BatteredFanSyndrome Posted February 4, 2018 Share Posted February 4, 2018 3 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said: If you think Bruce Allen is incompetent then you can't root for the team? Ridiculous. What is Bruce my wife? I got to dig him through thick and thin and always give him the benefit of the doubt. Your same logic would have many fans from many teams bailing. But this thought does explain the method to the madness to all your posts on said topic. Yeah you can root for a team and think the FO is incompetent. I've been doing it for years. I presume that means you thought Vinny had it going on, too? This logic can't just be all about Bruce right? You know this people can be fired right? We aren't stuck with Bruce though thick and thin. I don't have a Bruce Allen jersey. Bruce's 40% win record is just bad luck, he totally knows what he's doing and we're just pricks for calling him out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted February 4, 2018 Share Posted February 4, 2018 Just listened to Grant Paulsen who has been digging on the story. The gist of it is this: A. They don't like coming out of this with a comp pick at best B. Bruce-Kirk don't care for each other. So in addition to getting more compensation, Bruce doesn't love the idea of Kirk winning and choosing his spot. There would be some poetry to Bruce dictating Kirk's spot. C. On a scale of 0-10 -- Grant thinks their effort will be about an 8 to pull off a trade D. On a scale of 0-10. Grant gives it a 2 that they will successfully pull off a trade E. All Kirk's agent has to do is tell the Redskins potential trade partner that he won't do a LTC with that team and that in effect would likely kill the deal right away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carex Posted February 4, 2018 Share Posted February 4, 2018 7 minutes ago, kingdaddy said: If you really think about this situation it's becoming a very interesting and unique set of circumstances. If I'm Bruce, I'm tapping into some of the retired GM's who I might be friendly with and getting their suggestions on how to handle this now that we've acquired Alex Smith. The Redskins have a chance to hold the rights to two high profile QB's and could very well come out of this with compensation for one of them if they can figure out how to gage the interest of other teams and see if they can drum up a sign and trade deal. Acquiring Smith this early gives the team some leverage in how they want to play this out because they know they have him to fall back on. While Allen has painted himself into a corner in some ways, in other ways he has the protection of having Smith so he can try now to find a buyer for KC while trying to limit KC's options and hoping he consents to a sign and trade. Obviously, the key is how much risk does Bruce want to take in that someone else will blink before he does? Think about it, how long does KC want this to go on and be held in limbo? How long do the Skins want this to go on and be held in limbo? If KC really wants to go to Denver and the Skins know that, why can't a reasonable deal be worked out where everyone is happy? If I'm Denver, I have to have Cousins because grooming young guys takes too long and is too risky. I also don't want Minnesota getting a chance to woo him to their team. Like I said in a previous post, Bruce Allen is in no hurry to wish KC well and say goodbye because this thing may have a ways to go before it plays out. Just like we wanted to get our QB house in order before the offseason free agency/draft/mini camps etc...same goes for the Jets, Browns, Broncos, Vikes and others. If they want KC bad enough, why not make an offer and lock him in asap rather than be caught waiting for this to play out? Ring, ring, ring....."Hey Bruce, this is John Elway, it seems you're in a spot that none of us want to be caught in, maybe I can help you out. If you let us talk to KC and work out a long term deal we'll give you a player and a 4th round pick. We need to trim some payroll and might have some guys who can help your roster. Bruce: "I'm listening....I don't want the world for KC, just reasonable compensation that a starting QB in this league commands. How bout you give us a 4th round pick and we swap first round picks. We'll also take Talib if you need to release him to sign KC. You get cap space and a starting QB and we get reasonable compensation. Done. Is this a pipe dream scenario? Maybe, but it may not be far off of how the Skins are thinking....as unrealistic as it may sound. why would it even need to be back channel. If the Skins can work out one trade now they can work out another. And the Skins do have one advantage they can use. They can trade Kirk where he wants to go. Say he really does want to go to Denver. Tell Denver we're franchising him and work out the trade. He shows up in Denver you think he's really going to say "I am really glad to be here Mr. Elway, and I hope after next year we can work out an