The (only!) official ES all things Kirk Cousins should we shouldn't we off-season thread.

[TheGreek1973]

3 hours ago, bobandweave said:

 

If we let Kirk go we would get two third round compensatory draft picks for him next year from the league. That's the going rate for QBs and what Denver received when Osweiler left Denver.

 

I was making the point that if we said to ourselves that we would take someone in the 4th round this year and in 6 years when he left us we would get 2 third round picks for him would that work for you? I'd bet that 90% of the forum would be happy with that.

 

Then I spoke about his attitude in the interviews he has been giving since he lost to the Giants. I don't like this side of Kirk, makes me worried about signing him long term even more now.

 

 

Oh man that is awesome.  two 3rd round picks?  Wow, so Scottie can go out and draft real football players like Matt Jones and the like. We got this man, SB...

[onedrop]

Redskin fans......i swear we are the only group that can and will simultaneously  wring our hands worrying about the damage a player yet to truly prove themselves will do to us if allowed to leave, argue for keeping a kicker with absent mojo because he hasn't had enough time AND want to ditch the best QB we've had in years due to a bunch of subjective stats and make believe cap numbers because it makes us feel savvy.

[Commander -JB-]

11 minutes ago, onedrop said:

Redskin fans......i swear we are the only group that can and will simultaneously  wring our hands worrying about the damage a player yet to truly prove themselves will do to us if allowed to leave, argue for keeping a kicker with absent mojo because he hasn't had enough time AND want to ditch the best QB we've had in years due to a bunch of subjective stats and make believe cap numbers because it makes us feel savvy.

I don't know, man.  It could also be that he played like a sissy in the two biggest games of the season.

[Rattlesnake88]

16 minutes ago, -JB- said:

I don't know, man.  It could also be that he played like a sissy in the two biggest games of the season.

I mean this weighs heavy. 

 

Romo really is the only other "good" qb I can think of that performed similarly in the past compared to how Kirk did this season. Good quarterbacks shouldn't soil themselves when their team needs them most. However he is the best qb we have had in ages and he is most likely a must sign player. It's just painful the situation he put us in. 

 

Its almost like having a really hot girlfriend who keeps asking you to get her a ring but she keeps standing you up and texting other dudes. However we are kinda a dumpy shapely man who is past our prime and desperately trying to make himself relavent again. 

[PartyPosse]

3 minutes ago, Rattlesnake88 said:

Romo really is the only other "good" qb I can think of that performed similarly in the past compared to how Kirk did this season. Good quarterbacks shouldn't soil themselves when their team needs them most. However he is the best qb we have had in ages and he is most likely a must sign player. It's just painful the situation he put us in. 

In terms of style they are vastly different but yeah, Kirk and Romo aren't that different in terms of poise and balls. Both have had some important big games and both have shat the bed in more often in key big games. We all mocked the cowboys for keeping Romo, but now we have our own.

[Rattlesnake88]

2 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

In terms of style they are vastly different but yeah, Kirk and Romo aren't that different in terms of poise and balls. Both have had some important big games and both have shat the bed in more often in key big games. We all mocked the cowboys for keeping Romo, but now we have our own.

Yea I guess I was a little vague in my comparison. Their poise was most comparable.

[Conn]

1. We are about to spend a ton of money in FA, which will probably offset whatever we would have gotten in terms of comp picks for letting Kirk go.

 

2. You can't get multiple comp picks for one player even if you spend nothing in FA and that player signs a massive contract, as far as I'm aware.

 

Just a bad idea all around.

[TSO]

On 1/8/2017 at 4:45 PM, BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93 said:

 

either way, Kirk needs to be a better playmaker if the team wants to succeed. Don't think even you guys can dispute that 

 

I'll dispute that. I've largely stayed away from the idiocy that the QB discussion on ES has once again devolved into... but since you're someone who can actually listen, I'll play here. Forgive me if this has already been addressed, I don't even enjoy entering this thread let alone reading all the way through it... but I thought I'd chime in about this point here.  

 

So, judging by the context of your post, I'm going to assume when you say "playmaker" you mean extending plays or doing more when things go "off-schedule". 

