2018 ES GMs Mock Draft is complete!

[Chump Bailey]

12 hours ago, PokerPacker said:

You do know there's a 53 player roster limit?

 

9 hours ago, Epochalypse said:

Why would you not trade up to improve your picks?

 

You have to think your odds of hitting on so many day 3 picks aren't good and it's not like the Raiders have that many holes.

 

What can I say I'm a draft pick hoarder I suppose. We'll see how many I hit on and the Raiders have more holes than you think. 

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

20 hours ago, Chump Bailey said:

 

 

 ..... and the Raiders have more holes than you think. 

 

 

Grudens ruthlessly gutting that group FA. He wants to win from the get-go. 

 

Hail. 

[Chump Bailey]

3 hours ago, Gibbs Hog Heaven said:

 

Grudens ruthlessly gutting that group FA. He wants to win from the get-go. 

 

Hail. 

 

He sure is. I don't think Gruden is going to succeed. I like the guy, but am not optimistic he can turn things around. 

[RemoveSnyder]

Now that all of the GMs have abandoned the thread except for two or three crazy diehards, I'm guaranteed that my post will be completely missed.

Nonetheless, here are my suggested rule amendments to take affect for the 2019 mock draft. 

 

In all honesty, these are just small tweaks to the already established framework for the draft. But speaking bluntly, these are amendments I would need to have in place for myself, in order to justify participation in the 2019 mock draft, if I'm being truthful. 

 

I'm assuming the majority of the GMs wish to continue with the "around the clock" 24 hour drafting that is currently in place? If so, then the amendments below apply to that framework. I did bring up fixed timeslotting early on during this year's mock draft, but it received negative responses. If at any point someone would be interested in a brief overview of what a fixed time slot draft would look like, I can write an outline in a separate post.

 

But I'm sure most of the GMs here are smart enough to do the math themselves with regards to that:

(number of picks -- 256, number of days -- X, picks per day -- Y, amount of time "on the clock," etc). 

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Amendment 1: The "on the clock" time for each selection should be 8 hours total for every pick, for all 7 rounds.

 

From pick #1 to pick #256, no one pick is any bit the more important than another, no one pick any less important than another.

 

For as nice of a novelty idea it is in having progressively reduced time from the 1st round to day-2 and from there to day-3, ultimately, unless we are actually trying to recreate the NFL Draft in exact detail, in exact application, you know, the same exact amount of time on the clock as it is in real life (which would be ridiculous), then it's simply just a novelty. 

 

As it stands now we go 12 hours in round 1, then down to 10 hours, then finally down to 8 hours. I argue that 8 hours is sufficient time for trades, selection and write-up, for the entirety of the draft. 

 

Why 8 hours? Because of skips. 

 

We build into our model, into the framework, a limit of liability. We are simply limiting our liability by putting the on the clock time limit to 8 hours total for each pick.

 

As evidenced by this last draft, virtually every GM who made a selection "on time," did so well within 8 hours. And that was regardless of whether it was the 1st round which had 12 hour limits, or the 2nd round with 10 hour limits, or even on day-3 with the 8 hour limits.

 

I believe anyone here who goes back and independently looks at each selection, calculates the amount of time each GM took on the clock  in order to analyze it, will see some fundamentally true things. One, that the GMs who got skipped would have gotten skipped regardless of whether the "on the clock" time was 8 hours, or 10 hours, or 12 hours. Those who got skipped were going to get skipped. And there was nothing anyone could have done to prevent it ... other than limit our liability. 

 

The other truth that can be seen is that 8 hours is substantially enough time for the vast majority of GMs throughout the draft. Trades still happened during the "off the clock" hours, and when GMs came "on the clock," they were able to execute their drafting well within 8 hours time.

 

We essentially are limiting our combined exposure to the skips. Because, afterall, as someone else wrote here in the thread, it's not just the individual time used by the current GM on the clock, in that moment, but it is in-fact all of ours combined time that is being used. 

 

Skips happen. They will always happen. This is not some judgement against the moral fiber of those who get skipped. 

 

Skips are just like injuries in the NFL, we know they are going to happen. They always happen each year. We just don't know to whom, or when they will happen, or in what way they will happen. But we know they will happen. 

 

So, we build into our system a way of limiting our liability.

 

 

*I say that IF we continue with the 24 hour round the clock drafting, then it should be 8 hours on the clock. IF people want less time "on the clock" than 8 hours, then we need to switch to a fixed time slotting format, which would inherently decrease the on the clock hours.*

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Amendment 2: All 32 GMs vote for the appointment of the commissioner.

 

We elect the commish from those who wish to be the commissioner. If only one person volunteers to be the commish, we don't vote. Pretty easy process if only one volunteers. If two or more individuals desire to be commish, we vote. 

 

The commissioner should, in the simplest explanation, just be the proxy for all 32 GMs, and simply be the one who records the transactions and selections.

 

One of the first retorts I thought of against the voting aspect was, "how can one possibly expect all 32 GMs to show up at the same time and do something collectively?" 

 

The way I envision it is that the election process occurs in the weeks prior to the start of the draft, when the thread first opens up. It would be one of the first duties performed by the GMs, with a few days allotted for each GM to register a vote. But of course if a GM is absent, or doesn't vote, think of it as an early vetting process to see which GMs are responsive and engaged.

 

If a GM doesn't vote, doesn't send in a PM for their selection, you've just identified a GM who may be prone to being skipped, less involved, a GM who needs prodding and maintenance. An early detection screening. 

 

As it stands now, whoever starts the thread is basically self-appointing themselves as commissioner. And I kind of think that the commissioner should be the choice of all the participants. I want to know each GM's choice for commissioner. As it also stands now, the commissioner has likewise been 1 of the 32 GMs. At times that's caused some gear grinding here and there, even for the commish him/her-self. 