agreement, but I'm playing on the tag this year." If he does then he's more screwed up in the head than I thought he was Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordranger76 Posted February 4, 2018 Share Posted February 4, 2018 So I understand this. IF Kirk tells the other team he wont sign a long term deal can't that team just transition tag him and match the offer or am I missing something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goskins10 Posted February 4, 2018 Share Posted February 4, 2018 1 minute ago, carex said: why would it even need to be back channel. If the Skins can work out one trade now they can work out another. And the Skins do have one advantage they can use. They can trade Kirk where he wants to go. Say he really does want to go to Denver. Tell Denver we're franchising him and work out the trade. He shows up in Denver you think he's really going to say "I am really glad to be here Mr. Elway, and I hope after next year we can work out an agreement, but I'm playing on the tag this year." If he does then he's more screwed up in the head than I thought he was ut he can go to Denver after March 14th anyway without compensation to the Redskins. He decides if he goes somewhere else. So if he wants to go there he can just go there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BatteredFanSyndrome Posted February 4, 2018 Share Posted February 4, 2018 5 minutes ago, fordranger76 said: If we somehow get a 2nd round pick for this mess then what? We still laughing at Bruce then? Well probably. But still if he managed to pull this off he would have to get some form of credit no? Sure. Better question, if they try this and end up somehow carrying 50m in QB salaries, tying up the cap and missing out on free agents, will the homers finally admit that we've been onto something in regards to how badly this guy sucks at his job? I think not. The logo always wins with some folks, just like the party in politics. Nevermind what they are actually doing, just convince themselves it's for the greater good, no matter how deep they have to dig to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordranger76 Posted February 4, 2018 Share Posted February 4, 2018 1 minute ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said: Sure. Better question, if they try this and end up somehow carrying 50m in QB salaries, tying up the cap and missing out on free agents, will the homers finally admit that we've been onto something in regards to how badly this guy sucks at his job? I think not. The logo always wins with some folks, just like the party in politics. Nevermind what they are actually doing, just convince themselves it's for the greater good, no matter how deep they have to dig to do so. Oh I never said he was good. Nor do I think he is even capable. In fact I think it's a huge awful risk to even try this. But if it works? Damn. Guy might know more than we give credit for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CommanderDOOM Posted February 4, 2018 Share Posted February 4, 2018 4 minutes ago, goskins10 said: If you are implying that if he refuses to sign with one team others will shut him out... Saying ' if any team does this or that' might not go over well. Can't open the Flood gates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BatteredFanSyndrome Posted February 4, 2018 Share Posted February 4, 2018 1 minute ago, fordranger76 said: Oh I never said he was good. Nor do I think he is even capable. In fact I think it's a huge awful risk to even try this. But if it works? Damn. Guy might know more than we give credit for. I don't know if I'd equate it to being smart as much as I'd consider it another shrewd move that actually ended up getting something good out of it. I'd also consider Kirk and his agent less than real men if they played nicely enough to allow the team to get something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carex Posted February 4, 2018 Share Posted February 4, 2018 9 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said: If you think Bruce Allen is incompetent then you can't root for the team? Ridiculous. What is Bruce my wife? I got to dig him through thick and thin and always give him the benefit of the doubt. Your same logic would have many fans from many teams bailing. But this thought does explain the method to the madness to all your posts on said topic. Yeah you can root for a team and think the FO is incompetent. I've been doing it for years. I presume that means you thought Vinny had it going on, too? This logic can't just be all about Bruce right? You know this people can be fired right? We aren't stuck with Bruce though thick and thin. I don't have a Bruce Allen jersey. yes he can be fired. And the same people who hired and fired him would be the one's picking his replacement. If you think his boss is incompetent then you should expect a never ending cycle of suckiness. And I know my logic would have many teams fans bailing. I'm in favor of