definitely there and there are a lot of good reps deep into games. But I can tell he's cheating, either to create depth against the edge or to overplay the inside counter with the intention of just bailing and running if the guy goes outside more often than you like to see. The latter leads to holding. A lot of snaps where he turns toward the ball and wants to long arm rushers. That's going to get him into trouble against NFL power and counters. There is some laziness in his footwork and an over-reliance on his strength and length to dominate inferior opponents at the collegiate level that just won't get the job done against the smart rushers in the NFL. - Following from that, he plays on his heels a lot and there are balance issues. He's not on the turf as much as Wirfs though. I think he's got really really strong legs and he can establish that wide stance and get his roots down even if he's playing high and not keeping his feet moving. - Second level and back side run blocking is aimless and unschooled. Advancing with his hands down and just kind of throws himself in the way of pursuing defenders or getting his hands in late. Just not really staying locked in when he's not the point of attack. You expect better accuracy on those move blocks from a guy with first round talent. And the few attempts at cut blocks from him that I saw were comical. I think it's clear that his college coaching has been very inferior to what the guys got at Georgia, Oregon, Iowa, Wisconsin etc. My general take is that he is a much, much rougher edged prospect than Andrew Thomas and Tristan Wirfs are. Definitely in pass pro, where those guys are smooth and NFL ready. I think his NFL OL coach is going to need to be a patient man and commit to him and not give up on teaching him. He's going to need to play for someone experienced like Callahan IMO. He also doesn't have the ridiculous speed and fluidity of Thomas and Wirfs. Those guys are about as good as it gets in terms of raw athleticism for an OL, and he's not in that class. But he is a fascinating player and I really like him. He's a football player playing football whereas Wirfs and Thomas give me a bit of a vibe that they're athletes playing football. There are times when Jackson just makes it look easy. He's got such easy functional power and he's just tough. Tough competitor who can eat up punches and win. His hand fighting is spectacular--best hands that I've seen in this year's class so far. So much speed and power in those things. You're just not going win those patty-cake fights against him because of how quickly he resets. You've got to be bringing heavy speed to power to the table as a rusher in order to get to him. You see guys get into his pads and get off that initial punch and still get dumped. Frequently. And when he gets out on run blocks and lands some of those little body blows you see guys sprawling. And when he latches onto you in that second level or on the edge, it is really really hard to disengage him. He is the kind of nasty block finisher that I love to watch, and he compares well in this regard to some of the passive play you see from Thomas and Wirfs. When he gives you a clean rep with proper bend, it's easy wins because the hands are good and the length is dominating. I wouldn't be surprised if the arm length is 35 or 36 inches. And the athleticism is very good. He's explosive and has a huge frame with very little sloppiness on it. Looks like a prototype NFL tackle and he's class of 2017 so he's still very young. I'm guessing he'll add at least another 15 pounds of good bulk before he's done physically maturing. I think he's a raw player with a high ceiling and that he is a good project with value in the late first or, ideally, early second round. I don't think he's a good option to be a rookie starter and that might scare teams away. But it wouldn't shock me if he eventually ends up being the best tackle from this year's class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 Some other thoughts on that USC vs Oregon game: - #78 DT on USC is a dirty player. He's talented but he can't keep playing the game like he did against Oregon. - Lenoir had an up and down game. He made a flashy INT with a long return on a play that should have been called back because of an egregious interference by the safety. But the play on the ball was still beautiful. And then he also got beat quite a few times and had one play where he just fell and took out the feet of the WR to prevent the touchdown. He's a midrounder but he's got NFL potential. Probably going to get looked at as a slot defender, or maybe even deep safety. - Juwaun Johnson had a coming out performance. He was spectacular. Showed off elite size, strength, and body control. Very dangerous red zone threat. Looked like friggin Brandon Marshall running around on those guys, jumping over them, and powering through tackles. If he stays healthy and Oregon gets this version of the guy moving forward, their offense is going to be a juggernaut. They could hang with any of the SEC teams and Ohio State/Clemson given the balance they can achieve and the way they dominate the line of scrimmage. The defense I'm not as sure about. But this version of Oregon comfortably beats that Auburn team if they played again. They are rolling now. - I like all three of those USC receivers and I think they all project to the NFL very cleanly at the positions they currently play for USC, although I could also see Vaughns thrive in the slot. They are outstanding competitors and alpha dog type