 

I understand that in any given year when the thread first opens up there is a call to attention to see which GMs from the previous year are able to participate, that there may be the need to recruit new GMs, etc. I appreciate the conundrum that presents.

 

I understand that someone has to initiate things, get the roll call going. But I don't think that necessarily means that that person continues on thereafter, you know, shaping and molding all things and 86'ing things left and right. 

 

Essentially, we elect the commissioner. 

As long as the commissioner has a post on the front page of the thread, then they can edit it thereafter with the rules and the big selection board, etc.

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2B (For consideration): Consider that the Commissioner is not 1 of the 32 GMs.

 

(A subsection idea to be attached to Amendment #2, or discarded).

 

The idea of having the commissioner be an independent third party is something I think should be up for review. 

 

I don't know who the hell would sign up for that, offhand, but perhaps there could be someone who would be interested enough in the mock draft to oversee it and do the duties of the commissioner, like notifying people of who are on the clock, but would likewise also be interested in being "free," for the most part, and not have to take on the extra tedious tasks of scouting, watching film, checking the pace of the draft, having themselves at the ready at all times of day or night in order to make a selection, etc. 

 

Essentially, the commissioner would not be a GM, would not be drafting. 

 

This idea was borne out of the fact that very few GMs took advantage of sending in shortlists to the commissioner. So, if anyone has any ideas on how to improve the percentage of GMs handing in shortlists for when they may be offline or logged out of ES for extended periods, I'm all ears. 

 

I can't unravel why it's so hard for the majority of GMs to adopt a shortlist regiment. I can only speak for myself. I made a commitment to the draft and therefore wanted to be the one who made the selection. I made the necessary sacrifices in real life in order to make that time commitment. It meant that I was always on ES, every day, and I was checking in first thing when I woke up and last thing before going to bed. Therefore, I never needed to send in a shortlist. 

 

Maybe that's what every GM likewise prefers. Unfortunately, not everyone else was as precise in their plannings. 

 

So, I can only offer the suggestion that IF the commish were not a GM, not someone who would be selecting (possibly) the same players as the hesitant GM unwilling to send in a shortlst to a competitor GM, then maybe we could see more shortlists handed in to a third party commissioner. 

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2C (For consideration): Consider that we appoint a deputy commissioner as well.

 

This idea rises from my own observations of the commissioner each year having moments of frustration and tiredness associated with their tasks, all the time commitment and extraneous chores that they undertake in being the commissioner.

 

So, essentially, we have a commissioner who updates the "OP" and takes the point position for notifying whichever GM is on the clock and whichever GM is on deck, as has always been the structure, but (conceivably) we have a deputy commissioner who would take over in the off hours in relief for the primary commissioner and handle the duties of notification, be around to post an update here or there, etc.

 

As it stands now, a few GMs sort-of self police things and notify who is next up, but many GMs fail to do so. Not everyone "pitches in" after they select. 

 

Of course the deputy commissioner would not be able to update the OP (the running board of selections), but they could compile all the picks that had been made during the off hours that the primary commish had missed, maybe make an update post for all to see in the thread, and perhaps also send those selections as a PM to the commish to help him/her out when they get back online, rather than leaving the commish to hunt those selections down, first thing. Just an example.

 

Likewise, if a deputy commish were activated, conceivably the primary commissioner would have an additional safety net for which to send any shortlists that were originally sent to the primary commissioner. That way the draft could roll along as the primary commissioner goes and gets some sleep.  

 

Essentially, the deputy commish would just have those duties spelled out, officially, and be appointed and expected to show up, rather than how it stands now, where myself and a few others, as I've noticed, jump in when things seem to be going sideways.

 

Of course, the commissioner and the deputy would need to come from the same pool of current posters here who show-up everyday during our mock draft. And from what I've noticed, that consists of perhaps, around, 10 or so posters. You know, the posters who are "9-to-5" ES'ers. 

 

This "2C," is just a subsection idea to be added to Amendment #2. It's not a necessary condition to be adopted for the primary Amendment #2. If this is something that folks don't want, it does not invalidate the suggestion of Amendment #2. 

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Amendment 3: Change the "jump in" policy for skipped GMs. They should wait for the current GM to select. 

 

Just like this year, when we subtly amended the "on the clock" policy for when someone trades up, remember, they inherit the remaining amount of time on the clock, there is no reset of the clock. We should also avoid situations where a skipped GM can just show up and screw the current on the clock GM who had to wait all along.  

 

Currently when a GM is skipped, the rules state that the skipped GM can jump back in at any time. I think that is actually unfair. 

 

So, I propose, when a GM is skipped, they can only "jump in" AFTER the current "on the clock" GM has made their selection. No more "running to the podium" situations. I was faced with this situation this year and it pissed me off. 

 

It's not fair to the current GM, on the clock, who not only had to wait as another GM got skipped, no-showed, but it's doubly not fair when the current GM was online and ready to go all throughout the skipped GM's time limit. Additionally, it's also not fair that once the current GM comes on the clock that they have to feel rushed, like they need to beat out the skipped GM in order to make a selection, lest they lose a player they would want.

 

 

Again, I was put in this situation this year, but I feel that any GM who faced that situation should have the right to protest. 

It's not a common occurrence where a skipped GM shows up as the on the clock GM is fixing to make their selection, but (lucky me) I got to experience it this year. 

 

We're negatively impacting the current on the clock GM who waited their turn and rightfully got put on the clock, only for a skipped GM to slide back infront of them and slip one under the door. Once again, it's hard for GMs to realize these things until they themselves are the recipient of these imbalanced rules. 

 

 

It'll work like this: 

The GM who was skipped takes however much time they take, the draft rolls on.

 

Eventually the skipped GM shows up and says that they are ready. We all inform him/her: "great that you're back, hang tight, check the thread periodically, stay online, have your selection ready for when the current on the clock GM makes their pick."

