End of school year teacher rant...

[Elessar78]

7 hours ago, Sacks 'n' Stuff said:

There's a lot more at play here than you are acknowledging.

There is a lot more at play BUT he's not wrong either. The mythology of what we tell ourselves matter. I'm Asian and we believe you work hard and you can get ahead in America. Other cultures mentioned before have the: it doesn't matter how hard I work, the system will always keep me down. 

 

In that mindset, when you encounter adversoty it makes it okay to accept the futility. When the message should be, nope get the **** up. 

 

I get it. I live in a Red part of my state. I get profiled at airports. Life is unfair and ugly but, tacitly, its better than the place you or your parents left so make the most of it. No America isn't unique in this regard you could go to France, UK, Germany, Sweden, Norway and grind as well. 

 

Ive gone through my "militant" phase. In college I even wrote a paper that was a bit anti-American right after 9/11. It was about  how our foreign policy sowed the seeds for the attacks. But years after, that was clearly misguided on my part. 

 

Id prefer they stand, but get it if they don't want to but the least they could do is not talk over it. Respect the fellow students who choose to it stand and recite the pledge and in turn maybe they'll respect you more for your beliefs.

[Gamebreaker]

12 hours ago, zoony said:

 

The best ways to get back at those police assholes by studying hard and becoming a lawyer maybe.  

 

Naah.  Just sit down  keep it real

 

What are we teaching our kids?  Respect this great system and WIN, or disrespect it, whine **** and LOSE?  No need to answer

 

Respect this great system? Why is it great? And who is it great for? 

[Gamebreaker]

6 hours ago, Elessar78 said:

There is a lot more at play BUT he's not wrong either. The mythology of what we tell ourselves matter. I'm Asian and we believe you work hard and you can get ahead in America. Other cultures mentioned before have the: it doesn't matter how hard I work, the system will always keep me down. 

 

In that mindset, when you encounter adversoty it makes it okay to accept the futility. When the message should be, nope get the **** up. 

 

I get it. I live in a Red part of my state. I get profiled at airports. Life is unfair and ugly but, tacitly, its better than the place you or your parents left so make the most of it. No America isn't unique in this regard you could go to France, UK, Germany, Sweden, Norway and grind as well. 

 

Ive gone through my "militant" phase. In college I even wrote a paper that was a bit anti-American right after 9/11. It was about  how our foreign policy sowed the seeds for the attacks. But years after, that was clearly misguided on my part. 

 

Id prefer they stand, but get it if they don't want to but the least they could do is not talk over it. Respect the fellow students who choose to it stand and recite the pledge and in turn maybe they'll respect you more for your beliefs.

 

I can get with your last two sentences, talking over it is just disrespectful. But let's not mix the two, he is wrong in the logic that being African American is no different than being Asian in this country. There is a huge difference. One race isn't being targeted by those supposed to protect and serve. One race didn't have a sitting President create a policy specifically to imprison them. One race doesn't have white men stalking and killing them randomly on streets or in churches and yet the rest of the country tries to convince themselves it was anything but racially motivated. He tried to validate a false equivalency and it deserved to be called out. 

[mcsluggo]

17 hours ago, Sacks 'n' Stuff said:

 

17 hours ago, zoony said:

 

The best ways to get back at those police assholes by studying hard and becoming a lawyer maybe.  

 

Naah.  Just sit down  keep it real

 

What are we teaching our kids?  Respect this great system and WIN, or disrespect it, whine **** and LOSE?  No need to answer

 

17 hours ago, Sacks 'n' Stuff said:

There's a lot more at play here than you are acknowledging.

 

there is ALWAYS truth on both sides of this eternal debate.... 

 

there is definitely institutional headwinds that continue to hold down the achievement of (some) minorities.   

there is definitely no better way for these groups to overcome these systemic disadvantages, and lift their whole group up, than individual hard work work and perseverance.

