Riggo-toni Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 I've read a few of Ehrman's books including Misquoting Jesus, and listened to several of his lecture courses sold by the Teaching Company. The lecture series tend to repeat a lot of the same content. If you want a scholarly approach to understanding the creation of the Old Testament, Who Wrote the Bible by Friedman is a very good starting point. It deals with the documentary hypothesis - something first proposed in the 19th century by Wellhausen - but revises certain tenets and dates in light of further research. Essentially, the documentary hypothesis postulates that there were competing versions of stories written by northern and southern writers, along with later monotheistic reformers and Jerusalem-centric priests. All these sources were eventually stitched together and edited after the return from exile, probably by Ezra. It's an easier and more interesting read than it sounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zguy28 Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 28 minutes ago, Renegade7 said: For clarification, are you saying you don't feel God toned it down in the NT compared to OT? If you can explain what you mean by that, I'd appreciate it, because he made a new covenant and changed his demands and expectations from us (at least that's the way I took it and others have explained to me). I was just saying that God is the same always. Just because there are two main biblical covenants (there are actually more e.g. Abraham, Noah, David...) doesn't mean God is different. This article from,Desiring God has a good explanation of three main Protestant views of theology. https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/what-does-john-piper-believe-about-dispensationalism-covenant-theology-and-new-covenant-theology 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 19 hours ago, Predicto said: If salvation can only come to those who were raised in the correct faith, the system is fundamentally unfair - and fundamental unfairness is the anthesis of the alleged perfection of God. In my view, if you are going to go monthestic and be fair to everyone in the world, you gotta end up with something like Bahai. Not sure that there is actually a contradiction there. Christians haven't believed that God is necessarily just in all his works. The belief that people are born damned would supersede any belief that everyone must have an equal opportunity at salvation. I think any Christian would readily accept that this world is not perfect. And evangelizing the people who weren't born into the faith has always been the core mission of Christianity. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zguy28 Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 14 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said: Not sure that there is actually a contradiction there. Christians haven't believed that God is necessarily just in all his works. The belief that people are born damned would supersede any belief that everyone must have an equal opportunity at salvation. I think any Christian would readily accept that this world is not perfect. And evangelizing the people who weren't born into the faith has always been the core mission of Christianity. I would differ only on the bolded (which seems to contradict the rest of your post ironically) and say God (in Christianity) is perfectly just, since as you stated people are born in a state of sin (lawbreaking), and therefore any negative judgement is just (since the Judge Himself is the Lawmaker). As a Calvinist Christian, I also believe in Unconditional Election and this excerpt gets to root of the contention on fairness: Quote Despite God’s loving grace, no one would believe in Him on his own (Romans 3:10–18). God has to draw us to Himself in order for us to believe (John 6:44). God does not draw everyone, but only certain people He has sovereignly chosen (Romans 8:29–30; Ephesians 1:5, 11). This does not seem “fair” in the eyes of those who believe fairness requires everyone to be treated exactly the same way. In election, it appears that God is not treating all people equally. However, God does not have to choose anyone. Again, it would be entirely fair for everyone to spend eternity in hell. God’s saving some is not unfair to those who remain unsaved, as they are receiving precisely what they deserve. https://www.gotquestions.org/is-God-fair.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 1 minute ago, Zguy28 said: I would differ only on the bolded (which seems to contradict the rest of your post ironically) and say God (in Christianity) is perfectly just, since as you stated people are born in a state of sin (lawbreaking), and therefore any negative judgement is just (since the Judge Himself is the Lawmaker). As a Calvinist Christian, I also believe in Unconditional Election and this excerpt gets to root of the contention on fairness: Yeah I was stating it wrong. I was tackling Predicto's premise that, for God to be perfectly just, then all people must receive the same opportunity at salvation and I was using his terms. We were really talking about equality rather than justice. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thinwhiteduke Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 (edited) 6 hours ago, Renegade7 said: I get where you're coming from, but this is a thread about what YOU believe, not going after what others believe. The thread will fall apart if we start attacking each other, so please stop quoting people in here if that's how you're going to address their stances. He recommended a book on the topic of suffering, why not just check that out and get back to us? I didn't attack or insult anyone. I questioned the idea of guilt. Why would I look at a book defending a falsehood, to an answer I already know. If religion is false ,all books based on religion are false. Rationalizing suffering is only what a good slave does. Edited March 28, 2018 by thinwhiteduke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted March 28, 2018 Author Share Posted March 28, 2018 27 minutes ago, thinwhiteduke said: I didn't attack or insult anyone. I questioned the idea of guilt. Why would I look at a book defending a falsehood, to an answer I already know. If religion is false ,all books based on religion are false. Rationalizing suffering is only what a good slave does. You say you're not insulting anyone and then you call me a slave? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thinwhiteduke Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 What do you believe (religion)??? I don't BELIEVE anything anymore. It's a useless filler word in the English language. Something either exists or it doesnt. Same goes for the word faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCB Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llevron Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 10 minutes ago, Renegade7 said: You say you're not insulting anyone and then you call me a slave? Chill. Check who you are talking too. Hes not capable of much more than what hes bringing to the table right now. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zguy28 Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 10 minutes ago, thinwhiteduke said: What do you believe (religion)??? I don't BELIEVE anything anymore. It's a useless filler word in the English language. Something either exists or it doesnt. Same goes for the word faith. I try to see the best in people who I come across, but God forgive me, sometimes there are exceptions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thinwhiteduke Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 4 minutes ago, Renegade7 said: You say you're not insulting anyone and then you call me a slave? No, I'm saying what the Bible is telling you how to think. The bible basically says - be a good slave. Don't retaliate like a normal sane person would. Oh no, don't do that. Enjoy your whips and chains like a good doggy. The bible is just a creative wording to let evil continue to be evil with no one confronting it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gamebreaker Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 Just now, thinwhiteduke said: No, I'm saying what the Bible is telling you how to think. The bible basically says - be a good slave. Don't retaliate like a normal sane person would. Oh no, don't do that. Enjoy your whips and chains like a good doggy. The bible is just a creative wording to let evil continue to be evil with no one confronting it. So.....you seem to not understand the point of this thread. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The 12th Commandment Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 I checked agnostic and I'm glad there's such a succinct word to describe my lack of religion. Can't wrap my head around blind faith and I probably lean towards the when you're dead you're dead camp but I can't be absolutely sure of it. Atheists, it seems to me, have as much blind faith as the faithful. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted March 28, 2018 Author Share Posted March 28, 2018 6 minutes ago, thinwhiteduke said: No, I'm saying what the Bible is telling you how to think. The bible basically says - be a good slave. Don't retaliate like a normal sane person would. Oh no, don't do that. Enjoy your whips and chains like a good doggy. The bible is just a creative wording to let evil continue to be evil with no one confronting it. I'm not going to respond to you anymore in this thread and I recommend everyone do the same. You have a problem, send me a PM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thinwhiteduke Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 3 minutes ago, Zguy28 said: I try to see the best in people who I come across, but God forgive me, sometimes there are exceptions. Your point? I made a comment about the perception of words. Where does that bother you in relation to me? It was a cold, impersonal (didn't point a finger at anyone ) viewpoint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llevron Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 Dont feed the troll Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thinwhiteduke Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Gamebreaker said: So.....you seem to not understand the point of this thread. I'm telling you what I believe. What's the point of just saying what you believe without the ability to confront, address or challenge it? Hell, lol I just gave you a whole knew perspective on the creation of the English language and meaningless words. And I did it without insulting anyone. So stop complaining Edited March 28, 2018 by thinwhiteduke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadySkinsFan Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 Ignore is your friend. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted March 28, 2018 Author Share Posted March 28, 2018 4 minutes ago, KAOSkins said: Atheists, it seems to me, have as much blind faith as the faithful. @Bang alluded to it in that none of us are truly sure until we know for certain. Sometimes I wonder how people can be so sure about something so uncomfortable as ceasing to exist, but I have to respect that way of thinking if I want them to respect mine. I believe we both said that if we're wrong, so be it, we both believe what we're doing is the right thing, and that's fine, it really is (at least is should be). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thinwhiteduke Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 7 minutes ago, Llevron said: Dont feed the troll Sigh....Since when is defining belief, trolling? Nevermind Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llevron Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Renegade7 said: @Bang alluded to it in that none of us are truly sure until we know for certain. Sometimes I wonder how people can be so sure about something so uncomfortable as ceasing to exist, but I have to respect that way of thinking if I want them to respect mine. I believe we both said that if we're wrong, so be it, we both believe what we're doing is the right thing, and that's fine, it really is (at least is should be). I think its both derived from the same emotion. Hopelessness and fear can drive you into a corner if you let it. And, to me, that corner either ends up being faith or the antithesis of that. For example I remember after my brother passing I was very scared not only about where he was but about what would happen if I died tomorrow. That was alot for a kid but eventually I ended up on both sides of the issue at differing times. I honestly feel like the only people who feel like they KNOW for SURE are those people to afraid of what happens to let themselves not know. Much like I was as a child. Im not sure if im making sense. 2 minutes ago, thinwhiteduke said: Sigh....Since when is defining belief, trolling? Nevermind Yes. Please. Nevermind. Get out. lol Edited March 28, 2018 by Llevron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The 12th Commandment Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 12 minutes ago, Renegade7 said: @Bang alluded to it in that none of us are truly sure until we know for certain. Sometimes I wonder how people can be so sure about something so uncomfortable as ceasing to exist, but I have to respect that way of thinking if I want them to respect mine. I believe we both said that if we're wrong, so be it, we both believe what we're doing is the right thing, and that's fine, it really is (at least is should be). Absolutely it is the right thing. Basically I think I'm doing the same, I might lean atheist but I could never be honest with myself if I refused to acknowledge the possibility. If there is a god, my suspicions would be that it was same alien life form and not the guy described in the bible or Torah, etc. Might share a lot of characteristics but just a natural occurring life form that we can't conceive of. Fun to consider. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thinwhiteduke Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 12 minutes ago, LadySkinsFan said: Ignore is your friend. Because ignoring what you dont/can't understand is safer than confronting it and learning something new. Christian sheep=government sheep, they are all the same. Religion, the opiate of the masses. I expect you take what I just said with both an element of truth and humor. If anything, you can't Say I'm not consistent lol. I'm Apparently a very good writer because I accomplish getting a reaction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted March 28, 2018 Author Share Posted March 28, 2018 5 minutes ago, Llevron said: I honestly feel like the only people who feel like they KNOW for SURE are those people to afraid of what happens to let themselves not know. Much like I was as a child. Took me a couple times looking at it, but I think I got what you're saying. Yes, I agree, I do believe the individuals that are most pressed about this issue are more likely to do the most research on it (at least at some point before going into "I don't care anymore" category). It's threads like these that really challenge my faith (Do I really believe in God or am I afraid of the idea that there is none). There's a lot that goes into what I believe besides my own mortality, and I'm going to keep reading to help make sure I understand what I'm really dealing with (I find more comfort in asking these questions now then putting them off for later). It just reaffirms that I need to make life count while I got it regardless, and cross that bridge when I get there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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