 

Essentially the skipped GM has to then wait themselves. Wait, just like the people behind him/her had to wait. They don't get to show up and slip a selection in that may negatively impact the GM who is rightfully on the clock in that moment.

 

Now, I could sharpen this amendment and specify that this should only apply if the current on the clock GM was actually logged in and active in thread, as I was. But ultimately I think that might undermine the thrust of the amendment. The only fair thing I can see is to allow the on the clock GM the respect they deserve in having all their time to make a selection without worry that the skipped GM is about to pounce and take their preferred player. 

 

 

I'll be damned if I have to wait 8 hours for a GM to be skipped then watch as they arrive within the first 10 minutes of my "on the clock" time only to worry that they may take the player I have as my #1 choice. It's just not fair.

 

The skipped GM, once arrived, can give the proper respect of time to the current GM. The skipped GM can wait, stay active, and then make their selection right after the current on the clock GM goes. 

 

No GM should have to feel rushed. Right?

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Amendment 4: The easter day surprise. All suspensions of time needs to be laid out before the Draft commences. 

 

Either it's written out beforehand and we all agree to it when we sign up, or it's simply not sprung upon people. As it were, the easter day suspension of time limits could have beed delineated much better, at least for clarity sake. 

 

If the commissioner acts unilaterally and enforces the easter day mandate, or any such "special day" mandate, where the suspension of time limits and therefore the suspension of the draft itself occurs, then we need clarity. I say, ultimately, that any such special day needs to be built in before we start the draft, written down on the front page, each GM needs to be told about it before we start and it needs to be agreed upon by everyone.

 

But if it happens in media res, then the explanation needs to be much more clearly stated. Specifically, there should have been a clear statement that the draft was suspened for the ENTIRETY of the day and that NO SELECTIONS would be made ... until, such-and-such time the next Monday morning. 

 

What should have happened this year, is that all GMs should have been notified that there would be a day long suspension of selecting. As it turned out, Reaper was given something like 32 hours on the clock before making a selection under the notion of "no time limits." But that's actually a sidenote to the easter day surprise.

 

The real victim in that application was Cypress the GM who was selecting directly behind Reaper. The first notification of the easter day surprise was that there were "no time limits." Unfortunately that wording left open the possibility that some selections would occur that easter sunday. 

 

As it turned out, because it was never stated outright that the draft was suspended completely, it left the outside possibility that a selection COULD, WOULD, POSSIBLY, be made THAT day. But it never was. And Cypress, along with myself and many other GMs, had to continually log in, check the status of things, wonder what Reaper's plan were, some inquired multiple times what "no time limits" meant, others seemingly "looked around" unsure, but all ultimately had to wait out an entire day in limbo.

 

Completely unfair to leave a GM like that, Cypress, who was on deck waiting for 32 hours time. That was unacceptable. 

It would have been unacceptable to anyone. 

 

If we had all agreed to it before the draft ... different story. 

 

If the 1st notification of no-time-limits was a CC to all that said it was a complete and total suspension for the entire day, that no selections were to be made at all, then people would not have hung in limbo checking back in throughout the day wondering if a selection would occur at hour-15, or hour-18, or hour-20, hour-22, etc.

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General 1: Perhaps a better vetting process for the GMs. 

 

The commitment we all make is for a month long procedure. It's a month long commitment to log in each and every day. If the GMs are unwilling or unable to make that commitment from the beginning, then they shouldn't sign up. Myself included.

 

Perhaps we need a better vetting process in the beginning. 

 

The time commitment needs to be spelled out in the OP. It needs to be reiterated each page for the first couple pages. And anytime a GM signs up, even if it's a recurring GM, we all probably should have to read a spelled out paragraph of what the time commitment means and then sign it. 

 

 

Kind of like the "honor code." You sign that thing each new school year. So, in our mock draft, we each sign the time commitment code. 

 

It should read like, and hit all the key points, such as: "It's a month long commitment, log in each day (even if you're not on the clock), log in multiple times per day, the time you take on the clock is not just your time but each and every other GM's time as well, each round and each pick is important to every GM, commit to the whole thing, etc ..."

 

The fun aspect of drafting is knowing that others are trying their best, that good players are being selected, therefore it demands my best effort and heightens my attention to draft well, as well. 

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General 2: Spelling things out in the "OP," particularly about Trades, not just the rules. 

 

Maybe would should spell out how to do trades. And then reiterate them continually.

We tried this with the shortlist aspect. I don't know if it actually worked.

 

As for trades, similarly with regard to the time commitment "honor code," perhaps we should spell out how to do trades, for which people then agree upon before the draft starts, just like with everything else rule related.  

 

In my observation most everyone is cognizant of getting trades done before they get on the clock. The majority of GMs and virtually all of the occurrences of trades happen smoothly, and efficiently, and don't take up a whole lot of time. 

 

However, in the 1st round of this year's draft we had a GM take the entire 12 hours on the clock, supposedly in trying to figure out a trade. But they never did actually execute a trade. They showed up several hours after they had been put on the clock and declared they would be making a selection shortly, after unsuccessfully attempting to make a trade. But in-fact they actually disappeared after that, presumably going to bed and they ended up sending in a "shortlist" selection to the commissioner who had likewise gone to bed. Ultimately, all 12 hours were exhausted, the commissioner made the selection the following morning, and all the other GMs had to wait as one GM stubbornly squatted on the clock. 

 

The very second that the GM sent in a shortlist for a selection which they were currently on the clock for, should have been the moment that the selection was made. That should have been the pick. It's an oxymoron to have shortlist when you're currently on the clock. Either you make the selection or you don't.

 

Unfortunately, the people who suffered were the people who were anxiously waiting to get the Top 5 finished. Amazingly this occurrence happened in the Top 5. That whole spectacle was just altogether unacceptable. 

 

 

I make a suggestion here for a spelled out explanation of how trades should happen and we basically all sign it. 