 

Here's the rub. I don't think a "playmaker" at QB has to mean that. 

 

There are different play styles for QBs. There isn't one special one that is elite whereas the others aren't. Rodgers is in a league of his own at this point with his pocket manipulation and slippery elusiveness. It's truly amazing. No one is doing what he's doing right now, and even he hasn't always been this good at it. 

 

Then you have a guy like Wilson who is like Rodgers in terms of extending plays using their elusiveness. But Wilson isn't necessarily a master at manipulating the pocket, he just uses his legs really well once he breaks contain and has great balance.

 

You have a guy like Roethlisberger who extends plays because of his size and strength. He's incredibly difficult to bring down and can make throws with guys all over him that no one else can.   

 

Those are the "extenders". 

 

Then you have more of the field general types who excel at getting rid of the ball quickly and have a mastery over their offense as well as the defense's they're playing unlike others. They don't really extend plays much other than when their Oline's give them a ton of time and they sit in there reading the field. They do, however, have solid awareness within the pocket and can find space to operate within it. Tom Brady and Peyton Manning were/are the height of this class. Brees, as well. 

 

Most good QBs fall into the latter class, though some have a combination of the above skills but just aren't great at it like the aforementioned names.  

 

Cousins definitely falls into the latter class. His numbers actually compare very favorably to those names. He's not a total waste in terms of extending plays, he has solid pocket awareness and he's faster than Brady or Manning.

 

But, like those QBs, he excels at deciphering defense's and getting rid of the ball quickly. I've recently read here a post from someone showing the difference in his rating when he throws under 2.6 seconds versus over that, and I laughed at the conclusion made because the numbers were bad on the over while his almost perfect rating on the under was ignored.  

 

Here's a post I made on the topic some time ago: 

 

 

Quote

Watching redzone right now and they were on the Pats-Niners game. 

 

Interesting stat just got mentioned.

 

Basically, Tom Brady has an 85% completion rate when he's getting rid of the ball in 2.6 seconds or less. Anything longer than that and it drops down to 50-something% (forgot the exact number, but it's over a 30% difference). 

 

It's the largest drop off in the league, according to the commentator. 

 

To me, it just lends more credence to my thoughts on Kirk's skill at releasing the ball quickly. I believe it's downplayed too much, but that it's something the best QBs do consistently, and they don't need to make up for it by making more "off-schedule" plays and/or extending a failed play, necessarily.

 

I don't think anyone would say Tom Brady isn't playing at an elite level this year, even with those numbers.

 

It's been my opinion that, if Kirk can keep getting better at that facet of his play (he's already very, very good there as is), he can move into elite territory without having to improve significantly in terms of extending plays or off-schedule plays. Not to say I'm not all for him improving that aspect of his play, lol.

 

Or that he's terrible at it in the first place.     

 

I still stand by this assessment. 

 

Yes, it would be nice if Kirk can improve on the off-schedule/extended stuff. It'd be nice if he started dodging guys and making things happen with his legs behind the LOS. He certainly can work on that and, who knows, maybe he improves there. 

 

But I don't agree with anyone saying that's what needs to be done. If he continues to get better at deciphering defense's and getting rid of the ball quickly, he can be elite. He can be Tom Brady, Peyton Manning and/or Drew Brees. There's no reason to think it's impossible or even unlikely. 

 

The games he played really poorly in (specifically the Panthers and Giants games) were that way because he wasn't reading the field like his usual self. Their defense's got him there. So he held onto the ball longer or was unsure of himself, leading to inaccuracy. But that's the exception. If he gets to the point where he's almost never confused (and he's very, very close to this), those type of games don't happen.

 

This is what Tom Brady and Peyton Manning have made careers out of. They just became so amazingly good at mastering their offense (I think Kirk is there) and deciphering defense's (he's very good there, but not elite... YET) that they got rid of the ball so quickly, so accurately, with confidence, and just knew where to go with it at all times that it nullified anything the defense was doing. This is where the protection calls, manipulating the time clock and snap count to force the defense to identify themselves, audibling to the best play, calling hot routes, etc... stuff that often goes unnoticed separates these type of QBs from the pack.

