Trump and his cabinet/buffoonery- Get your bunkers ready!

[tshile]

14 minutes ago, LD0506 said:

but my main issue here is a pragmatic one, how well does this work? Time and time again it has been shown that torture (or whatever other Orwellian doublespeak we're using today) really isn't all that effective

 

You sure about that?

 

the report on water boarding says we got info out of ksm. It just hand waves that away because we also got the same info other ways (and then pretends corroborating info isn’t important)

 

Haspell testifies we got info.

 

Theres a segment of our society that wants people charged with crimes for it. There’s a game being played with the word “torture”

 

you have to read between the lines. If you do so you might come to a different conclusion about what does and doesn’t work. 

 

Only one side of the story is getting out. Think about why.

[tshile]

@LD0506

if it doesn’t work at all then why did the cia keep doing it? We know of at last 6 select people they did it. Are they just savages? Were they just seeing it as a form of justice? 

 

They cia makes mistakes. But if you go through  the history many of the mistakes the cia takes the blame for are really caused by our government setting agendas and changing policy despite cia requests and inputs. The rise of OBL is not because the cia dropped he ball, it’s because our leaders decided the Middle East was boring and shut down all our efforts there. 

 

Are the cia agents just immoral savages that continues to do this despite yielding no results? Are they so inept as to be unable to separate quality info from fake info given in a moment of stress? (Good interrogators know the answer to 7 of the 10 questions they’re asking you, and intelligence operations depend heavily on corroborated intel)

 

I’m pragmatic about it as you are. I think I’m just looking at it from a different side. I’m willing to accept the cia was full of fools and were caught being savages - I’m just not sure there’s evidence that was the case. 

[AsburySkinsFan]

19 minutes ago, tshile said:

 

You sure about that?

 

the report on water boarding says we got info out of ksm. It just hand waves that away because we also got the same info other ways (and then pretends corroborating info isn’t important)

 

Haspell testifies we got info.

 

Theres a segment of our society that wants people charged with crimes for it. There’s a game being played with the word “torture”

 

you have to read between the lines. If you do so you might come to a different conclusion about what does and doesn’t work. 

 

Only one side of the story is getting out. Think about why.

The Geneva Convention lists waterboarding as torture, the US help draft that very treaty. 

We do not torture, it is a short term gain and a long term loss. You can play with the word all you want in attempts to redefine and perpetrate a death by 10,000 cuts but it is against international law that WE crafted. The very reason we did so was to protect our people when fighting against other nations. 

Yeah I get that ISIS gives no ****s about the Geneva Convention but you do NOT defeat an enemy like ISIS by becoming them.

 

Using the excuse that some intel was gathered using torture thereby legitimizing the practice is only degrees different than allowing human experimentation because of the benefits it can lead to for health care.

8 minutes ago, tshile said:

 

The rise of OBL is not because the cia dropped he ball, it’s because our leaders decided the Middle East was boring and shut down all our efforts there. 

Well that’s just wrong.

And that’s based on everything that OBL said which was that he was fighting against US presence in Saudi Arabia and US interference in the Middle East. It wasn’t because shut down efforts there, it was the exact opposite...we were there meddling to begin with.

[Riggo-toni]

@tshile, you should read Black Banners by former FBI agent Ali Soufan. I don't have an issue with the morality of our enhanced interrogations, but not only was it ineffective, we potentially lost significant intel once we implemented it in place of what had been effective questioning by seasoned FBI interrogators. Reports extolling the effectiveness of torture were released by the CIA, but the information "confessed" by Zubaydah and KSM after waterboarding and such had already been given previously to the FBI.

[tshile]

4 minutes ago, Riggo-toni said:

but the information "confessed" by Zubaydah and KSM after waterboarding and such had already been given previously to the FBI.

 

This has already Been addresses. 

[Fresh8686]

44 minutes ago, tshile said:

 

I’m not interested in moral high ground when it comes to terrorists. I’m not interested in norms, or what others think of us. I’m interested in stopping them from sending young girls into sex slavery, from flying planes into buildings, from bombing markets while people shop.

 

im fine with the rest you clinging to your moral high ground when places are shot up and people are run over while standing on the sidewalk. When journalists are bombed for reporting on a bombing. I understand why you all do that. 

 

I, on the other hand, am past it. I’m more interested in destroying them, than being happy with my morals. I’m capable of holding on to my morals with everything else in life, and suspending them for this one dispicible plague on our entire world for the time being. I’m not fearful of some bull**** slippery slope of becoming just like them. 

