Who should be the next head coach for the Skins

[ClaytoAli]

12 hours ago, goskins10 said:

 

Can we assume that is a typo? The most recent valuation of the team was at about $3.1B. So I am thinking you meant B not M. Not usually into pointing out typos as I am one of the worst ever. But this ones really changes the context. 

Yep!

[TheBlueIndian]

Still seems that we don't have enough pieces of the puzzle in place and some of the fanbase is ready to lose their minds.

 

Great idea, lets get rid of Jay because he didn't manage the clock the way you or I would have. Whatever, that is debatable at best especially given that we don't know exactly what is happening in these situations. I am speaking more specifically about the Texans game. I heard reporters and fans being overly critical about Jays decision to let the clock run down prior to getting the ball back, essentially deciding that his backup QB who hasn't taken a snap in an NFL regular season game for 4+ years might not be ready for the 2 minute drill just yet.

 

Folks need to calm down. We are still in a pretty good situation in spite of the complete absence of any of our projected starting offense this season. Lets see J Reid, VD, Moses, Doc and Chase are all that are left at this point. Bellichek would be hard pressed to muster 9-10 wins out of this offensive roster. If I were Jay I would be pissed they literally gutted the team and added little to no depth at critical positions. Really, did anyone really expect that Doctson was going to breakout and be a true #1 or that he would be able to play a full season. Was it even considered that Thompson would play a full season, what about Crowder  & P Rich ?

 

Hey don't look now but we are on borrowed time with J. Reid probably AP as well.

 

We are signing guys off the street to play O-line. RB depth was signed off the street last season. Lets not forget WR, our hopes for the future now lie with Mo Harris, wasn't he a UDFA ? Simms, Cobbs both UDFAS and a guy we selected with the last pick in the draft. Yeah, that sounds legit. Sorry I didn't mean to leave out Floyd and Quick who were picked up in season. Pretty remarkable that this team continues to fight in my estimation. Right now our biggest threats are Vernon, Adrian and Jordan. Just think about that for a minute, that's right let that sink in. I still think they can cobble together enough offense firepower to remain competitive enough to make the post season and that is due in large part to Jay.     

 

This offseason we addressed the woeful D only to completely ignore the offense, no I take that back WE MADE IT EXPONETALLY WORSE ! 

 

The FO has been riding Jay's coattails since day one. Once they started winning games they inexplicably decided to not only blow it up with the departure of DJAX, PG, KC but double down on stupid by relying on oft injured players and aging Vets. Is it any mystery that we find ourselves here now ?

 

While I agree that we need some organizational change this offseason, I don't think that lies at Jays feet. Get him the pieces he needs, if that means jettisoning some contracts, so be it.  

[Voice_of_Reason]

1 hour ago, OVCChairman said:

 

 

In fairness, Norv had Jimmy Johnson as a HC and the Trio.

 

Gruden had Marvin Lewis

Norv has been a successful OC at just about every stop since then.

[OVCChairman]

8 minutes ago, TheBlueIndian said:

Still seems that we don't have enough pieces of the puzzle in place and some of the fanbase is ready to lose their minds.

 

Great idea, lets get rid of Jay because he didn't manage the clock the way you or I would have. Whatever, that is debatable at best especially given that we don't know exactly what is happening in these situations. I am speaking more specifically about the Texans game. I heard reporters and fans being overly critical about Jays decision to let the clock run down prior to getting the ball back, essentially deciding that his backup QB who hasn't taken a snap in an NFL regular season game for 4+ years might not be ready for the 2 minute drill just yet.

 

Folks need to calm down. We are still in a pretty good situation in spite of the complete absence of any of our projected starting offense this season. Lets see J Reid, VD, Moses, Doc and Chase are all that are left at this point. Bellichek would be hard pressed to muster 9-10 wins out of this offensive roster. If I were Jay I would be pissed they literally gutted the team and added little to no depth at critical positions. Really, did anyone really expect that Doctson was going to breakout and be a true #1 or that he would be able to play a full season. Was it even considered that Thompson would play a full season, what about Crowder  & P Rich ?