 

Trades happen during your "off the clock" hours, not during your on the clock hours. Almost every GM knows this.

Of course, every GM should have the right to finalize a trade while on the clock, and every GM should be allowed to initiate a trade when they come on the clock, so long as they intend to finish the trade within a respectable amount of time. 

 

And contrary to popular belief, citing the "negotiator's handbook of strategic upperhand tactics," even if you are attempting to trade down, you still have to be the GM to initiate contact. You have to be the one to search out a partner, especially if you're not getting any bites. You, yourself, have to look at the draft order and pick the selection number (and GM) that you want to move down to. Directly contact GMs in order to get things moving. You cannot expect people to come running and offering you a boatload when you send out a generic "blast" post, where you offer up your pick, on some random page of the thread.

 

Some times that works, some times it doesn't. 

You got to be proactive.

 

Even if you're trading down and don't want to look desperate, you've got to be proactive.

 

But what isn't acceptable is what happened at pick #5, to eat away the entirety of the time limit once they had determined which player to select by sending in a "shortlist," after no trade had made any traction, after several hours. 

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That's all for now. 

 

[goskins10]

2 hours ago, Monk4thaHALL said:

Now that all of the GMs have abandoned the thread except for two or three crazy diehards, I'm guaranteed that my post will be completely missed.

Nonetheless, here are my suggested rule amendments to take affect for the 2019 mock draft. 

 

In all honesty, these are just small tweaks to the already established framework for the draft. But speaking bluntly, these are amendments I would need to have in place for myself, in order to justify participation in the 2019 mock draft, if I'm being truthful. 

 

I'm assuming the majority of the GMs wish to continue with the "around the clock" 24 hour drafting that is currently in place? If so, then the amendments below apply to that framework. I did bring up fixed timeslotting early on during this year's mock draft, but it received negative responses. If at any point someone would be interested in a brief overview of what a fixed time slot draft would look like, I can write an outline in a separate post.

 

But I'm sure most of the GMs here are smart enough to do the math themselves with regards to that:

(number of picks -- 256, number of days -- X, picks per day -- Y, amount of time "on the clock," etc). 

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Edited for space

 

But what isn't acceptable is what happened at pick #5, to eat away the entirety of the time limit once they had determined which player to select by sending in a "shortlist," after no trade had made any traction, after several hours. 

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That's all for now. 

 

 

First, thanks for taking the time to write this up. You make some good points. Following are my thoughts in response. 

 

Specific time allotments - I realize you feel many dismissed this out of hand, and maybe they did. But I can promise you I read it and gave it very careful consideration. I am just not for it. For me I like the dynamic nature of the current system - barring a few people. When the draft gets on a roll it's very exciting to me. It just shows how truly prepared most of the GMs are and for me that's part of what makes this fun. Plus if we can solve the skips problem, we can get done early. 

 

Time limits - I agree 100% that 8 hrs is more than enough time no matter the round. You are either paying attention and ready or you are not. I would add to that if you are skipped once your time is cut in half. Get skipped a second time you are replaced. No exceptions. For the most part the people being skipped are the same each rd. This weeds them out. If it was truly a life situation - it's either fixed and you can carry on or you need to bow out. Not being insensitive to life happening. It's clearly more important. But my observation had been that the people skipped once because of life are typically making their picks in the first hour or so most of the time. A variation could be no penalty for the first time but automatic replacement after two. It's very frustrating waiting for the same 2 or 3 people each rd outside the occasional life situation. We need to get them weeded out faster. 

 

When a Skipped person can pick - I agree anyone skipped should wait until the pick on the clock is made. I would go a step further in requiring them to send a short list of 2 to the commissioner who makes the pick for them immediately. That way the next person knows exactly whats going on and can make their pick accordingly. 

 

Trades - I agree allowing someone to wait 8 hrs for a trade is not necessary. But not all trades can be made before the pick is due. My thought would be that trades needs to happen within the first hour of your allotted time. 

 

Commissioner - I am not sure it's fair to say whoever starts the thread has been the commissioner. Unless I am mistaken it's been @Epochalypse 3 of 4 yrs with @Gibbs Hog Heaven doing it last year because Epoch could not do it. This has been their baby from the start. Quite honestly I believe both did an amazing job and am not sure who would want to take that responsibility on. 

 

Having said that, if there are others who want to throw their hat in the ring OK. But it's a bit of a horse before the cart thing. We need a commissioner to get to the 32 players. Someone has to own that. 

 

Deputy Commissioner - I believe this is a great idea and have for a few years. As you said, there are a few of us that pitch in and send notices after their picks and after others picks. But it might be good to have someone assigned. It would also take some of the pressure off the main commissioner to be online all the time. That is the position I believe could be voted on. Once we get 32 and the Redskins GM has been selected, anyone who is interested in being deputy commissioner could throw their hat in the ring. Ideally it would be someone in a different time zone but doesn't have to be. Some people like myself are up at all hours - looking at you GHH!!! 

3rd Party Commissioner - If you find that person, let me know. I will want to check their sanity - lol. 

 

Easter -  I agree this needs to be agreed before the draft starts. Exact times and parameters. While it's not am important holiday to me, I know to some it's an important holiday with family time a major part of that (sure you don;t want an excuse to step out for a few minutes? Ok, I digress..) So if we want to suspend picks that day that's totally fine. But it needs to be well refined ahead of time so everyone knows exactly what's going on. 

 

Better vetting of GMs - I agree but just not sure how we do that. When everyone signs up they are very eager and seem excited. But there are always a few who lose interest after the first rd or two. I think better management of the time allotted as mentioned above will help us weed out the offenders more quickly so the GMs who are diligent are not made to suffer repeated long waits when they are totally prepared. 

 

Better use of short lists - Not really sure how to encourage this but if we could, it would help. The problem is that the people holding things up are the same ones not sending in short lists. The people sending in short lists are the ones on top of things. But would be open to thoughts. 