 

 

But what we need, REALLY need, (in a Utopian ideal world) is fewer white people pointing out "lazy minorities"  and fewer minorities fixating on institutional disadvantages, as a "why bother" card.   And when do white people slow down their racial insults...?  (one way to take wind out of these sails...slowly....  is when the targets of insults outperform)   And when do individuals slow down pointing to "institutional factors" as a get-out-of-having-to-apply-themselves-free card?  (one way is when the REALLY feel that everyone recognizes those inherent problems, and that everyone wants to eliminate them, together).

 

So.... if you are a honkey  (or an asian, or a jew... pointing to the previous discussion in this thread..) ... your job is to recognize the extra burdens placed on non-honkey/jew/asians and working to eliminate those impediments.   If you are a non-honkey/jew/asian, your job is to personally strive, and when you preach, preach personal responsibility within your own community.   

 

Question:  what happens when these things occur?   (other than the obvious self-reinforcing virtuous-circle of improvement?)  

Answer:  everyone get accused of being self loathing/race traitor/uncle toms.    (or in "more polite" circles, white guilt liberals or people that have lost touch with the essence of their own people).   Focus on getting your OWN houses in order people, and on the areas where you personally can do the most good (and the least harm).....and recognize that others' trying to do this is a GOOD thing, not an object for scorn or ridicule.        

4 hours ago, Gamebreaker said:

 

Respect this great system? Why is it great? And who is it great for? 

 

flawed as it is... the system IS ****ing great.  and it is great for everyone (even if not equally so).   but it requires constant work to keep it great, and we as a society have been doing a worse job lately at protecting the system and being diligent in improving it.

[MarkB452]

The comment about wanting to be a drug dealer is a little surprising, but I remember reading about it in Freakonomics....just look at the numbers and you wonder why anyone in their right mind would aspire to that.

 

http://www.luxuryrehabcenter.com/blog/freakonomics-drug-dealing-infographic/

 

 

[tshile]

They're not looking at infographics

 

they're look at the minimum wage earners in their neighborhood and comparing it to the young men/boys flashing cash and driving nice cars

 

(and ignoring they wind up in jail or dead)

 

[mcsluggo]

5 minutes ago, MarkB452 said:

The comment about wanting to be a drug dealer is a little surprising, but I remember reading about it in Freakonomics....just look at the numbers and you wonder why anyone in their right mind would aspire to that.

 

http://www.luxuryrehabcenter.com/blog/freakonomics-drug-dealing-infographic/

 

 

 

we do a ****ty job of teaching that actual reality.   instead we get all preachy... and give arguments that transparently false on their face.   (sayt no to drugs, or your head will explode and you will try to fly off the tops of buildings the first time you try them...)

 

and that leaves a wide-open door for misleading information from people who are already in the drug trade.... and since it is basically a pyramid-scheme (you can only make money if you are at the top of a pyramid have enough hapless schmucks UNDER you making no money for themselves, and taking all the risks for you), the incentive is totally there to mislead/woo poor hapless schmucks into the operation. 

[Riggo-toni]

15 minutes ago, MarkB452 said:

The comment about wanting to be a drug dealer is a little surprising, but I remember reading about it in Freakonomics....just look at the numbers and you wonder why anyone in their right mind would aspire to that.

It's eerily reminiscent of Italians growing up in NYC in the old days wanting to be wiseguys.

[Rskins91]

23 hours ago, zoony said:

 

Great message for our youth.  Suck in school and sit down for the pledge!  That will show the man that youre no chump!

 

Meanwhile, Asians and Jews absolutely crushing it in white America...  #WhiteysFault

So I feel uniquely qualified to respond to this as a teacher like Code who teaches in a school that's mostly African American or Latino. And I see both sides of the debate. Don't get it wrong; there are kids that I really would love to smack some sense into that fall into every negative racial stereotype and give ammunition to the racists and the bigots that exist. These people are the ones who are lazy bums, future welfare recipients, or may end up in prison. 

