The White Terrorism Thread

[Larry]

6 hours ago, Corcaigh said:

 

The dangerous act was not directed to 'a civilian population', and by that my understanding is a particular group being targeted, it was to the bye-standers who intervened.

 

Verbally abusing and intimidating the Muslim women resulted in him being charged with a crime (second-degree intimidation), but it is not an act of terrorism according to the law. If he'd assaulted the women it may have met the definition.

 

Ah.  So your reasoning that he's not a terrorist is that he did not physically assault anyone in the "target group", so to speak.  

 

I wouldn't have thought of that argument.  But I can see it.  I could see how, under the letter of the law, you might be right.  

 

(Although I'll point out:  As I understand the law, "assault" does not require any physical contact, to be assault.  I think the definition is any action which would cause a reasonable person to feel threatened.  Battery requires physical contact.)  

[Gamebreaker]

3 hours ago, Larry said:

 

Ah.  So your reasoning that he's not a terrorist is that he did not physically assault anyone in the "target group", so to speak.  

 

I wouldn't have thought of that argument.  But I can see it.  I could see how, under the letter of the law, you might be right.  

 

(Although I'll point out:  As I understand the law, "assault" does not require any physical contact, to be assault.  I think the definition is any action which would cause a reasonable person to feel threatened.  Battery requires physical contact.)  

 

Exactly. And I'm sure no one would reason that the two Muslim women who enraged that idiot so much did not feel threatened. 

[grego]

"It’s called “proof by example,” and it happens all the time. We take one event and point to it as evidence of a trend or, even worse, a universal fact—a dog attacked my child, therefore all dogs are vicious and should be put down. Despite its popularity, particularly in political debate, proof by example is a logical fallacy. But logic is officially an endangered species in today’s hyperpartisan political environment."

 

 

http://thefederalist.com/2015/07/07/sorry-everyone-america-isnt-that-racist/

[Gamebreaker]

55 minutes ago, grego said:

"It’s called “proof by example,” and it happens all the time. We take one event and point to it as evidence of a trend or, even worse, a universal fact—a dog attacked my child, therefore all dogs are vicious and should be put down. Despite its popularity, particularly in political debate, proof by example is a logical fallacy. But logic is officially an endangered species in today’s hyperpartisan political environment."

 

 

http://thefederalist.com/2015/07/07/sorry-everyone-america-isnt-that-racist/

 

I'd like to know where Greg Jones got his statistics. They seem cherry picked to me. It's also funny how he talks about America speaking to it's echo chambers, when he's doing the same exact thing. Although the article doesn't seem new, it isn't so old that he can pretend police brutality isn't a serious problem when the DoJ reports on Chicago and Baltimore contradict his narrative. 

 

In the case of this thread, and this topic, we have a lot more than one example to draw off from. 

[Spearfeather]

 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2017/04/18/fresno-triple-killing/100616454/

Quote

 

Race is what drove a homeless African-American man in Fresno to shoot and kill three white men on Tuesday - bringing his homicide total to four since last week, the city's police chief said during a news conference.

 

"We don't believe it's a terrorist act," Police Chief Jerry Dyer told reporters about the Tuesday rampage led by suspect Kori Ali Muhammad. "We believe it's a hate crime.

 

Dyer said the incident ended with Muhammad, 39, shouting "Allahu Akbar" - Arabic for "God is great" - as police took him down to the ground.

 

Muhammad sought to kill as many white people as possible, Dyer said. The shootings were random, he added. "This is solely based on race," he said.

 

The Fresno police chief also told reporters that the suspect's Facebook page included posts that expressed hate for white people.

 

 http://www.newsweek.com/kori-ali-muhammad-fresno-shootiung-585806

Quote

 

He also posted on his Facebook page about not liking “white people" and showcased "anti-government sentiments," Fresno Police Chief Jerry Dyer said. 

 

 

Quote

The man suspected of killing three white men in a racially motivated shooting spree in Fresno said he joined a gang in Sacramento when he was 9 and got involved with the black liberation movement at 14.

 

http://www.cbsnews.com/videos/did-racial-hatred-lead-gunman-to-kill-3-men-in-california

 

 

Crazy ?

Racist ?

Terrorist ?

 

All of the above ?

Edited May 28, 2017 by Spearfeather

[Corcaigh]

8 hours ago, Larry said:

 

(Although I'll point out:  As I understand the law, "assault" does not require any physical contact, to be assault.  I think the definition is any action which would cause a reasonable person to feel threatened.  Battery requires physical contact.)  

 

The law says a terrorist act must be "dangerous to human life". He is being charged for his threatening behavior toward the two women, but it's not terrorism.