 

Additional thought - Notifications: In previous years specific PMs were sent as GMs were on the clock and on deck. We tried to use the @ function this year as the notification. However, it did not work as well as I believe it should have. I would suggest we do both moving forward. Send a PM and use the @ function with their screen name in case their inbox is full. Although, it could be a requirement that you clean out your inbox to the point you can receive messages. 

 

Again, thanks for the initial write up. Hopefully we can find some resolution to a few of the issues as overall this is always a blast for me so I hope it continues. 

 

 

 

 

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

@Monk4thaHALL

 

Heck, a lot to work through there mate. I'll take a look the next day or two when I've more time. And round up some miscellanious stats on this draft as a whole and the 'Boys recap. Just too snowed under whilst trying to grab extra tickets for tomorrow right now. 

 

Heads kettled. 

 

Hail. 

 

[Epochalypse]

I appreciate the thought behind your post @Monk4thaHALL.  I offer this.

 

I have no problem stepping aside and allowing someone else to be the commissioner. With the amount of changes you recommend, I'd recommend you fill that role next year. What that does is give you complete control of what rules are in place and first hand experience as to what that role entails.

 

I'd make the humble request that pending my availability and capacity next year I be allowed to participate, preferably as the Browns GM, but with you as the commissioner I'd review and acquiesce to your design should I sign up.

 

I could offer counterpoints to some of your suggestions but I accept that alternatives may work to the improvement of the event; in fact a number of GHH's changes I brought over having seen them work well when he graciously took over.  Some I did not.  So I will reserve those comments should you assume the mantle and observe how it goes.

[PokerPacker]

I, for one, do not want a complete overhaul.  I only have a couple small ideas.  The big one would be instead of giving teams 8-hour draft slots, give shorter slot but allow every GM to pick a time-slot in which their clock doesn't run.  The original reason for the 8-hour slot was for the international GMs to be able to sleep rather than be beholden to the Eastern timezone.  If instead we let each team pick, say, a 4 hour slot where the clock doesn't run and another 4 hours on top of that to pick, that will give 8 hours to pick during whichever part of the day they deem to need the extra time, and only 4 hours otherwise.  Minimizes the likelihood of hitting those 8-hour windows while still allowing people everywhere to set aside a block of time for sleeping or working.

[RemoveSnyder]

12 minutes ago, PokerPacker said:

The big one would be instead of giving teams 8-hour draft slots, give shorter slot but allow every GM to pick a time-slot in which their clock doesn't run. 

 

If instead we let each team pick, say, a 4 hour slot where the clock doesn't run and another 4 hours on top of that to pick, that will give 8 hours to pick during whichever part of the day they deem to need the extra time, and only 4 hours otherwise. 

 

I'm having trouble visualizing what you're writing about here.

 

If you can explain how a GM can pick their time slot while still keeping the draft order the way it's supposed to go, from pick #1, to #2, to #3 and on so, in sequential order, then maybe I can understand it. 

 

[RemoveSnyder]

1 hour ago, Epochalypse said:

 

I'd recommend you fill that role next year.

 

Eh, I don't know if I want to be commissioner. It's much easier just complaining and doing nothing about it. 

 

Besides, as I wrote above, I'm kind of curious to see what the other 31 GMs feel about the idea of having the commissioner not be a GM. 

If it's the wish of the people, then we'd be looking for an independent 3rd-party to run the draft, not dictate the rules. Just enact the wishes of the majority. 

 

So, if I were up for consideration as commissioner, then I think I wouldn't want to be a GM too. Just separate and simplify things. I much prefer being a GM and watching film. 

 

Further, I brought up the idea that the GMs themselves appoint the commissioner by vote.

So, doubly, unless the majority of GMs wanted me as commissioner, as opposed to you or someone else, like Wildbunny, then I guess I'd just assume not be commissioner. 

 

But if I were voted to be the commish, then I'd feel beholden to take the position. Will of the people.

 

But, the whole notion of being only a commissioner and not a GM just means I'd be more detached and sober, as would anyone. I concede that a random poster on ES may have no inclination or desire to just be the commissioner if they were not also to participate as a GM and do the drafting as well. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[PokerPacker]

26 minutes ago, Monk4thaHALL said:

 

I'm having trouble visualizing what you're writing about here.

 

If you can explain how a GM can pick their time slot while still keeping the draft order the way it's supposed to go, from pick #1, to #2, to #3 and on so, in sequential order, then maybe I can understand it. 

 

They don't pick their time slot, they just pick a slot in the day when their clock won't run.

Hypothetical: Some GM might choose to have their "clock doesn't run" slot be from midnight to 4am local time.  Their pick happens to come up at noon and so they have until 4pm their pick with the 4-hour-clock.  Then next round, their pick happens to come up at 1am.  They have until 8am to make their pick as their clock does not start running until 4am.

[RemoveSnyder]

4 minutes ago, PokerPacker said:

They don't pick their time slot, they just pick a slot in the day when their clock won't run.

Hypothetical: Some GM might choose to have their "clock doesn't run" slot be from midnight to 4am local time.  Their pick happens to come up at noon and so they have 4 hours to make their pick.  Then next round, their pick happens to come up at 1am.  They have until 8am to make their pick as their clock does not start running until 4am.

 

Nope. Still don't get it. 

I read it three times and: 

 

I apologize. 

[skinfan2k]

Kinda agree but because this is a redskins board, we need to cater this to people in the eastern time zone. I got skipped on of the picks because when i checked we were 15 picks away, i thought there was 0 chance that the time would come up and i would make a selection the next day.

 

I recommend.  Get away from the 24 hour clock and start 4 hour clocks but everyone knows their schedule up front regardless of trades.  