 

And then then there are the kids who suffer from this stereotyping, the kids who try and rise to "beat the system" as you say through being smart, tough, and learn the best they can... and end up being victimized by institutional racism. Case in point: the kid at Bowie State who was stabbed at UMD about to graduate and serve the country. He was a shining example of a young man who was going to help his country, cut down by a coward with bigotry in his heart. 

 

So what I'm trying to say is... there's some truth in what you say, but I disagree with the premise that simply "studying hard by going with the system" will yield the best result. Some of these kids have no chance due to systems that are working to undermine them. And the truth is, there is no easy answer to solve this problem facing us. 

[MarkB452]

17 hours ago, tshile said:

They're not looking at infographics

 

they're look at the minimum wage earners in their neighborhood and comparing it to the young men/boys flashing cash and driving nice cars

 

(and ignoring they wind up in jail or dead)

 

 

One of the Freakonomics books spends a chapter on drug dealers and answers the question why they live with their mothers.

Basically, most of them are making less than $8 hr, but of course, they look at the big dog earners and think that will be them.

A good summary of the material is here:

 

http://articles.latimes.com/2005/apr/24/opinion/oe-dubner24

 

J. T.'s single largest expense was the wage he paid himself: $8,500 a month, for an annual salary of about $100,000. There were roughly 100 leaders of J. T.'s stature within the Black Disciple network. These were the drug dealers who could indeed afford to live large, or -- in the case of the board of directors -- extremely large. Each of those roughly 20 directors stood to earn about $500,000 a year.

 

So the top 120 men on the Black Disciples' pyramid were paid very well. But the pyramid they sat atop was gigantic. Using J. T.'s franchise as a yardstick -- three officers and roughly 50 foot soldiers -- there were about 5,300 other men working for those 120 bosses. Then there were the 20,000 unpaid rank-and-file members, many of whom wanted nothing more than a chance to become a foot soldier. And how well did that dream job pay? About $3.30 an hour.

J. T.'s three officers didn't do much better: about $7 an hour. So the answer to the original question -- if drug dealers make so much money, why are they still living with their mothers? -- is that, except for the top cats, they don't make much money. They have no choice but to live with their mothers.

A crack gang works pretty much like the standard capitalist enterprise: You have to be near the top of the pyramid to make a big wage. But selling crack is a lot more dangerous than most menial labor. Anyone who was a member of J. T.'s gang for the four years covered in the notebooks stood a 1-in-4 chance of being killed. That's more than five times as deadly as being a timber cutter, which the Bureau of Labor Statistics calls the most dangerous job in the United States.

So if crack dealing is really the most dangerous job in America, and it pays less than minimum wage, why on Earth would anyone take such a job? Well, for the same reason a pretty Wisconsin farm girl moves to Hollywood. For the same reason that a high school quarterback wakes up at 5 a.m. to lift weights.

They all want to succeed in an extremely competitive field in which, if you reach the top, you are paid a fortune (to say nothing of the attendant glory and power). But in each of these glamour professions, the same problem exists: A lot of people are competing in what is essentially a tournament.

Earning big money in J. T.'s crack gang wasn't much more likely than the Wisconsin farm girl becoming a movie star or the high school quarterback playing in the NFL. But criminals, like everyone else, respond to incentives.

 

[Renegade7]

On 6/14/2017 at 9:24 AM, bearrock said:

At the end of the day, responsibility for parenting falls on the parents, not the government, not the school, and not the teachers.  Thanks for fighting the good fight Code.  Lord knows vast majority of teachers in this country are under-appreciated and under-supported.  For every knucklehead who doesn't appreciate your dedication, I'm sure there are many more who are extremely grateful, even if they don't always remember to show it.

 

 

I keep seeing this, and as son of a teacher and several teachers in my family, I got to tell you, we're past the point of waiting on parents to do the right thing.

 

In many cases, there's only one or no parents at all, we're talking grandparents or other relatives, foster kids, you name it. So many broken situations that make school an afterthought, especially in the inner cities.  Saying its the parents fault is essentially giving up on the situation.  I'd like to see school systems try to find ways to deal around this as early as possible while the kids still believe in themselves, because by middle school and high school, the kids have already given up on themselves and that's very hard to break through on, nearly impossible.