Edited May 28, 2017 by Corcaigh

[Jumbo]

The "racism" tangent in here could become the dominant theme, so let's keep an eye on that as racism is already playing large in a couple other threads (not that it's a big problem in the usa--har de har har).

 

I'll add briefly to that tangent: there is such a "ton" of racism in the country, and there are significant and deeply formed aspects of our culture built on the usury and oppression of "others", and racist (even genocidal at times) policies in our government and institutions, and as part of a way of life for many, including the foundation of our economic system (treatment of Asians building the railroads is just one of many such pieces).

 

that we're better now as a society, or other places are worse, or that most nations/cultures/people over history have done it is part of the discussion, but those are not "counterpoints" to the reality that racism and its derivatives is still a BIG not small problem in this country

 

pushing back on false claims of racism is certainly valid.

 

and where one devotes their energy (and doesn't) in the conversations is worth noting.

 

there are many words i could use to describe positions suggesting racism isn't still a pervasive and serious issue in the usa. none of them are positive. 

 

 

i now leave the racism tangent in this thread to take it to another, more suitable .

 

[grego]

2 hours ago, Gamebreaker said:

 

I'd like to know where Greg Jones got his statistics. They seem cherry picked to me. It's also funny how he talks about America speaking to it's echo chambers, when he's doing the same exact thing. Although the article doesn't seem new, it isn't so old that he can pretend police brutality isn't a serious problem when the DoJ reports on Chicago and Baltimore contradict his narrative. 

 

In the case of this thread, and this topic, we have a lot more than one example to draw off from. 

 

I was attempting to make a point about a couple of questionable posts that appear to make wholesale judgments of an entire race (which is a terrible way to argue, and generally discouraged- but not always) based on a given anecdote. 

[visionary]

 

[visionary]

 

[grego]

1 hour ago, Jumbo said:

 

 

that we're better now as a society, or other places are worse, or that most nations/cultures/people over history have done it is part of the discussion, but those are not "counterpoints" to the reality that racism and its derivatives is still a BIG not small problem in this country

 

 

For me, lll bring up the sins of other countries when the claim seems to be wrapped in "America is awful" kind of thinking while lacking perspective or context. 

 

If America is awful, country x y and z are 10 times worse for reasons a b and c. 

 

Its myopic and self hating. (I point this out as an immigrant for context). I rarely if ever see an argument lamenting the horrors of being forced to grow up in America (hyperbole alert ) that acknowledges this. 

Edited May 28, 2017 by grego

[Gamebreaker]

53 minutes ago, grego said:

 

For me, lll bring up the sins of other countries when the claim seems to be wrapped in "America is awful" kind of thinking while lacking perspective or context. 

 

If America is awful, country x y and z are 10 times worse for reasons a b and c. 

 

Its myopic and self hating. (I point this out as an immigrant for context). I rarely if ever see an argument lamenting the horrors of being forced to grow up in America (hyperbole alert ) that acknowledges this. 

 

Telling someone it's worse in a place they've never been, doesn't make them feel any better about the oppression they're currently experiencing. Whatever your goal is with such a statement, it won't endear the recipient to your argument. 

 

And there are neighborhoods, urban and rural, where children have grown up in poverty so depressing they have little hope for their children or confidence in themselves. Many of these situations have been created by design. That isn't hyperbole, and it shouldn't be diminished because it isn't unique to the U.S. 

[grego]

39 minutes ago, Gamebreaker said:

 

Telling someone it's worse in a place they've never been, doesn't make them feel any better about the oppression they're currently experiencing. Whatever your goal is with such a statement, it won't endear the recipient to your argument. 

 

And there are neighborhoods, urban and rural, where children have grown up in poverty so depressing they have little hope for their children or confidence in themselves. Many of these situations have been created by design. That isn't hyperbole, and it shouldn't be diminished because it isn't unique to the U.S. 

 

I definitely wouldn't argue that I can control how people feel. But people's feelings don't change the reality of life in America compared to most of the world. 

 

My dad didn't have a steak til he was nearly old enough to drink a beer legally. That's not great. It's unfortunate, but compared to places where people are literally starving, he was doing far better. 

 

People want to come here. There is a reason for that. 

[Gamebreaker]

8 minutes ago, grego said:

People want to come here. There is a reason for that. 

 

And none of them want to live in the kind of areas I mentioned previously, or be attacked.  They come here to make a better life for themselves, not to be shot down because a domestic terrorist thought they looked Iranian. 

 

Furthermore, you're essentially saying to people who've been marginalized in this country to suck it up, at least you don't live in Syria. Which frankly, doesn't justify the experiences they've had to deal with and remains to be utter bull****. Sorry, it simply is. 

