Moose & Squirrel v Boris & Natasha: what's the deal with the rooskies and trumpland?

[visionary]

46 minutes ago, Kilmer17 said:

But stop dancing around and make a claim and then prove it.  

So far the only dancing around is being done by Trump and his asssociates when it comes to their Russia ties.  Also his defenders in their pathetic attempts to deflect.   But people of all political stripes will keep looking until we can get to the bottom of this and see just how much influence Russia has and has had on him and his cronies and if there was collusion or if Russia is blackmailing them.  Right now there's no need to be anything but patient.

Edited March 5, 2017 by visionary

[Jumbo]

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/factcheck/fact-check-what-did-trumps-tweets-about-obamas-wiretaps-mean/ar-AAnNbYK?li=BBnb7Kz

 

Fact check: what did Trump's tweets about Obama's 'wiretaps' mean?

 

 

On Saturday morning, without presenting evidence, Donald Trump accused former president Barack Obama of illegal wiretapping. Using Twitter, the president also mounted a defense of his attorney general, Jeff Sessions, and his meetings with the Russian ambassador. 

Related: Trump's evidence-free wiretap claim follows rightwing Obama 'coup' stories

The six tweets appeared to originate with rumors circulating in rightwing media, especially talk radio and Breitbart News – recently run by Steve Bannon, now the president’s chief strategist – about a “silent coup” against Trump, by members of the Obama administration.

 

Tweet #1

 

Quote

 

Donald J. Trump ✔@realDonaldTrump

The first meeting Jeff Sessions had with the Russian Amb was set up by the Obama Administration under education program for 100 Ambs......

3:26 AM - 4 Mar 2017

 

 

 

Sessions met Russian ambassador Sergey Kislyak in July 2016, at an event on the sidelines of the Republican National Convention in Cleveland. The event was co-hosted by the Heritage Foundation, a conservative think tank, and Global Cleveland, in coordination with the RNC and the Department of State.

 

The state department has invited ambassadors to both party conventions for decades, as an educational program. Several dozen ambassadors from around the world attended the Republican convention this year, according to the Cleveland Plain Dealer.

 

According to a justice department official speaking anonymously to the Washington Post when it first reported the story, the meeting was casual: Kislyak and other ambassadors approached Sessions after he finished giving a speech. Sessions then spoke with Kislyak alone, the official said, citing a former staffer for the senator. To say the meeting was “set up by the Obama administration” is false.

 

Nor was the second meeting, held on 8 September in Sessions’ office, arranged by the state department. Justice department officials have said Sessions met Kislyak given the senator’s role on the armed services committee, but 20 of 26 members of that panel have said they did not meet with the ambassador in 2016.

 

Where did the claim come from? On Friday, Breitbart News published an article claiming that the state department “sponsored” the July meeting.

 

Tweet #2

 

Quote

 

Donald J. Trump ✔@realDonaldTrump

Terrible! Just found out that Obama had my "wires tapped" in Trump Tower just before the victory. Nothing found. This is McCarthyism!

3:35 AM - 4 Mar 2017

 

 

 

Presidents cannot legally order a wire tap operation unilaterally: federal agents and attorneys would have had to convince a federal judge either of probable cause of a serious crime or that the target of the tap was the agent of a foreign power.

 

However, the former British MP Louise Mensch reported in November that the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (Fisa) court had granted the FBI a surveillance warrant of “US persons” to investigate possible contacts between Russian banks and Trump’s associates. In January, the BBC reported that the Fisa court had issued its warrant in October.

 

Also in January, the Guardian reported that the Fisa court had turned down an initial request for a warrant, and that the judge had asked investigators to narrow the terms of their search.

 

On Saturday, Obama denied through a spokesman that he or the White House had any role ordering a wire tap.

 

“A cardinal rule of the Obama administration was that no White House official ever interfered with an independent investigation led by the Department of Justice,” said spokesman Kevin Lewis. “As part of that practice neither President Obama nor any White House official ever ordered surveillance on any US citizen. Any suggestion otherwise is simply false.”

 

The spokesperson did not deny that intelligence officials had requested or employed surveillance of Trump associates.

 

Though leaks from the intelligence community have shown that Trump associates, including former campaign chief Paul Manafort, former adviser Carter Page and former national security adviser Michael Flynn, are included in an investigation into Kremlin activities, it remains unclear what direct evidence of wrongdoing, if any, the agencies have gathered.

 

It is not unusual for high-level campaign officials to meet ambassadors, but those meetings are typically with representatives of US allies, like Britain and France, and not with those of rivals such as Russia. So far, denials have proven more damning to Trump officials than the content of their conversations: Flynn was caught having misled the vice-president about his contacts with Kislyak and Sessions testified under oath that he “did not have communications with the Russians” during the campaign.

 

 

Tweet #4

 

Quote

 

Donald J. Trump ✔@realDonaldTrump

Is it legal for a sitting President to be "wire tapping" a race for president prior to an election? Turned down by court earlier. A NEW LOW!