[Warhead36]

The problem we have in this country is that we're obsessed with every kid having to go to college. It's simply unrealistic. We all went to school with kids that we knew weren't college material. What we need to do is identify these kids early on(I'd say around freshman-sophomore year of HS)and funnel them into trades so they can be productive members of society. There is absolutely nothing wrong with being a plumber, electrician, mechanic etc.(a plumber friend of mine makes six figures and had like a 2.5 GPA in High School).

 

Instead everyone gets lumped in together and as a result they all get punished. The truly bright kids who are college material who do have a shot at becoming doctors or lawyers are held back because teachers are also forced into teaching kids that have no intention of doing anything in the classroom.

[Renegade7]

1 minute ago, Warhead36 said:

The problem we have in this country is that we're obsessed with every kid having to go to college. It's simply unrealistic. We all went to school with kids that we knew weren't college material. What we need to do is identify these kids early on(I'd say around freshman-sophomore year of HS)and funnel them into trades so they can be productive members of society. There is absolutely nothing wrong with being a plumber, electrician, mechanic etc.(a plumber friend of mine makes six figures and had like a 2.5 GPA in High School).

 

Instead everyone gets lumped in together and as a result they all get punished. The truly bright kids who are college material who do have a shot at becoming doctors or lawyers are held back because teachers are also forced into teaching kids that have no intention of doing anything in the classroom.

 

I totally agree with this, and lived it first hand.  Even have a cousin who I finally convinced his mom to just let him do his GED like I did and go to a trade school.  I was working fulltime in my field with just an associates.  I hated high school, which is why I didn't finish, but I wish I knew what my options were before finally got to that point instead after the fact.  Obama was trying to get trade programs like that at the high school level to be more common, which is absolutely what we should be doing.

[LadySkinsFan]

There needs to be more of these programs, geared to a person's interests and what they are good at. 

[elkabong82]

I've experienced a lot of the same code, in terms of students not caring. Discipline was better this year, save for lots of skipping because admin. refused to monitor the halls or have anyone do it. The silver lining was that the classroom behavior was better because the troublemakers would just skip. 

 

But it's been a real shock as a 4 year teacher to see so many kids just not caring about their education. I teach SPED, and those kids many try and struggle, but keep trying and it's commendable. I see many improve themselves thanks to the support and motivation we provide at the school. But then I see students, both SPED and not, who are only there because they'll get in trouble with the courts if they don't show up, or their parents will. I see their parents have completely given up on them. It's frankly disheartening. When I was in high school you either wanted to excel or you wanted to get enough done to make sure you got a C and passed. A startling amount of these kids seem unphased by failing (part of the blame goes to summer school IMO, where all a kid here has to do is work for two weeks on a computer program about the subject and they get a D instead, and even then some kids don't do it and just accept the F and re-taking it next year!). It sucks because TN now offers free community college, and the entrance standards are low (2.5 GPA) and there are plenty of capable students who won't even work toward that end.

 

Some of it is racial, there's no denying that. But the biggest commonality is economics and home life. The lack of effort/caring I see in many students of all races, though in terms of percentage it is far higher with blacks and hispanics unfortunately. Now our county is starting to adopt the same stupid policy that CA, I think, started where black students are to receive less discipline for bad behaviors. All part of some misguided BS started when some study showed black studnets were receiving harsher punishments and the implication is that racial bias caused it, even though this was done nationally and school teachers tend to be much more liberal. Personally I don't think the study looked at the actual incidents, but instead just saw what label they were listed as, and those labels are very generic (disruption, stealing, profanity, etc.) which ignores the specifics of the incident. So two events under the same category can look like they got two very different punishments, but if you look at the specifics you see why. Plus I'll add that of all races, black students, at least in my experience and those of colleagues with whom I've discussed the discipline changes, seem to handle discipline interventions the worst, and how a student responds to such can make consequences lighter or worse. Can't wait for the resentment other students will have with this one!