 

Hey don't look now but we are on borrowed time with J. Reid probably AP as well.

 

We are signing guys off the street to play O-line. RB depth was signed off the street last season. Lets not forget WR, our hopes for the future now lie with Mo Harris, wasn't he a UDFA ? Simms, Cobbs both UDFAS and a guy we selected with the last pick in the draft. Yeah, that sounds legit. Sorry I didn't mean to leave out Floyd and Quick who were picked up in season. Pretty remarkable that this team continues to fight in my estimation. Right now our biggest threats are Vernon, Adrian and Jordan. Just think about that for a minute, that's right let that sink in. I still think they can cobble together enough offense firepower to remain competitive enough to make the post season and that is due in large part to Jay.     

 

This offseason we addressed the woeful D only to completely ignore the offense, no I take that back WE MADE IT EXPONETALLY WORSE ! 

 

The FO has been riding Jay's coattails since day one. Once they started winning games they inexplicably decided to not only blow it up with the departure of DJAX, PG, KC but double down on stupid by relying on oft injured players and aging Vets. Is it any mystery that we find ourselves here now ?

 

While I agree that we need some organizational change this offseason, I don't think that lies at Jays feet. Get him the pieces he needs, if that means jettisoning some contracts, so be it.  

 

 

I'm assuming you're talking about J. REED.. as in Jordan REED?  

 

As far as Colt and the 2 minute drill.... are you suggesting that he was conceding the win because he didn't want to put the stress of a 2 min drill on Colt?  Had he called the timeout, Colt has an additional 20 - 30 seconds to work... that REDUCES the pressure.  Gruden has found his way to mediocrity with a makeshift team.. yes.  But he's also made mistakes that have completely held the team back.   

 

We've been signing guys off the streets for a couple years now, and he consistently doesn't change his game plan to help that.  We're running empty backfield on 3rd and 1, allowing the defense to completely sell out on the pass against our O-line.  We're hardly running RB screens anymore.  The worst kept secret in the NFL is that if you're having O-line issues, get them moving FORWARD.  That doesn't mean you run directly at the D-tackle.  That means you run off tackle... sweep.... toss.... draw plays.  You get them firing off the line attacking, not playing pass coverage looks and trying to run out of them.  You give them help.  Line VD or Sprinkle up at FB and run out of the I.  Put an extra TE on the line, not split wide.  

 

We had to burn 3 timeouts in the 3rd quarter a couple games ago because we had poor personnel changes.  Gruden said that was on him because 'he thought he hit the button' but didnt.  Come on, these are basic things that a coach needs to be able to understand.  

 

CT got hurt BECAUSE OF GRUDEN.  His initial injury (as another poster pointed out) was in garbage time vs Arizona where he ran a route over the middle and got blown up.  Why is CT of all people playing in garbage time and going out on a pass route?  

 

Alex Smith got hurt on a blitz where he got crunched between a DB and J.J. Watt.  J.J. Watt was lined up one on one vs Morgan Moses with 2 WR out to the right side of the formation and a WR and TE to the other.  The RB went out on a short route.  Why wasn't there a TE there to help?  I'll say I don't know if the RB missed the blitz or if it was a playcall, but it's a schematic flaw that set up Smith to get killed.  A hobbled Moses vs JJ on 3rd and 9 with no help is ridiculous.

 

On 3rd and 1 vs ATL we put Smith in shotgun with ZERO RB in the backfield.  That is unacceptable.  LUCKILY we converted a very difficult catch by Harris to get the 1st.

 

These are a couple examples of the things that Gruden does on Sunday that proves he's not HC level.  He's a really good OC, as he can draw up great plays, he just can't figure out WHEN to call them.   There's routinely NO adjustments to the offense with in a game.  A play will work and we will abandon it.  A play won't work and we keep running it.  

 

I promise you that I was on your side of the argument for 2 years before this one, and I can't unsee the stuff I see within a game from him. 

 

27 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Norv has been a successful OC at just about every stop since then.

 

 

True...