that. Disgruntled fans should leave. Not just in football. In all of fandom. Your favorite band changes their sound? Listen to their old music, and find a new current one to support. If those you support don't satisfy you, move on and if you like you can come back when things change 9 minutes ago, goskins10 said: ut he can go to Denver after March 14th anyway without compensation to the Redskins. He decides if he goes somewhere else. So if he wants to go there he can just go there. not with the franchise tag he can't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted February 4, 2018 Share Posted February 4, 2018 1 minute ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said: Bruce's 40% win record is just bad luck, he totally knows what he's doing and we're just pricks for calling him out. I guess so. Cheers to Bruce! Heck, I even met Bruce, he was a charming dude but these executives don't have me infatuated with them. Scot was charming as heck but again he was just a suit in the FO my fandom wasn't tied to the dude. Even if I played with the anti-Kirkers take here. Post all of this, I just don't see how the takeaway is to prop Bruce on your shoulders and say thankfully this is the dude making the decisions for our team! If Kirk isn't the guy and he's all the bad things that his detractors say he is. Then trade the dude in 2017 when you can get actual value for him. Besides not losing their franchise QBs -- teams don't let their QBs walk for just about nothing. Ask Andy Reid. So unless Bruce pulls off a miracle (and I am rooting that he does) and gets a team to not only bite but bite with good value for a trade of Kirk -- then he botched this regardless of the perspective on Kirk. If you like Kirk -- the negotiations IMO is an F If you don't like Kirk -- the negotiations IMO is an F unless they get a first rounder for him The other thing is Craig Hoffman said today Bruce's job is on the line (he's not the only beat reporters to say that). The Kirk drill doesn't have Dan jumping up and down and saying atta boy Bruce from what people are saying. So if people are going to be all about Bruce they might be disillusioned next year because he might be gone. And don't get me wrong, I'd love for Bruce to pull off trade compensation. I am rooting for him to do it. It's been my rallying cry for weeks on the other Kirk thread. But I got my doubts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rumplestilskin Posted February 4, 2018 Share Posted February 4, 2018 The only way they slap the tag is if they have a deal already in place. This news leak is phase one of posturing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinsFTW Posted February 4, 2018 Share Posted February 4, 2018 4 minutes ago, carex said: If you think his boss is incompetent then you should expect a never ending cycle of suckiness. With Doofus Dan, what else is there to expect? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carex Posted February 4, 2018 Share Posted February 4, 2018 10 minutes ago, fordranger76 said: Oh I never said he was good. Nor do I think he is even capable. In fact I think it's a huge awful risk to even try this. But if it works? Damn. Guy might know more than we give credit for. I just tend to be an all or nothing guy. If you're going to play it safe, play it safe. If you're in favor of rsk, be in favor of risk 3 minutes ago, SkinsFTW said: With Doofus Dan, what else is there to expect? then why expect anything but failure? If that's all you expect why re you here? Do you get some joy in sucking out other people's hope? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhead36 Posted February 4, 2018 Share Posted February 4, 2018 There is absolutely no reason, NONE, for Cousins to agree to any sort of trade deal. Why should he? If we franchise him he can just sign the tender and can get a cool $35 Mil and screw the team over. He's not getting traded. Period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted February 4, 2018 Share Posted February 4, 2018 11 minutes ago, carex said: yes he can be fired. And the same people who hired and fired him would be the one's picking his replacement. If you think his boss is incompetent then you should expect a never ending cycle of suckiness. I think Dan is an emotional dude who can't help but get involved at times, brings a culture of fear and politics into that building and messes things up. I've been a Yankee fan forever (grew up in NJ) and Steinbrenner was the same way. Eventually, he got old and wore down. There was extenuating circumstances to it -- which I've debated in other threads and don't feel like doing that here again. But I followed that team as strongly as the Redskins. Eventually the tide turned. That's my feint hope with this team. When I watch them play on Sundays. I am not thinking about Bruce and Dan but the players on the field. So me digging the players and the history of the franchise transcends the FO. I grew up with Cooke-Gibbs-Beathard. They