 

They really need to have a better investment in vocational stuff and start prepping students for trade school. Public education is far too invested in the college track and it cuts off other good options out there. IMO the courses themselves need to be re-thought. Kids can't see that far ahead in the future, they haven't had the experience yet. Some understand better eductaion is a huge benefit but many obviously don't. Their need to be better programs, a greater variety of options and career paths. It won't solve the neer-do-well problem, but it could reduce it and get some of these students to realize their potential.

[Warhead36]

Yep well said elka. Problem is the parents and nobody wants to concede that their kids aren't good enough. I had the son of a family friend graduate HS a couple years ago and his mom said if he ended up going to community college(Nova)she wouldn't throw him a graduation party. Its just ridiculous. I'm sorry but not everyone's son or daughter is going to be a CEO. The kid now is is a salesman for some insurance company and is actually doing pretty well.

 

We just need to get it through people's heads that there is absolutely nothing wrong with working a blue collar trade job. Many of them actually make fantastic money.

[Voice_of_Reason]

On 6/14/2017 at 7:23 PM, tshile said:

I was a knucklehead. 

Was?  

 

On 6/14/2017 at 7:23 PM, tshile said:

I turned out fine ...

You did?

 

1 hour ago, Warhead36 said:

The problem we have in this country is that we're obsessed with every kid having to go to college. It's simply unrealistic. We all went to school with kids that we knew weren't college material. What we need to do is identify these kids early on(I'd say around freshman-sophomore year of HS)and funnel them into trades so they can be productive members of society. There is absolutely nothing wrong with being a plumber, electrician, mechanic etc.(a plumber friend of mine makes six figures and had like a 2.5 GPA in High School).

 

Instead everyone gets lumped in together and as a result they all get punished. The truly bright kids who are college material who do have a shot at becoming doctors or lawyers are held back because teachers are also forced into teaching kids that have no intention of doing anything in the classroom.

This is very true. A couple random thoughts:

 

1. The overall purpose of education is to gain training to make a living.  That does not always include college.  Good jobs, however, require training.  Either through college or through some other means, if you want a good job, you have to have more skill at whatever it is that you do.

 

2. There's no reason to force kids who would prefer to be in the trades (Carpenter, plumber, mechanic, etc) into the same path as somebody who wants to be, for example, an accountant. We don't do the opposite. How weird would it be if we forced everybody to learn the basics of carpentry, mechanics and plumbing rather than history, literature and science? It makes just no sense why kids (with the help of their parents) can't select what they like to do best.  As long as they know what they are choosing and why, every option should be available, and no one option is "right."

 

3.  I know you didn't mean it this way, but I'll just point out that you can be "truly bright" and also be a mechanic, electrician or plumber.  Hell, a lot of successful business owners in this country started as somebody in the trades, and then started their own little business, figured out how to run it well, and did extremely well at it.  I know a business owner of a construction company that never completed HS, clearly had no schooling in finance, accounting, business strategy, operations, etc.  He runs/owns a $50 million dollar business.  That isn't bad, and is a lot better than 99% of folks who went to college and studied finance, accounting, business operations, strategy, etc.  

 

[Warhead36]

Yes of course, intelligence can mean different things. I work in architecture and can design buildings but don't ask me to actually try and build anything with my hands.

 

What would be a good starting point for teaching trades in school? I would say first year of HS. You pretty much know by 9th grade who is going where in life. Maybe give an option to kids to take carpentry or plumbing instead of history or english(personally I think every kid should take math at least for a year or two but maybe allow kids to opt out of math after two years or something).

 

The kids who want to go to college will still take the more traditional academic classes, since that's what colleges would prefer, and the kids who have no interest in academics but might be allured by the possibility of learning a trade skill as early as your teens would have a viable option. Overall education would be much better.

[Gamebreaker]

I agree a lot with the last few posts in regards to getting these kids motivated in doing trades and not college-or-bust. 