3:49 AM - 4 Mar 2017

 

 

It would not be legal for a sitting president to unilaterally order surveillance; a federal court would have to approve the surveillance. Trump seems to acknowledge this in an oblique way, with an allusion to the report that the Fisa court at first turned down an initial request for a warrant.

 

Though Trump claimed he “just found out” about reported surveillance, he is privy to intelligence briefings in which officials would have informed him about such operations. Both Obama and Trump received these briefings during the transition, for instance, reportedly, about an unsubstantiated dossier regarding links between Trump’s campaign and Russian officials.

 

 

Tweet #5

 

Quote

 

Donald J. Trump ✔@realDonaldTrump

I'd bet a good lawyer could make a great case out of the fact that President Obama was tapping my phones in October, just prior to Election!

3:52 AM - 4 Mar 2017

 

 

Trump presents baseless rumor as fact here, saying Obama “was tapping my phones in October” without providing any evidence of the former president’s agency in the investigation or of the surveillance itself. The Obama administration did not formally accuse Russia of interfering in the election until early October 2016.

 

 

Tweet #6

 

Quote

Donald J. Trump ✔@realDonaldTrump

How low has President Obama gone to tapp my phones during the very sacred election process. This is Nixon/Watergate. Bad (or sick) guy!

4:02 AM - 4 Mar 2017

 

 

 

Again, Trump presents a claim without evidence, this time as condemnation. As he earlier compared the overall Russia investigation to “McCarthyism” – the 1950s anti-communist crusade by Senator Joe McCarthy, who often resorted to baseless claims – Trump now invokes the Watergate scandal, in which President Richard Nixon’s White House spied on his political opponents.

 

Unlike that scandal, however, which involved illegal break-ins, intimidation and surveillance by people with links to the White House, the current investigations are being handled by federal courts and intelligence agencies that fall under the authority of the attorney general. On Thursday, Sessions recused himself.

 

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

54 minutes ago, Kilmer17 said:

But stop dancing around and make a claim and then prove it.  

Claim: The GOP, their voters, the man they made president, and all of the other politicians who rolled over for him are a national disgrace.

Proof: Look around.

[SkinsHokieFan]

 

[twa]

21 minutes ago, Sacks 'n' Stuff said:

Claim: The GOP, their voters, the man they made president, and all of the other politicians who rolled over for him are a national disgrace.

Proof: Look around.

 

[Kilmer17]

45 minutes ago, Sacks 'n' Stuff said:

Claim: The GOP, their voters, the man they made president, and all of the other politicians who rolled over for him are a national disgrace.

Proof: Look around.

This is exactly what I see too.  

 

Left wing hysteria and **** fits over the fact that their chosen one didn't win coupled with a decade of getting their collective asses handed to them in elections. 

 

I loathe the left wing and their supporters as much as you hate the right.  Cheers

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

40 minutes ago, Kilmer17 said:

This is exactly what I see too.  

 

Left wing hysteria and **** fits over the fact that their chosen one didn't win coupled with a decade of getting their collective asses handed to them in elections. 

 

I loathe the left wing and their supporters as much as you hate the right.  Cheers

You don't think that the GOP is worse for the country right now? Come on man. Put aside what they are "supposed" to stand for. In actual practice, the right is a disaster. No two ways about it.

[skinny21]

So, aside from the Russian "fertilizer king" and his connections to Trump and Ross, now we're getting steel for Keystone from Russia.  The Russian steel magnate who happens to be married to Ivanna's 'best friend'.  

 

Heard a great podcast discussing the change in corruption laws - what the framers originally intended and how it changed.  Framers were obviously adamant in believing corruption was anathema to a strong democracy.  Also discussed the very obvious violations of the emoluments clause.  

 

Jeffrey Lorde on Bill Maher - all of the defense's offered (from climate change, to Russian connections to Republican spending) were so weak and trite.  It's eerily similar to my 10 year old's attempts to argue with me.  

[Jumbo]

 

 

53 minutes ago, Kilmer17 said:

This is exactly what I see too.  

 

Left wing hysteria and **** fits over the fact that their chosen one didn't win coupled with a decade of getting their collective asses handed to them in elections. 

 

I loathe the left wing and their supporters as much as you hate the right.  Cheers

 

Servers Benghazi Foundation

 

Steaming pile of hypocrisy? Inquiring minds want to know!

 

But you were honest there, like you were when you showed some personal insight recently and apologized for yourself. There's a few others here left and right who might benefit from having such moments, and even more if they can hang on to the awareness and manage it. Maybe even modify it in intelligent manner.

 

You have company here and everywhere, in the broad-brush hate between right and left. I have to fight it myself, and against both sides at times. 

 

But why u mad, bro?

 

So the lefties are needlessly upset and making all these exaggerated silly noises about over the top stuff. Your side is cooking with gas! You got it all, compadre!

 

The party of ****-grabber, serial-liar, reality tv star, conman-realtor, conspiracy-nut in chief, is large and in charge and breitbart is becoming all it can be!