Edited May 28, 2017 by Gamebreaker

[grego]

15 minutes ago, Gamebreaker said:

 

And none of them want to live in the kind of areas I mentioned previously, or be attacked.  They come here to make a better life for themselves, not to be shot down because a domestic terrorist thought they looked Iranian. 

 

Furthermore, you're essentially saying to people who've been marginalized in this country to suck it up, at least you don't live in Syria. Which frankly, doesn't justify the experiences they've had to deal with and remains to be utter bull****. Sorry, it simply is. 

 

Nothing about what I am saying means America is perfect or that it can't improve, by any stretch. 

 

The domestic terrorist example is an example of what I posted earlier. It sucks, but it hardly means brown people are running serpentine to their mailboxes to avoid potential racist terrorists. 

[Gamebreaker]

10 minutes ago, grego said:

 

Nothing about what I am saying means America is perfect or that it can't improve, by any stretch. 

 

The domestic terrorist example is an example of what I posted earlier. It sucks, but it hardly means brown people are running serpentine to their mailboxes to avoid potential racist terrorists. 

 

And no one is saying that, so why is it a part of your argument here? 

[grego]

9 minutes ago, Gamebreaker said:

 

And no one is saying that, so why is it a part of your argument here? 

 

Why did you say this? 

 

"They come here to make a better life for themselves, not to be shot down because a domestic terrorist thought they looked Iranian."

[Larry]

14 minutes ago, grego said:

 

Why did you say this? 

 

"They come here to make a better life for themselves, not to be shot down because a domestic terrorist thought they looked Iranian."

 

Because it's happened?  Multiple times?  

[grego]

15 minutes ago, Larry said:

 

Because it's happened?  Multiple times?  

 

I understand that incidents of white on brown crime to be quite low in many countries. 

 

But you choose to live here. 

[grego]

 

 

 

"The statistics show that the 500 killings of white people attributed to blacks last year were the most since black perpetrators were determined to be responsible for the homicides of 504 white people nationwide in 2008. Last year's total was up 12 percent from the 446 recorded in 2014 and 22 percent from the 409 seen in 2013, a year that saw the lowest total this century and one that capped seven years of general declines in black-on-white homicides. Prior to that, 2006 saw the most black-on-white killings since 2001, with 573. "

 

^Not a problem 

 

" The 229 black lives taken by white killers last year, however, marked an even larger leap from 2014, jumping more than 22 percent from the 187 black victims killed by whites that year, which was the second-lowest total since 2001. The tally was last exceeded in 2008, when 230 blacks were slain by whites. The highest total in the last 15 years came in 2007, when 245 black people were killed by whites."

 

^Problem. 

 

https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2016-09-29/race-and-homicide-in-america-by-the-numbers

[Gamebreaker]

2 hours ago, grego said:

 

Why did you say this? 

 

"They come here to make a better life for themselves, not to be shot down because a domestic terrorist thought they looked Iranian."

 

My example was something that has actually happened. Yours is something you've imagined. You don't see the difference? 

2 hours ago, grego said:

 

I understand that incidents of white on brown crime to be quite low in many countries. 

 

But you choose to live here. 

 

Again, the point? 

 

Yes, people choose to live here. It really seems like you're justifying crime against minorities in America, simply because there are similar incidents around the world. That doesn't make any of the incidents that have been reported in this thread any better, or any less heinous. 

[Spearfeather]

3 hours ago, Gamebreaker said:

 

. That doesn't make any of the incidents that have been reported in this thread any better, or any less heinous. 

 

He's not saying it does.

[grego]

18 minutes ago, Gamebreaker said:

 

My example was something that has actually happened. Yours is something you've imagined. You don't see the difference? 

 

Again, the point? 

 

Yes, people choose to live here. It really seems like you're justifying  crime against minorities in America, simply because there are similar incidents around the world. That doesn't make any of the incidents that have been reported in this thread any better, or any less heinous. 

 

I dont think we disagree. 

 

Im not (not attempting to, anyway) justifying any crime. I'm putting it in context. (look at the article again, BTW, as far as the bolded part) 

 

Crime happens here - black on white, white on black, all of it. It's all bad. 

 

When it comes to America, gun violence is a problem compared to other countries, no question. I wouldn't disagree with that. 

Edited May 28, 2017 by grego

[TheGreatBuzz]

http://www.cnn.com/2017/05/28/us/mississippi-mass-shooting/index.html

[Larry]

I love it when people make posts which consist entirely of a URL, with no point at all to indicate why it's there. 

 

Even better when when its a link to something that has nothing to do with the thread. 

 

The link above is to a CNN story about a guy whose wife left him, and took the kids, who went and killed his wife, his kids, and the relatives who his wife was staying with. 

 

Not terrorism. Not even what I think of as a mass shooting. (To me, that term implies more random targeting).