[Boss_Hogg]

I rather have Bruce Allen pick the next coach than anyone of us on ES or twitter

 

Sad

[zCommander]

Mike McCarthy wouldn't be a bad choice next year if Gruden can't get the team into the playoff this year. 

[MartinC]

16 minutes ago, OVCChairman said:

 

Alex Smith got hurt on a blitz where he got crunched between a DB and J.J. Watt.  J.J. Watt was lined up one on one vs Morgan Moses with 2 WR out to the right side of the formation and a WR and TE to the other.  The RB went out on a short route.  Why wasn't there a TE there to help?  I'll say I don't know if the RB missed the blitz or if it was a playcall, but it's a schematic flaw that set up Smith to get killed.  A hobbled Moses vs JJ on 3rd and 9 with no help is ridiculous.

 

Alex was hurt on a blown blitz pick up by the back. We blew an earlier pick up as well. Thats one area were CT has really been missed. It was not a schematic flaw.

 

16 minutes ago, OVCChairman said:

On 3rd and 1 vs ATL we put Smith in shotgun with ZERO RB in the backfield.  That is unacceptable.  LUCKILY we converted a very difficult catch by Harris to get the 1st.

 

 

Every team in the NFL uses empty backfield. Why is it unacceptable?

10 minutes ago, Boss_Hogg said:

I rather have Bruce Allen pick the next coach than anyone of us on ES or twitter

 

Sad

 

This is not a high bar.

[OVCChairman]

15 minutes ago, MartinC said:

 

Alex was hurt on a blown blitz pick up by the back. We blew an earlier pick up as well. Thats one area were CT has really been missed. It was not a schematic flaw.

 

 

Every team in the NFL uses empty backfield. Why is it unacceptable?

 

This is not a high bar.

 

 

The schematic flaw was Moses vs JJ one on one on 3rd and long.  Watt got there at the same time the DB did.  If Watt isn't there, Smith isn't hurt.  I also made mention that I can't see the play call so I'm not sure whether it was drawn up for the back to go left of the center into a route or if he was responsible for the blitzer. 

 

It's unacceptable when you have a beaten and battered line and you have Adrian Peterson on your roster.  No threat to run allows the defense to key on pass.  You've just made yourself 1 dimensional on one of the best down and distances you can face.  3rd and 1 opens the ENTIRE playbook against a defense, by going empty set you take half of it away before you even snap the ball.  

 

[TD_washingtonredskins]

1 hour ago, zskins said:

Mike McCarthy wouldn't be a bad choice next year if Gruden can't get the team into the playoff this year. 

 

I think he'd be a horrible choice. He's done so little with that team. Some of this is personnel for sure, but it's criminal that he hasn't gotten an Aaron Roders-led team to more than one Super Bowl. I think every ounce of success that team has is whatever ARod can squeeze out himself. 

[zCommander]

2 hours ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

I think he'd be a horrible choice. He's done so little with that team. Some of this is personnel for sure, but it's criminal that he hasn't gotten an Aaron Roders-led team to more than one Super Bowl. I think every ounce of success that team has is whatever ARod can squeeze out himself. 

 

I know what you are saying but sometimes you just fall in a rut and just need a new start with different and new talent. But the question one should really ask is would he be an upgrade over Gruden though?

 

 

[MartinC]

3 hours ago, OVCChairman said:

 

 

It's unacceptable when you have a beaten and battered line and you have Adrian Peterson on your roster.  No threat to run allows the defense to key on pass.  You've just made yourself 1 dimensional on one of the best down and distances you can face.  3rd and 1 opens the ENTIRE playbook against a defense, by going empty set you take half of it away before you even snap the ball.  

 

 

I'm with you on being in gun at all on 3rd and 1 or goalline - it's not something I would ever do. But its a league wide trend, you see it from just about every team every game.

 

On the blitz pick up Gruden was asked about that in the presser after the game and confirmed it was a blown assignment. 

[OVCChairman]

1 minute ago, MartinC said:

 

I'm with you on being in gun at all on 3rd and 1 or goalline - it's not something I would ever do. But its a league wide trend, you see it from just about every team every game.