were winners and exuded class. My memories run deep with the team. My feeling is I am not throwing that out the window because I don't like Dan. But I don't judge others who do, I get it. But yeah as for you telling me or other people whether we should be fans or not. You have a right to that opinion. But IMO its none of your business. I can argue with people on points. But I am never saying agree with me or bail on the team. I gather you don't mean it that way but the concept that you define fandom for others on your terms comes off arrogant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinsFTW Posted February 4, 2018 Share Posted February 4, 2018 2 hours ago, carex said: I think the only thing that will change is teams will be less willing to wait till they're sure about someone. Not being positive someone is your guy will be same as deciding he isn't Which was the exact point made way back in 2015 that if Bruce Allen isn't going to sign KC long term then he was essentially betting against him and our team by franchising him. And still the imbeciles continue the Saga of Ineptitude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wilco_holland Posted February 4, 2018 Share Posted February 4, 2018 Ugh do I need to follow this Kirk drama for longer? Can we just release him right now... It's annoying ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordranger76 Posted February 4, 2018 Share Posted February 4, 2018 So do we honestly think he won't sign a franchise tag? Think about it. You think this guy wont take a free 35 million dollars? If he doesn't sign he sits out the whole year and gets nothing. The guy would be a fool not to take 35 million dollars. Insane. He will sign that thing. And you all would too. It would be like finding a lottery ticket that won 35 million and not cashing it in because of pride. Secondly the team that is interested in trading for him. Ok if he says he wont sign I don't see why he cant just be transitioned tagged and then he is there anyways. I guess the point is when the whole giving the Redskins a favor is he really? He is still getting 35 million dollars? Some of you act like that's not a big deal. Maybe I am a complete moron but I clearly see a path to this working. Maybe I am just blind. I dunno anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinsFTW Posted February 4, 2018 Share Posted February 4, 2018 10 minutes ago, carex said: then why expect anything but failure? If that's all you expect why re you here? Do you get some joy in sucking out other people's hope? Weren't you supposed to have followed RGme to the Browns a couple years ago? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goskins10 Posted February 4, 2018 Share Posted February 4, 2018 1 minute ago, carex said: yes he can be fired. And the same people who hired and fired him would be the one's picking his replacement. If you think his boss is incompetent then you should expect a never ending cycle of suckiness. And I know my logic would have many teams fans bailing. I'm in favor of that. Disgruntled fans should leave. Not just in football. In all of fandom. Your favorite band changes their sound? Listen to their old music, and find a new current one to support. If those you support don't satisfy you, move on and if you like you can come back when things change not with the franchise tag he can't. Of course not. That was not the conversation. I never said that. I personally think they have no real intention of tagging him. I believe it's an effort to get a team to blink and offer something now and form a team Kirk would go to. I know people like the idea of the team playing super hardball here. But it will have ramifications to other FAs and even those already on the team. For me, it's an antagonistic move that will just create bad blood between the FO and players, not just Kirk. What's interesting is that you are OK with the team being mercenary but not Kirk. Just an observation. For me, this whole tag him thing is stupid. There is virtually no value other than Bruce trying desperately to save face and/or to be vindictive. All it does is keep everyone pissed off. Just move on. Let Kirk be Kirk and let the fans start getting into Alex. While I am not happy about how it got here, I am not an anti-Alex guy or a cupboard is bare person either. He is now the Redskins QB so I will support him just as much as I did Kirk and Robert before him. It will be interesting to see how he fits into Jay's offense. I think he will fit in well. Some of Alex's not going down field is Andy's offense. He runs a WCO like Jay but does not be nature push the ball down field as much. Jay's is a bit more aggressive. Could be a good fit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rumplestilskin Posted February 4, 2018 Share Posted February 4, 2018 15 minutes ago, Warhead36 said: There is absolutely no reason, NONE, for Cousins to agree to any sort of trade deal. Why should he? If we franchise him he can just sign the