 

And those who look at Kirk's stats and say "he hasn't improved this season" are simply ignoring that. There's no way you can tell me he's the same guy with those things. No way. I was amazed how many times I saw him give a signal to a WR, fake the hike a couple times, change the play, call out a different protection after the defense identified what they were doing, etc... this year and told myself "...I don't remember a Redskin QB doing these things".   

 

In my mind, if he perfects that part of his game (deciphering defense's), he will be elite. And while there isn't indisputable evidence that he will, I see a guy who has improved there so much from where he was that I find it hard to believe he won't.    

 

And no, he doesn't need to improve significantly in terms of extending plays to become a better QB. He can simply continue on the path he's on.  

 

That perfect rating on throws under 2.6 seconds is awesome. Elite QBs have made careers off of that. No amount of downplaying it, claiming yards are meaningless (right, like we needed our defense on the field MORE if we didn't convert all those 3rd downs, lulz), intensely focusing on redzone stats/points scored in one year while ignoring the other year, or whatever else changes that.

 

You don't let that go, period. Pay him what the market dictates. 

[onedrop]

4 minutes ago, -JB- said:

I don't know, man.  It could also be that he played like a sissy in the two biggest games of the season.

ok, lets say that is the case. a couple bad games in the second year as a starter in the most difficult role in all of pro sports. we wouldn't have been in a position to have him "let us down" if it wasn't for his previous play, all the way back to last years division title. the man did his part. 

 

now we sit around a cry about his language surrounding contract  negotiations. how else is the guy supposed to feel? expected to be a career backup dude comes out a first year starter setting team records helping his team to a winning record and division title. SORRY, not enough for a contract, do it again. and he does, almost.....Doctson OUT, Reed doing injured Reed things, T Williams missing a fourth of season to WEED, the kicker permanently scarred by the baboooong in london, a starting RB that should be a beast but is soft like a soggy taco, VERY suspect red zone play calling AND a rag tag bunch of misfits on D led by joe freaking berry that can't ever get off the field and we STILL had a chance in our last game.  his INT effectively ended that chance but he didn't lose that game by himself.

 

are we so far removed from our absolute suckage and want of consistent play at qb that we will dismiss consistently "good" because one winning season followed by a non losing season has us feeling strong and demanding consistently "elite"? AND if not "elite" just start over? 

 

yeah, ditch the guy that helped get us here, start Colt and draft our next "elite" kid. with all of the other holes to fill by the time said elite kid is ready to start we'll be bereft of OL and he'll get ****ing murdered in the pocket. have we forgotten everything about this organization?

 

 

[PartyPosse]

9 minutes ago, onedrop said:

ok, lets say that is the case. a couple bad games in the second year as a starter in the most difficult role in all of pro sports. we wouldn't have been in a position to have him "let us down" if it wasn't for his previous play, all the way back to last years division title. the man did his part. 

But we were in position, forget what he did in the first 13 games, and he faltered. 

[Taylor703]

1 hour ago, onedrop said:

Redskin fans......i swear we are the only group that can and will simultaneously  wring our hands worrying about the damage a player yet to truly prove themselves will do to us if allowed to leave, argue for keeping a kicker with absent mojo because he hasn't had enough time AND want to ditch the best QB we've had in years due to a bunch of subjective stats and make believe cap numbers because it makes us feel savvy.

He's the best QB we've had in years because we've had crap for years. Watch what Aaron Rodgers did to the Giants, that's what you pay $25M a season. Kirk had his chance to earn a monster contract and he crapped the bed. It was on him and he failed. This is becoming a pattern for him. When the lights get bright, he simply cannot perform. 

 

So with that said, do we just pay him and hope that changes? Because if you're paying someone what Kirk wants to be paid the excuses cannot be used anymore. If he's being paid like an elite player he better perform like one. This isn't just as easy as fans are making it out to be. There's a ton of factors that come into play with this contract. 

[onedrop]

2 minutes ago, Taylor703 said:

If he's being paid like an elite player he better perform like one. 

if you want to apply this logic with the sliding scale of pay to perceived "eliteness" almost every single player and coach of this team should be replaced.