 

Team A 0500-0900

Team B 900-1300

Team C 1300-1700

Team D 1700-2100

 

Everyone would know their slots ahead of time.  Also it is far easier to make a selection in rounds 1-4 compared to the other rounds.  Lastly, recommend the OP be in a shared google sheet that contains all prospects vs those who have been drafted

[RemoveSnyder]

8 minutes ago, skinfan2k said:

I recommend.  Get away from the 24 hour clock and start 4 hour clocks but everyone knows their schedule up front regardless of trades.  

 

Team A 0500-0900

Team B 900-1300

Team C 1300-1700

Team D 1700-2100

 

So, this year our mock draft started on March 26th. It was a monday. 

The actual real life draft starts on April 26th, this upcoming thursday. 

 

So that is 32 days. 

There are a total of 256 picks in the 2018 draft. We endeavored to finish the mock draft before the start of the real draft. We succeeded. 

 

But, as you know, if you take 256 and divide by 32, you find out the bare minimum number of picks we would have to average per day in order to meet that deadline. It was 8 selections per day average. 

 

In whichever model you propose, you need to be able to ensure at least 8 picks a day. So, the model is either everyone is fixed or everything is free flowing. In the free flowing model picks happen wham, bam, one after another. As soon as one is made, the next in line can go. In the fixed, the GM shows up at their predetermined time ... or they don't. 

 

 

if you're suggesting that each GM is given 4 hours on the clock, is the next in-line GM supposed to go immediately after the last GM makes their selection, or do they wait for the next "time zone?"

 

4 picks a day won't get it done. But maybe I'm not understanding your model. 

[PokerPacker]

27 minutes ago, Monk4thaHALL said:

 

Nope. Still don't get it. 

I read it three times and:

 

I apologize. 

 

[skinfan2k]

25 minutes ago, Monk4thaHALL said:

 

So, this year our mock draft started on March 26th. It was a monday. 

The actual real life draft starts on April 26th, this upcoming thursday. 

 

So that is 32 days. 

There are a total of 256 picks in the 2018 draft. We endeavored to finish the mock draft before the start of the real draft. We succeeded. 

 

But, as you know, if you take 256 and divide by 32, you find out the bare minimum number of picks we would have to average per day in order to meet that deadline. It was 8 selections per day average. 

 

In whichever model you propose, you need to be able to ensure at least 8 picks a day. So, the model is either everyone is fixed or everything is free flowing. In the free flowing model picks happen wham, bam, one after another. As soon as one is made, the next in line can go. In the fixed, the GM shows up at their predetermined time ... or they don't. 

 

 

if you're suggesting that each GM is given 4 hours on the clock, is the next in-line GM supposed to go immediately after the last GM makes their selection, or do they wait for the next "time zone?"

 

4 picks a day won't get it done. But maybe I'm not understanding your model. 

 

Ok maybe then have each team have a 2 hr timelimit between 6am-12pm.  But everyone would know their time.  Every time would be obeyed.  

[PokerPacker]

1 minute ago, skinfan2k said:

 

Ok maybe then have each team have a 2 hr timelimit between 6am-12pm.  But everyone would know their time.  Every time would be obeyed.  

And people who can't participate during work are out.  I do not like the non-malleable time-slot.  I much prefer being able to rapid-fire as people are available.

[RemoveSnyder]

Just now, skinfan2k said:

Ok maybe then have each team have a 2 hr timelimit between 6am-12pm.  But everyone would know their time.  Every time would be obeyed.  

 

That's simply my point. As I see it, there are two kinds of models, either fixed time slots or free flowing model. 

 

It would seem that the majority of GMs prefer the 24 hour, round the clock, free flowing model. And I've stated my position time again, I'm interested in majority rules. 

[skinfan2k]

5 minutes ago, Monk4thaHALL said:

 

That's simply my point. As I see it, there are two kinds of models, either fixed time slots or free flowing model. 

 

It would seem that the majority of GMs prefer the 24 hour, round the clock, free flowing model. And I've stated my position time again, I'm interested in majority rules. 

 

I think the 24 hour clock is fine too but maybe we cap it at 8 picks a day to avoid my situation of being skipped since i was 15 picks away from selecting

[RemoveSnyder]

32 minutes ago, PokerPacker said:

 

 

I mean, I understand how to subtract 4 hours, or add 4 hours, here or there. But, when reading your application, it seemed like the only way to interpret your examples was to plug it into a "fixed" time slot model. 

 

As it stands now, with the free flowing model, no one knows beforehand just exactly when they are going to come on the clock. It's at best guess work.

You can estimate the longest amount of time you'd have to wait based upon the maximum amount of time allowed on the clock multiplied by the number of picks you are away from getting on the clock, but, as you noted yourself, you can wait many hours, or you could be on the clock in a heartbeat. 

 

It all just depends. 

 

So, I was just trying to apply your model to what we have in place right now. As it is right now, the way we select is in sequential order.  Pick #44 cannot come before pick #43. But if the two GMs who own #43 and #44 are in completely disparate time zones, and both each have selected different "no time clock" zones (or whatever you call that thingy of yours) then I'm just trying to see the actual real world application of your model. 

 

If you're interested in doing a little research project, could you model out the first 10 picks of our draft that we just did and show me how each of the 1st ten picks would look in your model? 

 

I mean, it's a lot of work. But start with the date and time that each pick came on the clock in our model and then show how in your model things werr improved, and how a GM on the west coast was able to select at a more favorable time for them, while the next GM (who was in Liverpool) got a more favorable time slot, and then how another GM (one from New Zealand -- Cypress) was also benefitted with the 4 hour no time clock method and was able to get all 10 picks done in a faster and better way than our current model.

 

I mean, that's how my brain is working with the model you brought up. My first concern is that it'll work for some people and then there will be an odd situation where something goes snafu. But, like I said (shoe to head) and as you said (sassy latin) I'm not always the quickest to learn. 