tender and can get a cool $35 Mil and screw the team over. He's not getting traded. Period. Elway has a lot of pressure on him right now to land Kirk. He is also a master of persuasion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted February 4, 2018 Share Posted February 4, 2018 46 minutes ago, fordranger76 said: If we somehow get a 2nd round pick for this mess then what? We still laughing at Bruce then? Well probably. But still if he managed to pull this off he would have to get some form of credit no? My grades on Bruce A. Front and center as to the dude Kirk and his agent doesn't like and it colored negotaitions right through today. Grade F B. Turning down Kirk's agent counter proposal in 2016. Grade F. C. Starting 2017 with a low ball offer setting the tone of that years negotiations. Grade F. D. Likely adding some editorial for why Kirk doesn't deserve more than that offer to launch the negotiations. Grade F. E. In retrospect, not trading Kirk in 2017 if he didn't think he'd be back in 2018. Grade F. F. Kicking Scot out the door in a nasty way -- affirming that's how he rolls. Grade F. G. Working to mend fences with Kirk and his agent in the Spring of 2017. Grade A. H. Following that up with a slightly better deal, not a great deal but not laughable. Grade C. I. Following that the press release squandering the good will. Grade F. J. Still hearing through a few minutes ago about animosity between Bruce-Kirk, Kirk's agent. Grade F. K. Getting Alex Smith. B+. I like him as a player. L. Losing Kirk and getting a 4 year older replacement -- and not gaining a pick but losing a pick and one of your best young players. F. My 2 cents. If he gets a 2nd round pick for Kirk. That would change a little the narrative about not trading him in 2017. But its still little value compared to what other teams have gotten from worse players including both of our deals with Andy Reid under Bruce. But I agree, I'd be happy if they pull off a miracle like that considering the context which is it doesn't seem likely and they did it anyway. Not happy from the stand point that I'd think Bruce played it brilliantly all along. that's crazy to me. But it would take a little sting out of the ineptitude if they pulled off a deal that seems on the surface very unlikely. And as a big draft guy, I'd enjoy getting something to make up for the third round pick lost. I really think if some of the people who didn't like Kirk and or wanting him gone didn't feel so intensely on that front -- Bruce would really have few allies on the contract because like I said I don't see how he played it well for either audience. The sign Kirk people or the don't sign Kirk people. I am saying this more dramatically than I mean to make a point -- but it plays into the enemy of my enemy is my friend. Bruce is sort of a defacto ally by osmosis to some (not all) of the people who wanted Kirk gone. But if you get past that and look at this non-emotionally even from I want Kirk gone perspective -- I just don't see the logic of how he played it well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Est.1974 Posted February 4, 2018 Share Posted February 4, 2018 33 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said: D. On a scale of 0-10. Grant gives it a 2 that they will successfully pull off a trade E. All Kirk's agent has to do is tell the Redskins potential trade partner that he won't do a LTC with that team and that in effect would likely kill the deal right away. 20% chance ain't that awful in the circumstances. Interesting that CLE didn't want to extend Smith like we have. So his agent may decline the LTC from a team like CLE, but they seem willing to take the risk on a one year deal. I think they could also (not sure though) then apply the exclusive tag in 2019, which brings 2 firsts in return if he was poached....Or he stays with them on another one year deal. All possible on a team with a boat load of picks, 100mil in cap space and a FO that thinks outside of the box. Seems like a good speculative risk for CLE in my eyes. So with that in mind, Kirks agent may want to play ball to avoid that happening and get his client across to Denver instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carex Posted February 4, 2018 Share Posted February 4, 2018 25 minutes ago, Warhead36 said: There is absolutely no reason, NONE, for Cousins to agree to any sort of trade deal. Why should he? If we franchise him he can just sign the tender and can get a cool $35 Mil and screw the team over. He's not getting traded. Period. he makes 35 million, doesn't get to play, the teams he wants to play for move on and he loses a year of his prime hell if nothing else some team might trade a disgruntled player of their's for him in a variation of last year's Brock Osweiler deal 19 minutes ago, SkinsFTW said: Weren't you supposed to have followed RGme to the Browns a couple years ago? no. I don't put any player above the Skins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.