 

 

Given the right players on the field... I'd be ok with it.  I'd almost be ok with it with THIS team if we had a full O-line, but we can't put a playbook in place in August, go through what we've gone through, and expect it to work in November.  There's just no adjustment or flexibility.  Jay has a mindset and mentality and we're either going to win with it, or we're gonna lose with it.  

[MartinC]

2 hours ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

I think he'd be a horrible choice. He's done so little with that team. Some of this is personnel for sure, but it's criminal that he hasn't gotten an Aaron Roders-led team to more than one Super Bowl. I think every ounce of success that team has is whatever ARod can squeeze out himself. 

 

Green Bay might be the worst offense in the league when you consider who they have at QB.

 

Rodgers has become part of the problem as well as a result IMO. The offense is so vanilla with so little disguise or innovation he holds the ball and try;s to create outside the scheme - which in turn means the scheme, such as it is, gets further compromised.

5 minutes ago, OVCChairman said:

 

 

Given the right players on the field... I'd be ok with it.  I'd almost be ok with it with THIS team if we had a full O-line, but we can't put a playbook in place in August, go through what we've gone through, and expect it to work in November.  There's just no adjustment or flexibility.  Jay has a mindset and mentality and we're either going to win with it, or we're gonna lose with it.  

 

Going empty and spreading out the defense can actually help an offensive line - if the play calling is right. Going empty makes it easier to dictate and identify who can and can't rush which simplifies the ID of blocking assignments and getting the ball out quick takes pressure of your pass pro.

 

(I would never do it on 3rd and short though. Just hand the ball off to AP and tell them to hurry up moving the chains.)

 

3 step drops out of gun along with slow developing routes however are probably not the way to go.

[OVCChairman]

12 minutes ago, MartinC said:

Going empty and spreading out the defense can actually help an offensive line - if the play calling is right. Going empty makes it easier to dictate and identify who can and can't rush which simplifies the ID of blocking assignments and getting the ball out quick takes pressure of your pass rush.

 

(I would never do it on 3rd and short though. Just hand the ball off to AP and tell them to hurry up moving the chains.)

 

3 step drops out of gun along with slow developing routes however are probably not the way to go.

 

 

Thats the part that kills me.  Our identity is power and controlling the LOS, then we put AP on the bench on 3rd and short.  I killed Jay for doing it last year against N.O. but we weren't running Peterson... 

 

It's not hard to defend when you know that there's no threat coming out of the backfield.. even if you want to pass.  At least if you want to do that but put Bibbs back there with him, it forces the ILB to stay downhill and watch the flat.  

[MartinC]

Just now, OVCChairman said:

 

It's not hard to defend when you know that there's no threat coming out of the backfield.. even if you want to pass.  At least if you want to do that but put Bibbs back there with him, it forces the ILB to stay downhill and watch the flat.  

 

The counter argument to that is if you motion the back out it moves a potential rusher out of the box and it makes the defense declare its coverage. 

 

If you have a back out wide and he ends up being covered by a corner its zone. If he is covered by a LB or safety its man. Your protection calls and hot read follow on.

[OVCChairman]

13 minutes ago, MartinC said:

 

The counter argument to that is if you motion the back out it moves a potential rusher out of the box and it makes the defense declare its coverage. 

 

If you have a back out wide and he ends up being covered by a corner its zone. If he is covered by a LB or safety its man. Your protection calls and hot read follow on.

 

 

but we didnt motion a back out... there was no RB in the game if I remember correctly.  I fully get shifting the back out as a tell, or even as a mismatch, but we went flat out, empty set straight from the huddle, that tells you nothing other than it's a pass or a QB draw.  

[Renegade7]

2 hours ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

I think he'd be a horrible choice. He's done so little with that team. Some of this is personnel for sure, but it's criminal that he hasn't gotten an Aaron Roders-led team to more than one Super Bowl. I think every ounce of success that team has is whatever ARod can squeeze out himself. 