 

we need to stop worrying about "deserve" and frankly some need to stop wanting to punish for failing to make the playoffs. its about going forward and Cousins is the best option for this team right now. 

 

So once again, who gives a **** how much he's paid? at the end of the day a player is "worth" exactly what he can get a team to pay him. else they wouldn't pay it.

[Taylor703]

11 minutes ago, onedrop said:

if you want to apply this logic with the sliding scale of pay to perceived "eliteness" almost every single player and coach of this team should be replaced.

 

we need to stop worrying about "deserve" and frankly some need to stop wanting to punish for failing to make the playoffs. its about going forward and Cousins is the best option for this team right now. 

 

So once again, who gives a **** how much he's paid? at the end of the day a player is "worth" exactly what he can get a team to pay him. else they wouldn't pay it.

 

How does this make sense at all? We didn't just miss the playoffs, he failed time and time again in games we needed to win. He flat out choked. He ran his mouth, rubbed the god damn GMs head in front of the whole world and when the stage got bigger his balls shrunk. 

 

And the money is certainly important. It's a large percentage of our cap and will be so going forward. It will most certainly cost us a couple of homegrown players and if he's not playing at an elite level than he's not worth the money.

 

This is unprecedented. We're going to make a guy who hasn't won a playoff game and threw up all over himself when it mattered most this year the highest paid player in football and that's supposed to be okay? Sure, why not? What could possibly go wrong? 

[onedrop]

20 minutes ago, Taylor703 said:

 

How does this make sense at all? We didn't just miss the playoffs, he failed time and time again in games we needed to win. He flat out choked. He ran his mouth, rubbed the god damn GMs head in front of the whole world and when the stage got bigger his balls shrunk. 

 

And the money is certainly important. It's a large percentage of our cap and will be so going forward. It will most certainly cost us a couple of homegrown players and if he's not playing at an elite level than he's not worth the money.

 

This is unprecedented. We're going to make a guy who hasn't won a playoff game and threw up all over himself when it mattered most this year the highest paid player in football and that's supposed to be okay? Sure, why not? What could possibly go wrong? 

if he failed repeatedly SO DID EVERYONE ELSE.

 

the team has basically said "we won't be held hostage". KC has said "i won't be underpaid". if the two sides can meet in the middle that is all that matters, all else will take care of itself.

 

just about every off season someone becomes the highest paid player ever...and that lasts for about 2 minutes in the greater scheme of life.  but sure, instead of, i don't know, STICKING with a good, not perfect, but good qb lets do something unprecedented in Redskins land.....wait for it.......lets ditch what we have and trade away some picks and or players for an unproven draft pick! if we are lucky we can get one that doesn't separate his own joints this time. or even better, we can go out and sign some flashy but washed up big name free agent! 

 

look, either way, through barter, trade or cash the price will be paid. the only thing we haven't tried yet is STICKING with the guy that we have HOMEGROWN...that isn't made of glass.

[KokoMike]

Cousinsanity.

[PapaLazarou]

On 1/8/2017 at 0:55 PM, DC9 said:

....

What's next for the Redskins from top to bottom?  Walk through this with me.

[DC9]

41 minutes ago, PapaLazarou said:

Scorpion Save

 

That's what I thought you'd say.

[PapaLazarou]

10 minutes ago, DC9 said:

 

That's what I thought you'd say.

Would you thought that's what I say? Good for you then. You should be playing the odds, not bumming around Extremeskins with your omniscience. 

[DC9]

3 hours ago, PapaLazarou said:

Would you thought that's what I say? Good for you then. You should be playing the odds, not bumming around Extremeskins with your omniscience. 

 

If I wasn't here then who else would educate the masses on your poop info and opinions?

[Why am I Mr. Pink?]

Kirk seems to want FA. 

 

I wonder if a team, through back door channels, has let Mike McCartney (Cousins agent) know that there is a huge offer waiting for him if he hits FA. 

 

----------------------------------

 

In an interview with the Sports Junkies on Tuesday, ex-agent Joel Corry said he expects the similarities to continue in the coming months.