 

I also agree with drug trade being an even more dangerous pyramid scheme. I've conveyed this to numerous youth in DC that I've worked with through my Church Outreach and Baltimore youth through an organization ran by my college. Surprisingly, so many people have heard about pyramid schemes being scams that many understood what I meant. But that also brings me back to a program I heard about in Chicago which was helping people in crime ridden areas get jobs, and they were jumping at the opportunity. The hurdles that come into play are jobs just not being available for people with a record, or the fact that in Chicago public transportation won't take you from a crime-ridden area to where the jobs are located. Some of these things can't be helped, but others can be corrected and simply haven't. 

 

EDIT: I've heard often recently about very niche industries needing workers badly, but having a difficult time finding skill workers to fill the positions. This is a problem that the urban community faces, but also the rural and rust belt where the workforce available is highly trained in very specific areas, but not much else. 

[elkabong82]

Good points warhead and VOR. I'll take it a step further and say that the path to high school graduation needs to be radically altered. Yes there should be a baseline minimum education standards for the core subjects, but their should be more leeway for a student to focus on a specific subject. Further, courses need to be adjusted too. If you're on a college track then I get having Algebra II, but in general students would be much better served taking a math class that has applications in a field of interest, and I'm saying this as a eprson who has taught math and actually enjoys the subject. Algebra has a lot of problem solving and setting up equations which is more sueful than most realize. Geometry is great for developing spatial reasoning. Keep those (though a keen observer cans see those classes were originally adopted to help build the construction work force as the country expanded). But beyond that, let a kid take stats if they want, have a math course geared specifically for trade school, focus more on practical application. Offer courses on office management, home ownership, research methodology, computer applications, etc. Some of it requires more money, but some of it would simply be shifted from courses no longer needed or demands for such reduced due to students taking different courses instead. 

[Renegade7]

9 minutes ago, Gamebreaker said:

EDIT: I've heard often recently about very niche industries needing workers badly, but having a difficult time finding skill workers to fill the positions. This is a problem that the urban community faces, but also the rural and rust belt where the workforce available is highly trained in very specific areas, but not much else. 

2

 

Hi-Tech manufacturing with robots doing most of the work in this country is a perfect example of this.  Was reading an article about the demand is so high yet qualified so low, that they are totally hiring people that specialize in something else, hoping they can swim rather then sink.  ITT Tech used to have a program for this in Indianapolis, but they're gone now, I have no idea who offers programs like that on the trade school or technical school level now.

[tshile]

1 hour ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Was?  

 

You did?

 

i'm a productive member of society and pay my bills/taxes

it's a low bar, i know

[Gamebreaker]

2 hours ago, Renegade7 said:

 

Hi-Tech manufacturing with robots doing most of the work in this country is a perfect example of this.  Was reading an article about the demand is so high yet qualified so low, that they are totally hiring people that specialize in something else, hoping they can swim rather then sink.  ITT Tech used to have a program for this in Indianapolis, but they're gone now, I have no idea who offers programs like that on the trade school or technical school level now.

 

I have a good friend I grew up with. He only has a high school diploma, and I'll say he was probably a 2.3 GPA student all through HS. He went to ITT and also has a A+ certification. He is now working for a company that repairs contact lense machines. He is making significantly more than me in salary, and he lives in an area (Atlanta) where the cost of living is much lower. When he first moved down there, it was due to his wife getting a promotion for Hyatt hotels as a manager, with her degree in hospitality, and they were barely making ends meet. He was in school and unemployed. Now she doesn't need to work at all. 

 

The more people who realize college isn't the only way to reach your life goals the less people we'll have stressed out over their Sallie Mae debt. The more people who realize coal jobs aren't coming back and invest in their future by gaining the skills needed to do these jobs that pay extremely well, the less rationalizing they'll have to make during elections. 

[Voice_of_Reason]

3 hours ago, tshile said:

i'm a productive member of society and pay my bills/taxes

it's a low bar, i know

 

I think at this point the bar fir all of us is lying on the floor.