 

You answered your own question with personnel around Rodgers.  Rodgers is carrying the team, not the system, system works we've seen it down right unstoppable in regards to ingenuity and getting people open. 

 

I can't think of many teams outside Steelers that for most part refuse to be players in free agency and still perennial super bowl contenders, the team Packers beat for Rodgers one ring.  I don't think McCarthy hits on enough if his picks, but without equal amount of free agents to fill holes, they are competing with hand tired behind their back.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Just now, Renegade7 said:

 

You answered your own question with personnel around Rodgers.  Rodgers is carrying the team, not the system, system works we've seen it down right unstoppable in regards to ingenuity and getting people open. 

 

I can't think of many teams outside Steelers that for most part refuse to be players in free agency and still perennial super bowl contenders, the team Packers beat for Rodgers one ring.  I don't think McCarthy hits on enough if his picks, but without equal amount of free agents to fill holes, they are competing with hand tired behind their back.

 

So, let me ask this then...

 

What has McCarthy done, outside of the one magical wild-card-run through the Super Bowl almost a decade ago, to justify himself as a viable head coaching candidate? If you want to say that his teams don't have enough talent to succeed, you would know better than me. But what do you see in him that makes you think he'd be a good hire here?

[MartinC]

13 minutes ago, OVCChairman said:

 

 

but we didnt motion a back out... there was no RB in the game if I remember correctly.  I fully get shifting the back out as a tell, or even as a mismatch, but we went flat out, empty set straight from the huddle, that tells you nothing other than it's a pass or a QB draw.  

 

TBH can't recall the personnel grouping.

 

You CAN get creative out of that formation with jet sweeps etc to give a run threat without a back (you see lots of College teams do that). But clearly that is not something we have shown any inclination to do. 

 

On a related topic I think Harris must have run a marathon distance by this point doing fake jet sweep motion without ever getting a handoff or being targeted on a pass off that motion. At this point either hand it off to him at least once to show its real or stop doing it!!

 

But generally I don't personally have any issue with using empty even if you line up with a TE and 4 WR's right out of the huddle - just not on short yardage or goalline. 

5 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

You answered your own question with personnel around Rodgers.  Rodgers is carrying the team, not the system, system works we've seen it down right unstoppable in regards to ingenuity and getting people open. 

 

 

I'm not sure their system does work anymore. It's not really changed that much from when Favre was there - I think it's pretty stale.

 

To be fair Rodgers freelances so much it's hard to tell what the system actually is at some times.

[Voice_of_Reason]

6 hours ago, Wildbunny said:

Well if Jay is fired and Bruce stays then that is the scariest thought I've read around here for quite some time.

 

If you want to kill Jay to shot Bruce down. Fine, go ahead. But Jay being the scapegoat will take us backward fast as you'll probably won't find a great coach to come here.

 

You seem fine watching seasons of crappy football, which I really doubt, I'm not sure I want to lose time struggling to reach 5-11 for a few years then to get rid of Bruce.

 

If you can Jay then you take Bruce with him. Otherwise it would be a terrible mistake.

I had bad phrasing when I said I didn't care if Bruce stayed or left.  That's not true.  Bruce has to go, and is at the root of the problems when it comes to football operations.

 

That said, regardless of if Bruce stays or goes, Jay needs to go. 

 

The ideal situation is if both of them go, and Dan hires, either from within or outside, somebody more competent to run the football ops, who then selects a good head coach, and we move on with life. I think if they lose to the Eagles and Giants, this is what we will get. 

 

Second on the list of likely possibilities is Jay going and Bruce getting another shot.  Who knows, 3rd times a charm?  I really don't want to see this at all, and I think we'd end up with Zorn again.  But it would be very Dan to do this. 

 

The worst case scenario is if they both come back.  Because if that's the case, we're going go to be 8-8 indefinitely, and it's going to teeter on the brink of regime change vs. stay the course.  How many 8-8 years and excuses for both the coaching and personnel management do we have to suffer through?

