Rufus T Firefly Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 For example: http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000340444/article/alex-mack-signs-5year-42m-offer-sheet-with-jaguars Since I'm bringing up Mack, it should be noted that that offer sheet contained a no-trade clause. Which, just like any kind of signing bonus, would render the idea of matching and then dealing Cousins under such a tag, completely unworkable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonez3 Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 2 minutes ago, Rufus T Firefly said: Yes, and when teams sign Transition tagged players to offer sheets, they don't have to be. I just read other team can offer full deals... But, if we trade after matching the other teams offer, we still eats entire signing bonus if traded before season starts?? But again, what's the harm in tagging him them? If a team offers a LTD with signing bonus good for KC (we'd be doing him a favor because he could say no). If he says yes, good for KC ( he's going to a team and contract he likes). We simply don't match and no harm, no foul and no cap hit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nerm Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 6 minutes ago, Bonez3 said: See above... the transition tag is a one year deal The transition tag would be 28 mil for one year, IF Kirk did not sign a LTD somewhere else (which he is allowed to do). Any deal he signs would replace the one year deal, and the Skins could then choose to match the LTD or let him go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonez3 Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 10 minutes ago, Nerm said: I may have phrased my point confusingly. I'm not saying they would add a special clause in the contract to make it hard on the Skins. I'm saying most large contracts include signing bonuses. So, most large contracts make it hard to trade a player the first year, because the full signing bonus hits the cap if a player is traded (rather than being prorated over the course of the deal). In a "match and trade" scenario, the Redskins would be on the hook for the signing bonus. If a team signed Kirk to a Stafford type deal, I think the signing bonus was 50 mil. It would make no sense for the Skins to match, unless they were going to keep him as a starter. Yea- I just hashed this out with Rufus. So, simply don't match. C'est la vie. Almost like doing Kurt a favor as he can refuse open market offers before FA- he'll get good feel for team truly interested before FA. If his true suitor doesn't step up (and they'd have to step up because the transition tag is ~27mil, he can say no), he can wait to FA... OR AGREE TO TRADE WHICH SKINS WOULD BE HAPPY TO FACILITATE 4 minutes ago, Nerm said: The transition tag would be 28 mil for one year, IF Kirk did not sign a LTD somewhere else (which he is allowed to do). Any deal he signs would replace the one year deal, and the Skins could then choose to match the LTD or let him go. Right... let him go. And obviously Kurt would be happy because he agreed to it. Win-win Are the skins really looking to sign L Bell in the first hours of FA. I don't think missing out on the first week of FA is really a big loss for this team. Bit we won't anyway because even with a transition tagged Kurt we'll have 10 mil free for the week we're arranging for this 1st rounder I'm essentially willing into the team at this point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rufus T Firefly Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 2 minutes ago, Bonez3 said: I just read other team can offer full deals... But, if we trade after matching the other teams offer, we still eats entire signing bonus if traded before season starts?? But again, what's the harm in tagging him them? If a team offers a LTD with signing bonus good for KC (we'd be doing him a favor because he could say no). If he says yes, good for KC ( he's going to a team and contract he likes). We simply don't match and no harm, no foul and no cap hit Yes, we'd have to eat the entire signing bonus. Pending the details of Alex Smith's contract, we may or may not have enough space to fit Cousins' Transition tag on the books. We might have to cut players or restructure deals to do so. At best, we'd be severely limited in doing anything on the Free Agent market. All to keep a right of first refusal on Kirk Cousins that there is pretty literally zero chance that we'd actually be able to utilize. So, if the Redskins wanted to hamstring themselves financially for no reason, putting the tag on Cousins would be a good way to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nerm Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 The downside of the transition tag is that you don't get a comp pick if he signs elsewhere, and it ties up 28 mil in cap space until he does sign somewhere. I just don't see any upside to the transition tag, unless you want to keep him long term. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonez3 Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 1 minute ago, Rufus T Firefly said: Yes, we'd have to eat the entire signing bonus. Pending the details of Alex Smith's contract, we may or may not have enough space to fit Cousins' Transition tag on the books. We might have to cut players or restructure deals to do so. At best, we'd be severely limited in doing anything on the Free Agent market. All to keep a right of first refusal on Kirk Cousins that there is pretty literally zero chance that we'd actually be able to utilize. So, if the Redskins wanted to hamstring themselves financially for no reason, putting the tag on Cousins would be a good way to do it. No... simply don't match and make Kurt happy. See above 1 minute ago, Nerm said: The downside of the transition tag is that you don't get a comp pick if he signs elsewhere, and it ties up 28 mil in cap space until he does sign somewhere. I just don't see any upside to the transition tag, unless you want to