players who really set the tone for that offense. Vaughns and Pittman are the stars, but St. Brown is also really good as the forgotten man in the mix. He is a hard running YAC threat that is fearless working the middle of the field and is a street fight for the DBs to get down. He gets a lot of the dirty work but makes the most of his opportunities. I think he's going to go back to school and next year he and Slovis could be one of the sport's star tandems. Pittman isn't quite as assertive as Vaughns, but the physical tools are superior. Such an easy, loping gait. And the big catch radius and high end ability to adjust to throws once they're in the air make him a very nice safety blanket for his QBs. He's a big time vertical threat who is one of those guys who is open even when he's not open. I've grown to love Vaughns. He is that dude. I was surprised at how physical he is given how skinny he is, but he's kind of like Ceedee Lamb in that he is more than the sum of his parts. He had a pretty ugly drop early in the Oregon game but he redeemed himself right after. A QB loves guys like him because he'll fight for you and dig out or go up and get lots of questionable throws and then he finds ways to get that little bit of yardage you need to keep the chains moving. He's not scared to work the middle and he gets a consistently clean release and you can trust him to be on time. Talent like Vaughns and Justin Jefferson potentially being available outside the first round is why we don't need to be spending a top five pick on Jerry Jeudy. He's legit, but the depth of talent in the class is unbelievable and we'll get way more value from trading down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 2 hours ago, KDawg said: I actually somewhat agree with @stevemcqueen1 here, with some caveats. If Haskins makes positive strides and IF Young is on the board when we pick, I can’t see a scenario where we should pass on him. If Haskins continues to look lost, things get more interesting. And not just with the idea of drafting a QB... trade options open significantly as well. There’s a lot to consider there. The rest of this season will be interesting. Even IF Haskins looks lost, there are veteran options that can be signed that would allow the team to be competitive. Obviously, we all want a franchise guy, but passing on Young just seems like such a mistake at this point. Haskins is a test of this organization's stability and capability of properly developing a quarterback prospect. If we waste him and move on to yet another top prospect, I honestly don't see how anyone could still expect the team to actually develop a QB. We will have demonstrated beyond any doubt that this organization provides a circumstance where it is not possible for a young QB to succeed. They absolutely need to make it work with Haskins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HTTRDynasty Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 12 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said: Haskins is a test of this organization's stability and capability of properly developing a quarterback prospect. If we waste him and move on to yet another top prospect, I honestly don't see how anyone could still expect the team to actually develop a QB. We will have demonstrated beyond any doubt that this organization provides a circumstance where it is not possible for a young QB to succeed. They absolutely need to make it work with Haskins. I don’t know about that. I’m a Haskins believer, but some of the blame would have to lie at the feet of the QB. Do you really think Russell Wilson wouldn’t have succeeded here if we had drafted him in the second round in 2012 instead of trading up for RG3? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 7 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said: I don’t know about that. I’m a Haskins believer, but some of the blame would have to lie at the feet of the QB. Do you really think Russell Wilson wouldn’t have succeeded here if we had drafted him in the second round in 2012 instead of trading up for RG3? I definitely don't given the fact that RGIII was an even greater prospect than Wilson was and we managed to ruin him. It takes stability, vision, commitment, support, and talent to develop a franchise QB. We haven't had any of that. We've had a toxic mix of outsized and insecure egos in the front office and coaching staff that led to counterproductive infighting and general instability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koolblue13 Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 I asked in the wrong thread. I'm working from 11 to 11 tomorrow and can watch games on my laptop all day. What should I watch and when? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 1 hour ago, stevemcqueen1 said: @Skinsinparadise I've been watching Austin Jackson the past few weeks. USC has had a great stretch of games over the last seven weeks and the next two should be good too. They've got four NFL guys on their offense this year. They have been a highly entertaining watch, particularly when Slovis has been quarterbacking. The Oregon and Colorado matchups were great. Great battles in the trenches and in the secondaries. Thanks. I've watched almost zero PAC 12 this year. So almost everything I know about any PAC 12 players are based on what i've read versus seeing it for myself. 