 

For me, and maybe it's just me, if you're not going to contend for the playoffs or superbowl, then 8-8 is actually worse than 2-14. Either you are in it to win it, or you're not.  And if you're not, you might as well suck to high heavens, because finishing 8-8 and missing the playoffs gets you nothing at all. There actually is a prize for second place (you win the Conference Championship), but there isn't a prize for 13th place if you miss the playoffs.  Hell, even a 9-7 division championship followed by a playoff loss is really "meh."

 

Maybe it's just the time I grew up in when the 'Skins went to 5 championship games, won 4 of them and 3 SBs in a 12 year span.  If you're not putting yourself in position to win the SB, then I don't really care if they lose 8 or 14 games. 

 

I want them to get good enough to compete with the elite teams.  They're not there, and neither Jay nor Bruce are the guys to get them there, so they both need to go.  Hopefully together, but if not, then I'd take either one. 

 

Interesting thought (which might surprise some people): In the most unlikely scenario that Bruce is shown the door but not Jay, I would be intrigued to see how he did with a different GM.  My guess is 8-8.  But I would watch that movie with interest to see if Jay truly is who I think he is, or maybe I'm wrong and it's really all on Bruce.  Now, I'd prefer NOT to watch that movie, I'd prefer a clean slate from both GM and HC, but if Bruce is out and not Jay, I'd at least be open to the idea he could do better next year. 

 

 

 

[Renegade7]

2 minutes ago, MartinC said:

 

I'm not sure their system does work anymore. It's not really changed that much from when Favre was there - I think it's pretty stale.

 

To be fair Rodgers freelances so much it's hard to tell what the system actually is at some times.

 

McCarthy has pulled some rabbits out in regards to formations and players out of position, but without a running game or legit WRs, the whole situation looks mortal to me now.

 

Think I'm starting to notice that about Rodgers wanting to do his own thing or overriding the coach is getting worse out of frustration that they aren't having same success with less pieces.  You'd think that'd be a "no ****" comment, but they look ready to take Rodgers side and burn that team to the ground.  In the meantime, Rodgers has taken the trust he earned to do what was best pre-play and going too far with it.  Rodgers trying to fix it on his own is now just as bad as McCarthy not being able to figure it out.

 

Perfect example of a franchise facing adversity and cannibalizing itself.  They are a Rodgers collarbone away from being the new Browns, who the hell is gonna want to play in Green Bay without a QB there?

[OVCChairman]

12 minutes ago, MartinC said:

 

 

But generally I don't personally have any issue with using empty even if you line up with a TE and 4 WR's right out of the huddle - just not on short yardage or goalline. 

 

 

 

 

That was my original point

[RemoveSnyder]

The whole league has gone college offense in 2018. There's been a definite sea change in this league year, in particular. 

 

And there's no shortage of air raid and/or spread coaches available this offseason, especially so from the college game, whose prospects in the NFL were never more clear and opportune than now. 

[MartinC]

2 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

McCarthy has pulled some rabbits out in regards to formations and players out of position, but without a running game or legit WRs, the whole situation looks mortal to me now.

 

Davante Adams is a really good receiver. Not much behind him with Cobb looking like he is finished - but Adams is far and away better than anything the Redskins have. Jimmy Graham is not what he was but is not chopped liver either.

 

2 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

Think I'm starting to notice that about Rodgers wanting to do his own thing or overriding the coach is getting worse out of frustration that they aren't having same success with less pieces.  You'd think that'd be a "no ****" comment, but they look ready to take Rodgers side and burn that team to the ground.  In the meantime, Rodgers has taken the trust he earned to do what was best pre-play and going too far with it.  Rodgers trying to fix it on his own is now just as bad as McCarthy not being able to figure it out.

 

Some of the responsibility for this falls on the head coach though. In fact a lot of it. Even with a QB the stature of Rodgers you have to pull him into a private film session and tell him this bull**** has to stop. If he cant do that and Rodgers is running the offense what does that say about the HC and OC?

[JSSkinz]

4 hours ago, zskins said:

Mike McCarthy wouldn't be a bad choice next year if Gruden can't get the team into the playoff this year. 

Great, another underachieving coach, with all due respect please keep him away.