keep him long term. I bet we make a bunch of stupid moves and don't get compensation pick anyway. They aren't guaranteed and also depend on how active you add players to Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rufus T Firefly Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 1 minute ago, Bonez3 said: No... simply don't match and make Kurt happy. See above Which is what I mean by doing it for zero reason. And you have to carry him, at near 29 mil, until he signs an offer sheet and we don't match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinny21 Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 Pretty confident we won’t be able to spend enough in FA to match Kirk’s contract (or even close to it), unless we trade Norman and Reed. Doubt the FO has the cajones for that, but I suppose you never know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goskins10 Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 1 hour ago, UK SKINS FAN '74 said: It's not just Bruce. Grudens fingerprints are all over this one too. I would wager he's damn happy with Smith as his QB. No bull, I reckon he'd take Smith over Cousins. So Jay who is the HC that actually benched Robert and put Kirk in: and yes he was the one pushing with Scot, that has been developing him for 4 yrs - 3 as a starter - a guy who totally understands his offense, who has been very successful, decided to tell Bruce, forget this Kirk Cousins guy - he sucks! Give me some 5 yr older version so I can spend the next 12 months teaching yet another person this offense!! Oh and while you are at it - can you ship off one of our draft picks - we are so good at drafting we don't need it - and just for fun get rid of one of my better and younger offensive players from a bad offense and, AND let Kirk go for nothing!! Yea, this has Jay written all over it!! Sorry, but give me a break here!! This is all Bruce Allen and Dan Snyder!!! Maybe, just maybe Doug Williams deserves some shrapnel. But Jay? Here is how I believe the conversation went down - and I would about bet money it's not far off - Bruce - We just do not think Kirk is worth the money he will want. I know we could have had him for less, but that's his fault. He would not sign the low ball offers we gave him - the prick. Jay - So what are we doing at QB? Colt is a back-up. Bruce - We think we can get Alex Smith. What do you think? Jay - I think you should sign Kirk Cousins!! Bruce - That ship has sailed. He really doesn't like it here even after the wonderful things we have tried to do for him - you know like refuse to get a running game, make sure we have a bottom dwelling defense, get rid of NFL caliber targets and rely on unproven players, and of course who could forget the awful way he treated us last year refusing to even negotiate. ****ing prick! o what about Alex Smith! Jay - I think you are ****ing nuts! You need to make it work with Kirk! We have spent too much time with him and he is a great guy, knows the system, and is a great locker room presence. Bruce - That is just not happening. We need to get past it. So what about Alex? Jay - Sure, he is decent guy. Nice arm (better than given credit), accurate, doesn't make mistakes, but is not flashy. I mean he is a solid guy. Bruce - Great! You love him! We will get this done just for you Jay! You are our guy!! Jay - Wait?? WTF? What about Kirk? Why not make that work? Bruce - Glad you are on board with Alex! This is going to work out great! BTW: We are giving up our 3rd this year and sending Kendall Fuller too! Jay - Are you kidding me?? Tell me that's not true!!! Bruce - As he walks out the door --- Thanks again Jay! I appreciate your support here! We will make it happen just for you! Get ready for Alex Smith! You are our guy here! You can make it work! We have confidence! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taylorcooley1 Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 So now that the dust has somewhat settled and we have got into it is what it is mode how come we couldn't have just made up a six-year contract paying Kirk enough to make him happy and the organization happy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taylorcooley1 Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 Goskins I think you are spot on..very sad but true.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goskins10 Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 8 minutes ago, Rufus T Firefly said: Which is what I mean by doing it for zero reason. And you have to carry him, at near 29 mil, until he signs an offer sheet and we don't match. This is something people are really missing with the whole tag him and force him thing that is BTW never happening. Once they tag him that nubmer becomes part of their 2018 salary, all of it against the CAP. I was holding out hope for a tag and trade. But the facts are that is just not happening .It makes no sense for Kirk to help them before the FA deadline and it makes no sense for the Redskins to tag him without a deal in place and Kirk on board. Need to just get used to the fact that Bruce not only found a way to move Kirk out of Washington, a QB that the highest value commodity in the NFL, he did so with out getting any compensation at all! Nothing! That kind of incompetence is really hard to come by. If it were not so pathetic it would impressive just how poorly Bruce has hosed this up. Quite frankly it is only exceeded by Dan's inability to see just how bad this really is. Mini Me strikes again! Take the glasses off and tell me they are not the same person!