 

“More likely for them to use it on us” 

They’ve got their motives and marching orders and it has **** all to do with what we do or don’t do. We’ve been fighting them for almost two decades with one hand tied behind our back, playing nice and caring about hearts and minds, and it’s gotten is no where in the big picture. 

 

I also am capable of being ok with select, special treatment of someone like KSM and being angry with the same, unnecessary treatment of an underling for which there is no true value for us in the grand scheme of things. 

 

Im tired of this demand that we treat people who are responsible for the most heinous acts possible like the rest of the human race. They are not people. They are animals. Anyone who’s moral standing allows them to put a 10 year old girl into sex slavery, or lock a person in a cage and burn them alive solely because of their religion, needs to treated like the heinous animal they are. 

 

You all all can keep your moral high ground in this one. Im positive that’s the way we’ll stay. So we will continue to get to see the results it yields.

This is weakness to me. Brutality is ****ing horrible, but it's weakness to be so overcome by brutality that you discard the opportunity to handle it, while still keeping integrity and being more.

First of all you're setting up false extremes and implying that we can only stop those things by giving up our integrity and sinking down to their level.

How about we try to be smarter, before we decide to be worse?

Will there be times where we're trapped by time or circumstance and have to resort to brutality? Probably, but it is never justified and there will always be consequences to it.

 

Have you ever got your hands dirty? Did some brutal **** or seen it first-hand? That ugliness isn't just something you shrug off, it's got a cost man.





 

[AsburySkinsFan]

Just now, tshile said:

 

This has already Been addresses. 

Translated: “this has already been ignored”.

[tshile]

It wasn’t ignored you just couldn’t figure it out. It’s ok because many don’t seem able to. 

7 minutes ago, Fresh8686 said:

First of all you're setting up false extremes and implying that we can only stop those things by giving up our integrity and sinking down to their level.

 

This is utter horse ****. Water boarding ksm is not sinking down to their level. Everyone knows that. 

[Fresh8686]

3 minutes ago, tshile said:

It wasn’t ignored you just couldn’t figure it out. It’s ok because many don’t seem able to. 

 

This is utter horse ****. Water boarding ksm is not sinking down to their level. Everyone knows that. Cling to your false moral high ground, it’s fine by me. 

I don't think you have any idea what you're talking about. If you've never broken someone down, been broken down, or seen someone broken down you have no idea at all what the costs are for that or how it changes you. 

If you don't have that experience you're acting like a keyboard jockey right now.
 

[AsburySkinsFan]

5 minutes ago, tshile said:

 

This is utter horse ****. Water boarding ksm is not sinking down to their level. Everyone knows that. 

You’re right, it wasn’t cutting the heads off people. 

But as defined by LAW it is torture. Your argument is that you want to justify legally torture in order to pursue result that is far from guaranteed. 

Good luck with that, I’m sure you can sell that to the mouth foaming group of barbarians in our country who civility is merely a cover for their barbarism, but you won’t sell it to us.

[tshile]

6 minutes ago, Fresh8686 said:

I don't think you have any idea what you're talking about. If you've never broken someone down, been broken down, or seen someone broken down you have no idea at all what the costs are for that or how it changes you. 

If you don't have that experience you're acting like a keyboard jockey right now.
 

 

Waterboardon ksm is not anywhere close to flying plane so into buildings. 

It’s not anywhere close to burning a person in a cage because of their religion. 

Or mass executions.

or kidnapping your girls and selling them to sex slavery. 

 

Youre drawing an equivalency that isn’t there. You want to claim it’s immoral and we shouldn’t do it - fine. 

 

But what you actually said is complete horse ****. 

[TradeTheBeal!]

Drone striking hospitals is a whole lot like flying planes into buildings.

[Fresh8686]

1 minute ago, tshile said:

 

Waterboardon ksm is not anywhere close to flying plane so into buildings. 

Most not anywhere close to burning a person in a cage because of their religion. 

Or mass executions.

or kidnapping your girls and selling them to sex slavery. 

 

Youre drawing an equivalency that isn’t there. You want to claim it’s immoral and we shouldn’t do it - find. 

 

But what you actually said is complete horse ****. 