 

 

[PokerPacker]

3 minutes ago, Monk4thaHALL said:

I mean, I understand how to subtract 4 hours, or add 4 hours, here or there. But, when reading your application, it seemed like the only way to interpret your examples was to plug it into a "fixed" time slot model.

It's very much like our current model.  Right now we just have 8 hours to make a pick.  You make your pick and it's over, next team.  My model halves that time, but introduces a 4 hour period each day where your clock does not tick (we'll call that the dead-clock-slot).  Each GM can pick when that 4 hour period takes place for them.  Example with a 3-team draft:

GM A has a dead-clock-slot from midnight to 4am

GM B has also elected to have their dead-clock-slot from midnight to 4am

GM C has elected to have their dead-clock-slot from 6pm to 10pm

Draft start at 4:00 pm.  GM A is on the clock and has until 8pm to make his pick.

 

GM A, takes his time and makes his selection at 5pm.  GM B is now on the clock and has until 9pm to pick

GM B held out waiting for a trade partner, but does find anyone willing, and selects just at 9pm.  GM C is now up.  But we are in GM C's dead-clock-zone, so their timer does not start until that ends at 10pm, so GM C has until 2am to make his selection.

GM C wakes up from his British bed around midnight and makes his pick.  GM A is now up, but we are in their dead-clock-slot, so GM A has until 8am to make his selection.

GM A makes his selection at 8am; just beat the buzzer.  GM B is on the clock and has until Noon to make his selection.
GM B picks immediately after GM A at 8am.  GM C is now on the clock and has until Noon to make his selection.

GM C, being British, takes 5 hours to write up his pick, so he gets skipped at Noon when GM A swoops in and picks ahead of him.  Everyone makes fun of GHH GM C.

 

Does that help any?

[RemoveSnyder]

Have you been apart of a draft that runs on the 4 hour on the clock with 4 hours off the clock model? 

And has it worked?

 

Has there ever been occurrences where there are multiple skips or long periods of dead time? 

@PokerPacker

[PokerPacker]

Just now, Monk4thaHALL said:

Have you been apart of a draft that runs on the 4 hour on the clock with 4 hours off the clock model? 

And has it worked?

 

Has there ever been occurrences where there are multiple skips or long periods of dead time? 

@PokerPacker

Nope.  Just spit-balling ideas to move things along more.  The original intention of the 8-hour clock was so no matter where in the world you were, you'd have time to sleep before picking.  It's simple and it gets the job done, but is also a rather blunt tool that leaves room for people being absent when they really shouldn't.

And the split between dead-clock-time and on-the-clock time is just a jumping-off point to consider.  I'd be open to allocating those times differently to strike the right balance in fairness and efficiency.

[RemoveSnyder]

2 hours ago, PokerPacker said:

Nope.  Just spit-balling ideas to move things along more.  The original intention of the 8-hour clock was so no matter where in the world you were, you'd have time to sleep before picking.  It's simple and it gets the job done, but is also a rather blunt tool that leaves room for people being absent when they really shouldn't.

And the split between dead-clock-time and on-the-clock time is just a jumping-off point to consider.  I'd be open to allocating those times differently to strike the right balance in fairness and efficiency.

 

Yeah, I know about the basis behind 8 hours on the clock. It's all very symmetrical and simple when plugged into a 24 hour round the clock model. 

That's partly why I've argued that if one wants to decrease the amount of time on the clock below 8 hours, then what they are actually promoting is a fixed time slot model, whether one knows that or not. 

 

I actually believe that 8 hours on the clock are the maximum AND minimum amount of time for the 24 hour, round the clock, model. 

 

 

Your model is intriguing, and I was earnestly trying to understand it before. I still have trepidation from a "anything that can happen, will happen" perspective. Because, as you know, nothing is ever perfectly clean, particularly when it comes to our time slotting in the current mock draft. 

 

It's nice to use whole round numbers for examples, but we hardly ever get put on the clock at exact whole number times. 

 

My first day of drafting occurred on April 4th. It was the 3rd round and I had my first pick with #68 overall. I came on the clock early in the morning that day, right around 6:48 in the AM. But I had another selection that night, #80 overall. 

 

 

So, for example, I came on the clock at 8:27 PM on April 4th, for the #80th overall selection. I made the pick at 9:52 PM here in this mock.

But let me just play with that example and plug it into your model for an exercise. 

 

So, I'm on the east coast, and let's pretend that I select the 12 AM to 4 AM "dead clock slot," to offset those hours when I'm most likely to be asleep. 

In the 4 hour time limit model, I would have been put on the clock at 8:27 PM, 4 hours later is 12:27 AM, but what about the dead clock slot? 

 

Let's pretend that I don't make my selection quickly like I did here in this year's mock. Let's pretend that I allow the time to runoff from 8:27 PM all the way to 12 Midnight. Now, that would have meant that I only exhausted 3 hours and 33 minutes of my allotted 4 hours on the clock. I still have 27 minutes of allotted time. 

 

And by hitting 12 Midnight, which is the start of my dead clock slot, shouldn't I then be able to push my selection deadline all the way to 4:27 AM?

I think so. That would mean a total of 8 hours to make my selection. 

 

 

But let's just add the aspect of the GM who is selecting directly behind me at #81 overall. Let's pretend that they too are on the east coast, they too have selected the 12 AM to 4 AM dead clock slot, but they were active and online at 8:27 PM, as was I, the night of April 4th. They stay online through the hours I allow to runoff between 8:27 PM and 12 Midnight. They continually check the thread periodically and wait for my 4 hours to come due. 

 

Ultimately I don't make the selection between 8:27 PM and 12 Midnight. 

 

Let's also add the wrinkle that the GM who is selecting at #81 overall is not completely "informed" about the rules of our 4 hours "on the clock" model which has the 4 hours of "dead clock slot" added. Let's pretend that they only know that we have 4 hours to make our pick. Which is not that uncommon of an occurrence (being misinformed). We have GMs who routinely confuse certain aspects of our current mock draft model, as it is. We actually had a GM make a selection this year before they ever went "officially" on the clock.