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonez3 Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 2 minutes ago, goskins10 said: This is something people are really missing with the whole tag him and force him thing that is BTW never happening. Once they tag him that nubmer becomes part of their 2018 salary, all of it against the CAP. Wrong... not if another team offers him a better contract or he is traded to another team Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rufus T Firefly Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 5 minutes ago, goskins10 said: This is something people are really missing with the whole tag him and force him thing that is BTW never happening. Once they tag him that nubmer becomes part of their 2018 salary, all of it against the CAP. I was holding out hope for a tag and trade. But the facts are that is just not happening .It makes no sense for Kirk to help them before the FA deadline and it makes no sense for the Redskins to tag him without a deal in place and Kirk on board. Need to just get used to the fact that Bruce not only found a way to move Kirk out of Washington, a QB that the highest value commodity in the NFL, he did so with out getting any compensation at all! Nothing! That kind of incompetence is really hard to come by. If it were not so pathetic it would impressive just how poorly Bruce has hosed this up. As the board, and the fandom in general, predictably transition to convincing themselves that this was a good outcome; that trading young talent and draft picks is the way to a bright future.... Consider that we could have made this a handshake deal with Kansas City and Smith and kept it quiet. They could have made it with the understanding that it didn't get revealed or made official until the Cousins situation was resolved. Then, the team could have tagged Cousins, or at least worked on a trade under the premise that we would tag him, and likely found a trade for him early in the process. That compensation we instead forfeited so that Bruce could announce the Smith deal. Why, so he could make the headlines about the new QB he was acquiring and not about Cousins. So, it cost the team, but it played into Bruce's PR game, and that's what really matters in the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goskins10 Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 14 minutes ago, Bonez3 said: Wrong... not if another team offers him a better contract or he is traded to another team First, you are assuming it's the transition tag. If they give him the exclusive tag - which is what they would do for a tag and trade - no other team can give him another offer - hence the reasons it's called an exclusive tag. And before you say it - although not sure you will have thought this through enough to get here - the cannot give him the non-exclusive tag. It's part of the CBA. So no matter how you look at it, you are the one who is in fact: Wrong.... More importantly, the point was, that even if they work out a trade - or they give him the transition tag and another team gives him a better offer - until a deal does happen - the money is on the books. This means that during the most critical part of free agency period they will have an extra at least $28M on their CAP. May want to think a little and do a little more research before throwing out that "Wrong". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thinking Skins Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 I really don't know how to feel about this a few days later. I've been a big proponent of the draft and defending Bruce's approach to seemingly invest in the draft and not trade away picks. I could excuse the RG3 and McNabb trades because of them being under Shanny, but what about this one. Is it because QB is such a valuable position, and they're was competition for Smith, sand Smith is seen as that much better than everybody else who will be available? I get the not wanting to place everything on the back of a rookie or a 30 year old who before this season had done almost nothing, or 2 other guys who you're not sure can stay healthy - talent questions aside. But i can't help feeling fleeced. QB is a much more valuable position than slot corner. Fuller had his best season, but after year 1 we were all wondering if he would make it. I hate losing him not really becausr of his talent but because of his youth. that said, if there's one thing i have some faith in this team with is finding corners - dating back to Bailey, Smoot, Rogers, Amerson, Breeland, Dunbar and now Fuller. That's ignoring guys like Hall, Springs, dude from Seattle who was good for a year then bad, Norman, Blackmon. I hope Hosley and Moreau are good (Moreau is great in Madden), but even if not I'm confident we can replace Fuller. But the question is has our approach changed. I can buy this being a one time move because of the unique position that Cousins put us in. But if our approach is to just get back into the 30 and over club... Man... man that sucks. The thing i like the most about Bruce is kinda what everybody hates about him. He's a shrewd businessman who tries to win every deal. That means that in negotiations he's not going to just outbid to win the competition. But i hope I'm right because if he just did that with Smith (and RG3 and McNabb) then is that really his approach? We'll see in the coming weeks. I honestly have little faith because this trade just crushed me. Hopefully we see a string of good moves this off-season that remind me that he values building a team in the draft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nerm Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 Thoughts on the Smith trade from Nerm, the friendly neighborhood Cowboys fan: I think if you look at this trade from the perspective that Kirk was already gone, the Redskins did a fairly smart thing getting Smith. He seems like the best available QB to keep the Skins competitive for the next two years. I don't see him as being as good as Cousins overall, but he is a good QB/teammate/person. Also, Smith brings different strengths to the table and will likely have a much healthier/better OL next year than Kirk had this year. Even if Kirk is the better QB overall, The Skins still have a resonable chance to improve team offensive performance next year. I understand why a lot of Skins fans are frustrated, because it seems like you are loosing a younger, better QB in this trade. However, if