 

Be happy and just ignore the loathsome lefties---but maybe not sacks---he may be talking all democrat warrior these days but he's still funny and often on point and I know he even likes you. I guess that does call his judgment into question. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[visionary]

 

[TradeTheBeal!]

Question for the tailgate...

 

What do we think the chances are that Putin has eyes and ears in the Trump Tower?  95%, or am I hitting that a little low?

Edited March 5, 2017 by TryTheBeal!

[twa]

1 minute ago, TryTheBeal! said:

Question for the tailgate...

 

What do think the chances are that Putin has eyes and ears in the Trump Tower?  95%, or am I hitting that a little low?

 

about the same as in the Obama WH.....this ain't no new game, though some seem to think so.

[TradeTheBeal!]

4 minutes ago, twa said:

 

about the same as in the Obama WH.....this ain't no new game, though some seem to think so.

 

Answer the question, doofus.

[visionary]

9 minutes ago, TryTheBeal! said:

Question for the tailgate...

 

What do think the chances are that Putin has eyes and ears in the Trump Tower?  95%, or am I hitting that a little low?

Well I've seen some people say that Manafort is staying in Trump Tower.  Not sure if it's ever been confirmed though.  That would significantly increase chances I'd guess.

[twa]

8 minutes ago, TryTheBeal! said:

 

Answer the question, doofus.

 

Thought I did...95% seems about average.

[Jumbo]

Clapper was solid on MTP--figures he's going to have to testify. Clearly repeated that when they presented  their IC report the agreed-to position was that we had proof of russian hacks intended to influence the election, and that they did (whether from the get-go or later on) intend to do so in favor of don (obviously de rigueur to be hotly contested by many on the right) but that at that time at least there was no hard evidence of collusion between any senior trump campaign official and suspected agents/hackers.

 

To me, given that was my  same understanding back then, it has always made all this "forgetfulness" and stonewalling, smoke screening, obfuscating, or plain lying among so many trump people even more unnecessary/goofy (or guilty looking). And that stuff still continues with a hell of a lot of serious energy from the admin.  The ginormous hypocrisy on the part of many "investigate all things clinton ad absurdum" right siders who are already wanting this all shut down as "no there there" aside, I think we're going to be legitimately looking into this for months even though there is no smoking gun yet.

[visionary]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[visionary]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If nothing else the Russia issue really seems to have made an impact on Trump and his people in terms of distraction and disorder and may keep him from doing anything too obviously publicly pro-Russian as long as the heat is on him.

 

(It's a shame it isn't as easy to defeat or hold off some of his other policies that are doing or going to do so much harm. )

Edited March 5, 2017 by visionary

[FanboyOf91]

2 hours ago, TryTheBeal! said:

Question for the tailgate...

 

What do we think the chances are that Putin has eyes and ears in the Trump Tower?  95%, or am I hitting that a little low?

I've joked since last summer that Trump keeps a palantir (small p) in Trump Tower and Mar-a-Lago like Denethor with which he wrestles with the Dark One when he goes there for the weekend.

 

Seriously, Putin probably has one of his intelligence officers call one of Trump's people every day and gets the morning 411.

[BRAVEONAWARPATH]

 

[FanboyOf91]

1 hour ago, Jumbo said:

Clapper was solid on MTP--figures he's going to have to testify. Clearly repeated that when they presented  their IC report the agreed-to position was that we had proof of russian hacks intended to influence the election, and that they did (whether from the get-go or later on) intend to do so in favor of don (obviously de rigueur to be hotly contested by many on the right) but that at that time at least there was no hard evidence of collusion between any senior trump campaign official and suspected agents/hackers.

 

To me, given that was my  same understanding back then, it has always made all this "forgetfulness" and stonewalling, smoke screening, obfuscating, or plain lying among so many trump people even more unnecessary/goofy (or guilty looking). And that stuff still continues with a hell of a lot of serious energy from the admin.  The ginormous hypocrisy on the part of many "investigate all things clinton ad absurdum" right siders who are already wanting this all shut down as "no there there" aside, I think we're going to be legitimately looking into this for months even though there is no smoking gun yet.

A nuance to consider:

 

 

[Kilmer17]

I think it's incredibly naive for people to think that Russia never influenced our politics before the last election.  

[visionary]

 

 

 

 

 

[TradeTheBeal!]

4 minutes ago, Kilmer17 said:

I think it's incredibly naive for people to think that Russia never influenced our politics before the last election.  

 

Russia influenced the last election?

[Jumbo]

shhhh...going off

9 minutes ago, Kilmer17 said:

I think it's incredibly naive for people to think that Russia never influenced our politics before the last election.  

 

 

 

 

 

me too. all the people in all the circles  i talk to and i can't think of any of them who have said they think that no matter what their politics.

 

but i'm sure you had a highly relevant point, you being you

 

 

i'll leave aside so many things like scope and nature of interference and a few other relevant matters in this situation