2 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said: I asked in the wrong thread. I'm working from 11 to 11 tomorrow and can watch games on my laptop all day. What should I watch and when? The blockbuster is definitely Alabama-LSU at 3:30. Penn State-Minn at 12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HTTRDynasty Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 10 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said: I definitely don't given the fact that RGIII was an even greater prospect than Wilson was and we managed to ruin him. It takes stability, vision, commitment, support, and talent to develop a franchise QB. We haven't had any of that. We've had a toxic mix of outsized and insecure egos in the front office and coaching staff that led to counterproductive infighting and general instability. I don't want to turn this into an RGIII debate, but I think in hindsight, Wilson was the better pro prospect. He was much more developed at reading defenses and a much more accurate passer. GM's just foolishly knocked him because of his size. If he was the same height as RGIII, he likely would have gone ahead of him. My biggest concern with RGIII was that he wasn't built to sustain NFL-level hits, especially with him being such a straight-line runner. Every successful "running" QB in this league (Vick, Lamar Jackson, Newton, Wilson, etc.), has the "make-you-miss" ability that allow them to avoid taking major hits. RGIII has never had that ability, and he wasn't far enough in his development as a pocket QB to offset that concern, so he was always bound to suffer the consequences of that eventually. Back to my overall point: did Luck get drafted into a stable situation? Some players can transcend their environment. I believe Wilson would have done so here with the Shanahans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 3 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said: Back to my overall point: did Luck get drafted into a stable situation? Some players can transcend their environment. I believe Wilson would have done so here with the Shanahans. RGIII was a next level playmaker at the position with elite passing skills. He was one of the best prospects I've ever seen and I stand by that evaluation, despite the fact we ruined him. Unfortunately he got drafted into a disastrously bad situation. Team gave up the farm to get him while simultaneously getting hit with an unprecedented cap penalty and they drafted another ****ing quarterback in the midrounds of the same class, a move that immediately compromised the organization's commitment to him. And despite that he put up one of the best rookie seasons we've ever seen before getting hurt and having his injury mismanaged to disastrous consequence. And that's not even taking into consideration the highly toxic front office and coaching structure we had in place, that reared it's head the next year. Andrew Luck was the best QB prospect I'd ever seen. And I would hardly say he transcended the unstable circumstances of his organization since we got only four good seasons from a guy who should have been a Hall of Fame track player and one of the faces of the NFL. His career is a painful cautionary tale for the league. But despite a lousy GM prior to the very good one they have now, and coaching instability, his situation was way better than the one we provided for RGIII, both in terms of organizational stability and surrounding talent. It's a really long list of good prospects who got wasted by bad organizations. Particularly in the ten years from 2006 to 2015. The NFL is luck that so many good young quarterbacks have come into the league since 2016, and that the good coaches and teams have gotten their hands on them. There was only going to be so much time left that all of the Hall of Fame QBs who matriculated in from the late 90's and early 2000's could keep the lights on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 A couple more takes from some of the Pac 12 games two weeks ago: - Finally got to see a big Laviska Shenault game in real time when they played USC. Everyone keeps saying what a spectacular playmaker he is and that he's going to be an early first round pick and that just wasn't bearing out in what I'd seen in the many Colorado games I've been able to watch this year. He was finally productive in this one, but not really in a spectacular way. Mostly there was just that huge catch and run but even that was nothing special. The corner was out of position and there was no slot or safety help. It was basically a screen against a cover zero blitz where the corner inexplicably tried to play the ball. I don't like being this guy, and this is going to come off as hot-takey, but I think Shenault is being heavily overrated. I don't think he's a tough cover at all when he's playing on the outside and I don't think he provides a notable vertical threat. I think he's a big running back playing receiver who gets his by working no man's land, bullying slot defenders, feasting on off script plays where he gets a lot of time to uncover, and running hard after the catch. I don't think he can get any separation at all on comebacks and other outside breaks. I don't think he can punish anybody for playing with no cushion. I don't think he challenges anyone deep, and too often relies on refs to bail him out. And I think he's passive in contested catch situations. There is a reason that Colorado doesn't use him as a go-to receiver despite the fact he's getting early first round hype. There is a definitely place for him as a big slot in the NFL, but he is not a first round caliber receiver in a class like this IMO. I think all four of the Alabama