What part is horse****? It is weakness to be so overcome by the brutality of others, that you discard the opportunity to handle that brutality while still keeping your integrity. One of the most important capabilites in this entire world a human can have is to go through horrible **** and not be twisted by it. It's also one of the hardest abilities to have and maintain. I've devoted a lot of my life to being able to survive horrible ****, while being more.

I didn't draw an equivalency, I said they were both behind a line that shouldn't be crossed. The bottom line is, you don't intentionally break another person for gain. That is the line. I can still recongnize different orders of magnitude while, rejecting both because they are behind a line that shouldn't be crossed.

 

[AsburySkinsFan]

2 minutes ago, tshile said:

 

Waterboardon ksm is not anywhere close to flying plane so into buildings. 

It’s not anywhere close to burning a person in a cage because of their religion. 

Or mass executions.

or kidnapping your girls and selling them to sex slavery. 

 

Youre drawing an equivalency that isn’t there. You want to claim it’s immoral and we shouldn’t do it - fine. 

 

But what you actually said is complete horse ****. 

FYI, flying planes into buildings, mass shootings, burning people alive, and sex slavery are not torture...agreed.

 

I’m thrilled that you’ve established that 2, 3, 4, & 5 aren’t the same as 8. For that matter 3 isn’t the same as 2 either, just in case that needed pointed out too.

 

You problem is that you are defining 2, 3, 4, & 5 as evils and pretending 8 isn’t because it MIGHT give you information. That is a utilitarian argument that has been used to justify countless atrocities, like 2, 3, 4 & 5.

[visionary]

Torture should not be normalized.  Perhaps there is a discussion to be had about some methods of enhanced interrogation and about some extreme circumstances, but we should not pretend as if legalizing it would result in only the worst people being tortured in the extremest circumstances.

 

 In general if one thinks they need to use such methods, that person or persons must be willing to face the consequences, and if the circumstances were truly extreme and the results are good, perhaps others will see it as they did.

[tshile]

Just now, Fresh8686 said:

What part is horse****?

 

The entire part. You’re stuck in a black and white world that doesn’t exist. You throw around false equivalency claims. Don’t. You want to claim moral high ground then find, do it. 

 

Spare me the nonsense about sinking to their level. It’s unnuanced gibberish that comes from black and white thinking that is incredibly naive and not useful. 

1 minute ago, visionary said:

but we should not pretend as if legalizing it would result in only the worst people being tortured in the extremest circumstances.

 

 

Instead we should pretend it’s a slippery slope? We should pretend we’re not smart enough or in control enough to evaluate situations in their own merits?

 

seems like a silly argument. 

[visionary]

 

 

 

[tshile]

10 minutes ago, TryTheBeal! said:

Drone striking hospitals is a whole lot like flying planes into buildings.

 

I have a bigger issue with our drones than keeping ksm from sleeping well. 

 

Its interesting where people get their moral outrage from. 

[Kilmer17]

11 minutes ago, TryTheBeal! said:

Drone striking hospitals is a whole lot like flying planes into buildings.

Shhh.  Neither side talks about our drone program.

[Fresh8686]

Just now, tshile said:

 

The entire part. You’re stuck in a black and white world that doesn’t exist. You throw around false equivalency claims. Don’t. You want to claim moral high ground then find, do it. 

 

Spare me the nonsense about sinking to their level. It’s unnuanced gibberish that comes from black and white thinking that is incredibly naive and not useful. 

I've seen the effects of torture and been ****ing broken firsthand and you're calling me the naive one?

Again, you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. This is just an intellectual exercise for you, when this is real life for me.

Again, it is possible and valid to recognize the difference between two or more things, while still rejecting them both.

[visionary]

Why not just nominate the guy who’s in charge now?

[visionary]

 

 

 

 

 

[TradeTheBeal!]

3 hours ago, Kilmer17 said:

Shhh.  Neither side talks about our drone program.

 

Drone bombing is one thing.

 

Drone bombing hospitals based on intel you received via scrotum-taser while whining about hijackings that occurred 20 years ago is a different thing.

[Fresh8686]

@tshile

 

Just so I know what kind of person you are. Do think it's funny that people close to me have been tortured and I've been through torturous **** myself?

If so, I'll keep what I think about you to myself so I don't get banned and just put your ass on ignore from now on.

 

[The Evil Genius]

Looks like McInerny has been disinvited from Fox News from now on.

 

We'll see how long it lasts.

 

Be nice if the military took a star or two away for being a total douchebag towards vets. ?