 

Let's pretend that the GM at #81 usually goes to bed around 12 Midnight, but since they can do simple math and realize that 4 hours added to 8:27 PM equals 12:27 AM, they decide to stay up in order to make their selection before going to bed. Let's also presume that the GM at #81 overall is a standard human being and they sleep for 8 hours at a time. 

 

So, I rightfully let the clock run to 12 Midnight, I know the rules, and I understand that I have until 4:27 AM to make my selection. But GM #81 doesn't know that. At 12:27 AM they pop into the thread and announce their pick. I'll just use the player I selected at #80 overall in this year's mock draft as an example (Kemoko Turay). 

 

Ok. 

So, GM #81 selects Turay (who is going to be my selection for #80 overall). And slowly over the course of the next half-an-hour, people respond to the GM #81 saying that it isn't their turn, they can't make the selection, it's not valid. I show up and protest and say: "wait a minute, I have until 4:27 AM to make my pick, what's going on?" 

 

Who knows if GM#81 is even around. As has been the case sometimes before, a GM makes a pick, disappears 5 minutes later and no one can get a hold of them. Usually it takes at least 10 minutes for the average response time in the thread, especially during off hours, when something goes (as GHH likes to say) "tits up." 

 

 

So, I eventually make my pick at 4:26 AM, just before the deadline. The clock ticks over to 4:27 AM a few seconds after I make my post for selection #80. The GM #81 is then officially on the clock for 4 hours, until 8:27 AM. 

When I arrive, I make my selection for Kemoko Turay. I announce his selection for #80 overall. I reiterate the rules in place, I point out GM #81's miscalculation and tell them that they have to select a different player. 

 

Well, GM #81 after making their pick at 12:27 AM, unbeknownst to them that they screwed up, logs off and goes to bed at 12:45 AM, they sleep for 8 hours. When they get up they get ready for work. They don't check ES. Since they aren't aware of the snafu, they lapse on their time limit at 8:27 AM. Time comes and goes and they get skipped. 

 

The next GM, #82, does whatever the hell they do. But let's just say that GM #82 shows up somewhere around 9 AM and takes the second player listed on GM #81's list. So ... you follow? Right now GM #81 not only lost Turay to me, because they were a dumbass, but they also lose their next best choice because they got skipped. 

 

 

Eventually GM #81 shows up (IDK, maybe around 9:45 AM) reads all the posts, sees all the few dozens of notifications and quotes that they got while offline. They come into the thread and are first perplexed, then upset, and eventually complain. They argue that it wasn't fair that I got 8 hours to use to make my pick while they ultimately only got 4 hours. They complain that it wasn't clear that I was going to use the dead clock slot to bolster my time limit. They argue that since they went to bed at 12:45 AM and sleep for 8 hours, how possibly could they have been around between 4:27 AM and 8:27 AM. They claim it was unfair that they got skipped because they were uninformed, that they never got a notification until after they logged off at 12:35 AM, etc. 

 

 

All I detailed above could easily happen. So, GM #81 throws their hands up in the air, they call the mock draft in abeyance, they say it's unfair, and they quit on the spot. I could see a scenario where this type of thing happens more than once. I can see situations where GMs who never got the benefit of the dead clock slot to add more time to their allotted 4 hours could become bitter and resentful of those GMs who did get the real, actual, extra benefit of 4 hours of dead clock. 

 

I mean, unless every single GM gets the benefit of the dead clock, in actuality, then those who don't get it have been unfairly "screwed."

 

And since the mock draft is too dynamic and ever shifting to predict when exactly any one GM is going to be put on the clock, I find it "impossible" to predict if every GM will get the dead clock slot benefit equal amounts of times. 

 

I mean, I'm going to check to see if there were any selections of mine where I came onto the clock between 12 midnight and 4 AM, but there certainly must have been some GMs who never got that occurrence. 

 

I understand that any one GM can pick any 4 hour block of the day ... I just foresee situations where there will be a number of skips despite the altruistic effort you put forth there with the 4 hour dead clock slot. 

 

 

I'm just throwing that out there because I can see that happening. 

 

So that just brings me back full circle. If we decrease the time limit on the clock below 8 hours, then what people are asking for is a fixed slot draft. Otherwise, 8 hours on the clock is the minimum amount of time that folks need and is also the maximum time needed, I'd argue. 

 

As it stands now, with the 24 hour round the clock model, we averaged more than 8 picks a day and finished well before the start of the real draft. 

 

[ComManDersFan57]

Just a few thoughts:

 

The primary frustration we are trying to avoid is skips. It seems to me that this is going to happen regardless.

 

The four hour dead clock could be quite complicated to track. I would have to have a different 4 hour window each day because my schedule varies too much. If I understand correctly, one could say that their clock is dead from 12:00 pm - 4:00 pm. So, if they are on the clock at 8:00 am, their time wouldn't be up until 8:00 pm. How is this different than just giving 12 hours per pick? As I said, I may not understand the concept properly. 

 

I don't think that we'd be able to find a third party commissioner. It's a major commitment. (Thanks Epoch for all you've done.) I think the commissioner should volunteer. If we decide to vote for one, then only those who want the position should be considered. A co-commissioner could be helpful. 

 

I think the commissioner should be the one to set the rules. It may be helpful to spell out GM responsibilities in the OP as it may weed some people out. There will be times when life takes precedence even for the most dedicated GM's. We have to accept this.

 

I see nothing wrong with the way we conduct the mock now other than the fairness to those who get screwed by a skipped GM who takes their guy. However, that's how the NFL does it.

 

Above all, let's remember that we do this for fun. Even though we all do lots of research and spend a lot of time on our boards, it's a game.