receivers, Jefferson, Higgins, Lamb, and Vaughns are better than him. He is much closer to players like Collin Johnson and Brandon Aiyuk than he is to them. - Montez is an athlete playing quarterback right now, but he's an interesting project who demonstrates some appealing traits. That USC game was the first one of his that I'd seen where he really managed the pressure and saw the field well. The first one where I felt like I could see what people really like about him. He is interesting raw clay. I would love to see a team like New Orleans or New England draft him. San Diego or Green Bay. He's going to need several years in the oven, but there could be something there with him. - Washington State has a good young running back #21 who is outstanding catching the ball out of the backfield. Extension of the running game type of usage in that system. Only a sophomore so he's a 2021 prospect. He's not Christian McCaffery, but he's going to get those comparisons next year and not just as a lazy same-race comparison situation. You know the Patriots are just salivating at the chance to draft this kid. - Washington's center #56 is little for the position, but he is dogged. You have to love his motor and fight. He's fast too, and his quick feet really help him anchor vs superior size by constantly resetting because he's out there working. He works very hard for his leverage. There are times when he's the only one still battling at the line as the pocket collapsed around him. Low center of gravity with good contact balance. Second level blocking is his chance to shine because he can run and flip his hips and it gives him a chance to square up with guys who aren't longer than him. And when he gets a chance to finish he takes it. He will always face a size disadvantage in virtually every match up, and thus he's probably looking at late day three. But Rodney Hudson has made a very successful career of it. I will always root for overachieving try-hards like him to make it in spite of being small. He's a good player who plays well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HTTRDynasty Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 1 hour ago, stevemcqueen1 said: RGIII was a next level playmaker at the position with elite passing skills. He was one of the best prospects I've ever seen and I stand by that evaluation, despite the fact we ruined him. Unfortunately he got drafted into a disastrously bad situation. Team gave up the farm to get him while simultaneously getting hit with an unprecedented cap penalty and they drafted another ****ing quarterback in the midrounds of the same class, a move that immediately compromised the organization's commitment to him. And despite that he put up one of the best rookie seasons we've ever seen before getting hurt and having his injury mismanaged to disastrous consequence. And that's not even taking into consideration the highly toxic front office and coaching structure we had in place, that reared it's head the next year. This ignores a lot of RGIII's faults, but I'll refrain from going too far down that road. 1 hour ago, stevemcqueen1 said: Andrew Luck was the best QB prospect I'd ever seen. And I would hardly say he transcended the unstable circumstances of his organization since we got only four good seasons from a guy who should have been a Hall of Fame track player and one of the faces of the NFL. His career is a painful cautionary tale for the league. But despite a lousy GM prior to the very good one they have now, and coaching instability, his situation was way better than the one we provided for RGIII, both in terms of organizational stability and surrounding talent. I agree that Luck didn't reach the heights most expected... but I think we can agree he was able to attain an impressive level of individual success while he played, despite his organization's faults. That's why I say he transcended his organization's unstable circumstances. I think if their positions were reversed, Luck would have had just as much success here as he had on the Colts, if not more. He would have had a much better OL and likely would have avoided the serious injuries that sapped his love for the game and caused him to retire. Whereas, I doubt RGIII would have ever reached the level of success he had his rookie year if he were drafted by the Colts, especially behind that OL and with a non-innovative coach. 1 hour ago, stevemcqueen1 said: It's a really long list of good prospects who got wasted by bad organizations. Particularly in the ten years from 2006 to 2015. The NFL is luck that so many good young quarterbacks have come into the league since 2016, and that the good coaches and teams have gotten their hands on them. There was only going to be so much time left that all of the Hall of Fame QBs who matriculated in from the late 90's and early 2000's could keep the lights on. I agree. And I think organizational stability is huge for a young QB. But I also think a QB like Luck or Mahomes or Wilson would have done well on the Redskins regardless. I therefore think it's an exaggeration to say if we fail at developing Haskins, that would provide proof that "it is not possible for a young QB to succeed here". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
volsmet Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 5 hours ago, Koolblue13 said: What should I watch and when? Scouting purposes? 7 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said: I've grown to love Vaughns. He is that dude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.