"I think it's probably going to play out the same way that it did last year, at least early on in the offseason," Corry said. "His contract demands are gonna go up from what they were last time. They were far apart from the Redskins in terms of reaching a long-term deal [last year]. Once those new demands — which are probably going to be in that Andrew Luck range — are communicated in an offer or counter offer to the Redskins, they're going to realize if we want to keep him at least for the 2017 season, we need to protect ourselves and stick a franchise tag on him."

Corry thinks they'll tag him once again. What happens next, then?

"Cousins will sign it immediately like he did last year because it's fully guaranteed," he said. "Then the Redskins are gonna have to determine whether they want to pay him that type of money by the July 15 deadline, or risk going into next season, where a third franchise tag would be basically $34.5 million... and letting him potentially walk out the door in 2018."

So, Corry envisions the time between Washington tagging Cousins and the cut-off date for a long-term in July as being vital.

http://www.csnmidatlantic.com/washington-redskins/ex-agent-redskins-still-doubt-kirk-cousins-which-will-affect-his-next-contract

Indianapolis Colts quarterback Andrew Luck has signed a record contract that keeps him with the franchise through 2021, the team announced Wednesday afternoon. Team owner Jim Irsay revealed the new pact is worth $140 million over six years. The $23.3 million average annual salary is the highest in NFL history.Jun 29, 2016

[Gizmo 3squire]

18 hours ago, PartyPosse said:

As I put in another thread, check out Cousins numbers in bowl games at MSU. He fell apart in all three of them and that was with Leveon Bell as his RB. 

 

I said this when we drafted him. Look at his combine report. This is his peak, regardless of a Run Game or defense, and the notion that "we'll be terrible for another 20 years if we let Cousins walk" is preposterous.lol

[Warhead36]

Doc Walker put it best on the radio this morning. Cousins may not be THE answer, but he's absolutely part of the solution.

 

If you're in favor of letting him go, you're accepting the fact that we're probably going 4-12 next year.

[Alexa]

Kind of burned out of the Kirk talk. Just sign the guy.

[Bang]

41 minutes ago, Gizmo 3squire said:

 

I said this when we drafted him. Look at his combine report. This is his peak, regardless of a Run Game or defense, and the notion that "we'll be terrible for another 20 years if we let Cousins walk" is preposterous.lol

Consecutive 4,000+ yard seasons is a better peak than 99% of all QBs to ever play this game.

You say this like it's a bad thing. "All he's going to do is break records.. we can do better."

 

 

the most important piece is here.  He is capable, and he's still growing. Screaming for perfection is ridiculous, and does insure losing, because no matter what, this mindset is never satisfied to allow growth. when the next answer inevitably stumbles during growth, out he goes for the next great idea.
This mindset is also never wrong, it constantly stands from a base of supposition.

Hard fact versus more pie in the sky hope and claims of better being just around the next corner.

 

I'll take my chances with what is evident, as opposed to fantasy.

 

~Bang

[Gizmo 3squire]

6 minutes ago, Bang said:

Consecutive 4,000+ yard seasons is a better peak than 99% of all QBs to ever play this game.

You say this like it's a bad thing. All he's going to do is break records.

 

the most important piece is here.  He is capable, and he's still growing. Screaming for perfection is ridiculous, and does insure losing, because no matter what, this mindset is never satisfied to allow growth.
This mindset is also never wrong, but it constantly stands from a base of supposition.

Hard fact versus more pie in the sky hope and claims of better being just around the next corner.

 

I'll take my chances with what is evident, as opposed to fantasy.

 

~Bang

 

Fair enough. Though I don't believe that he can get better than this, I do hope he develops and want him here so this issue can end. My issue is that paying big for mediocrity is becoming a trend in the NFL and if you're the Redskins you don't want to fall into that trap, as that's a familiar area with this franchise. Which is why i'm for tagging him again if there can't be a reasonable deal on both ends. 

 

But I imagine a scenario in the coming years (5 or 6 years or so from now) where the franchises have come up with something to prevent situations like this from happening, where they are forced to shell out franchise QB money for temporary QBs just because they're the best options available. The fact that this positions demand is so high and the cost of having a competent QB is expensive is absurd imo because it's costing teams development. Error on the Owner and Organization, but Sam Bradford comes to mind.lol