the Redskins knew that he was not going to sign with the Skins, either because he wanted to leave, or because the Skins were not willing to pay what he would command, then the Smith trade makes some sense. I think it is a positive that the issue was resolved now, rather than keeping it in limbo or waiting for FA to start. on the other hand, I think it makes sense for the Skins to draft a QB this year, this seems like a good draft to go QB shopping in. I will be interested to see the contract details for Smith, because I wouldn't want a drafted QB to have to sit for more than half of their rookie contract before seeing if they can play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WelshSkinsFan Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 58 minutes ago, Taylorcooley1 said: So now that the dust has somewhat settled and we have got into it is what it is mode how come we couldn't have just made up a six-year contract paying Kirk enough to make him happy and the organization happy? Hard to know what that contract would have been though and Kirk reiterated again in his interview today that he was not signing anything until March and so our other options would have run out and he would have had us over a barrel in terms of leverage. I am glad he said that because the nagging feeling for some, myself included, is that a big offer now might have won him over but he definitely appears to have confirmed that was not going to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thinking Skins Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 8 minutes ago, Nerm said: on the other hand, I think it makes sense for the Skins to draft a QB this year, this seems like a good draft to go QB shopping in. I will be interested to see the contract details for Smith, because I wouldn't want a drafted QB to have to sit for more than half of their rookie contract before seeing if they can play. I was just thinking about this in the draft thread. I think this trade opens up the possibility that the Skins can spend a 1st on a guy like Allen if he drops (unlikely) and they like him, or a lower pick on a guy like Rudolph or White. Honestly, even if Allen drops, this trade makes it a thing where we'd probably just trade down instead of picking him since he'd almost surely bring another QB controversy. But Rudolph and White, maybe eve Falk or Benkert or Ferguson are all guys who are called raw and said to need time to develop. Meanwhile Smith is 34, McCoy is 31. So we are prime for a young guy to groom for the backup, potential future starter role. And with word being that this draft is so deep at QB, it may be the perfect time to start that process of grooming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Stupid Loser Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 3 hours ago, WelshSkinsFan said: Where is that factually wrong though? The top prospects go in the top 10 where we are not selecting. Good quarterbacks can be found further down in the draft it is true but it is a lottery. The boom/bust rate on Quarterbacks taken number 1 overall is only around 50% and that gets drastically lower the later they are selected. Maybe there is a Tom Brady or a Russell Wilson in this draft but ask yourself this, do you think Doug Williams and Bruce Allen are going to find him? Maybe we could find a Kirk Cousins in he 4th round. Wouldn't that be great? But yeah, they won't find him and if they do they won't pay him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FS#21 Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 I'm just...dumbfounded that we're about to re-live the 2004-2006 period only this time no Coach Gibbs around. The only hope is that somehow they can recreate the magic of 2005 and not completely botch the 2020 offseason like they did heading into 2006. Sigh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BleedBNG Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 1 hour ago, Nerm said: I understand why a lot of Skins fans are frustrated, because it seems like you are loosing a younger, better QB in this trade. No, that's not it. OK, for some it is but for others it's more of losing Kendall Fuller. I'll admit it's strange that for a player in high demand in this league that we could at least get a pick or player in some sort of trade... a plus. But instead it went into a minus because most here don't want Colt starting this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nerm Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 11 minutes ago, BleedBNG said: No, that's not it. OK, for some it is but for others it's more of losing Kendall Fuller. I'll admit it's strange that for a player in high demand in this league that we could at least get a pick or player in some sort of trade... a plus. But instead it went into a minus because most here don't want Colt starting this year. I do think one of the major downsides on the trade is loosing Fuller. Not just his play on the field. From what I read, he was a guy intensely focused on making himself the best he could be. Losing him, while also moving on from Kirk (who also appears obsessed with learning and improving), is a rough hit on the team culture. When you let guys like that go, it is hard to convince others that they will be respected and rewarded for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCSaints_fan Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 I"m wonder why they didn't just transition tag Kirk and then wait until after FA or the draft to trade Smith. Edit: nevermind, I was confusing the transiition tag and the non-exclusive franchise tag. Redskins only get compensation for the later, but it costs the same as the exclusive franchise tag($34 m), which the Skins would have to carry on their salary cap until a trade went down. Which means they would have almost zero room to sign any FAs, including their own players who they have to resign. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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