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USA Today: Protests break out after Baton Rouge police fatally shoot man

Sticksboi05

By Sticksboi05
in The Tailgate

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twa

twa

Posted
Posted

Like I said, twa... if they wanted to kill the man they succeeded.  If they didn't want to kill the man, then they could've avoided it and been perfectly safe.

 

That's what this discussion is all about.

 

Not sure how you can say they would have been perfectly safe with a clearly resisting suspect with a gun.

 

would you approve of bashing his head in with the butt?

 

I agree shooting him probably could have been avoided....saying they wanted to shoot is a bit of a stretch

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DC9

DC9

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as I understand it, deadly force rules for the military are different from law enforcement.  its more of a grey area, where the officer has to believe hes in immediate danger. that can include almost any physical altercation, particularly because the suspect can grab the officers gun in an instant.

 

heres an example http://www.msn.com/en-in/sports/other/watch-murder-suspect-tries-to-steal-cops-gun/vi-AAhCK0b

 

heres a podcast by sam harris with scott reitz, a former police officer and trainer with tons of experience. he talks about deadly force (about the 23 minute mark), and some of the problems with law enforcement today including lack of proper training.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YCMubkhMK6c

 

Yeah, no doubt they're a bit different.  My thing is that it's clear to me that they wanted to kill this guy and it's clear to me that they didn't have to kill this guy to get out of the situation safely.  And there doesn't seem to be a unified rule or definition of "imminent danger" as that probably changes state to state, but they need to be re-evaluated. 

 

And I'm not saying any of these officer involved shootings that have made national headlines before were or were not justified, more often than not I side with the facts and the facts almost always side with the police officers.  But this one, this one is scary.  Those two cops looked like they were trying to kill a wild animal.

 

But I think another great deterrent would be to see some of these guys go to prison.  As you mentioned, training is HUGE.  And it helps hit that nail a little bit further home when at the end of the training and vignettes you can show some pictures of officers in a prison cell with a little nugget about what they did and how much time they got.

 

That's what we do and it works wonders.  Amazing.

Not sure how you can say they would have been perfectly safe with a clearly resisting suspect with a gun.

 

would you approve of bashing his head in with the butt?

 

I agree shooting him probably could have been avoided....saying they wanted to shoot is a bit of a stretch

 

Two guys on top of someone... gun in a pocket.

 

Give me a brand new Soldier fresh out of basic training with the non-lethal weapons they had against a 300lbs man and I guarantee you it's not hard. 

 

And I'm not just arm chairing here, for me it's actually harder to shoot someone... this dude went straight for it.  Five - six times.  Ridiculous.

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Sticksboi05

Sticksboi05

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Bad cops are the biggest gangsters in the country, bar none. And it'a ****ing terrifying because--like with my BP situation--what's the recourse for Joe Blow on the corner? Jack ****. You get a police officer on a bad day, he can literally ruin your life.

 

...

(And don't get me wrong, there are a lot of great cops out there. I got stories on that front as well. They desperately need to step up though. I don't envy them on that but they're in the best position to make a difference.)

 

We could use quite a few more Frank Serpicos in this country. And he's still hated by the NYPD today. By people who weren't even around in the early 70s. The thin blue line is the biggest hypocritical **** in the country. Police try so hard to break the no snitching code on the streets and let their own kind piss all over their reputation with the community.

 

Officer Walker in The Wire comes to mind.

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grego

grego

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I think that is probably a big part of it. After the officers get out of the academy how much additional training do they get? The SWAT guys get a lot training but do the street cops get anything besides annual qualifying?

 

 

yep. reitz was talking about how almost all (if not all) additional training is done at the officers own expense. so, its not happening.

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Predicto

Predicto

Posted
Posted

That's not a fair comment at all. From the statements ive read of the local chief and officials, they were calling for an independent investigation into this before the national story broke

Certainly a much higher degree of transparency and professionalism than anything we've seen in, say, California:)

 

 

I'm not speaking of this particular incident.   Louisiana as a state has probably the most extreme history of police corruption and shooting civilians (and getting away with it) in the entire nation.      

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Predicto

Predicto

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Posted

 

 

I posted the info above to attempt to counteract the narrative we see so many times in cases like this that take a smiling picture of the victim and a few quotes from friends to make it look like the guy was the nicest guy in the world and wouldn't hurt a fly. Again, that does not mean he deserved to be killed. But he likely wasn't just innocently walking down the street minding his own business either. 

 

 

 

 

 

Ummm.... why exactly is it important to "counteract" this narrative immediately?  

 

Is it dangerous for us all to start with the underlying assumption that the person who died was an actual human being?    If that happens, does that mean that the bad guys win?  

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Larry

Larry

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If I did that in Iraq or Afghanistan I'm going to prison.

 

They have to be in the act of shooting.

Please post the story of the US soldiers who were sent to prison for shooting armed civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan, on the grounds that "They have to be in the act of shooting". 

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twa

twa

Posted
Posted

 

 

Two guys on top of someone... gun in a pocket.

 

Give me a brand new Soldier fresh out of basic training with the non-lethal weapons they had against a 300lbs man and I guarantee you it's not hard. 

 

And I'm not just arm chairing here, for me it's actually harder to shoot someone... this dude went straight for it.  Five - six times.  Ridiculous.

 

I don't think it would be too hard for me and another trained, but they are not us.

 

from what I can see of the vid he did not go for it until gun was noted and even then hesitated.

they shoot till the threat ends once began

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DC9

DC9

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Please post the story of the US soldiers who were sent to prison for shooting armed civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan, on the grounds that "They have to be in the act of shooting". 

 

pC5appI.gif

 

Come again? 

I don't think it would be too hard for me and another trained, but they are not us.

 

from what I can see of the vid he did not go for it until gun was noted and even then hesitated.

they shoot till the threat ends once began

 

For me it's this easy... worst case they executed him.

 

BEST case they killed him when they didn't have to.

 

Both are murders and both are beyond infuriating to me.

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twa

twa

Posted
Posted

Not fully complying with officers is never a good idea.  But you don't deserve to die over it.

 

Deserve doesn't really matter, it is a rather predictable ending if you carry a gun though.(or even w/o at times)

 

The cops intend to go home that night

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twa

twa

Posted
Posted

 

 

For me it's this easy... worst case they executed him.

 

BEST case they killed him when they didn't have to.

 

Both are murders and both are beyond infuriating to me.

 

Have to is not the legal standard, nor should it be imo

 

whether their actions were reasonable is yet to be determined, but so far it looks justifiable

there is a better chance they violated policy rather than the law

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DC9

DC9

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I'll thank you to leave my sex life out of it, and respond to the question I asked, about your post, which I quoted.

 

You didn't ask a question.  

 

I think you can go to google and look for yourself how many Soldiers got courts-martialed for ROE violations.

 

Don't be an ass. I'm not your ****ing servant.  

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Chew

Chew

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Posted

Deserve doesn't really matter, it is a rather predictable ending if you carry a gun though.(or even w/o at times)

 

The cops intend to go home that night

 

Fair enough.  But  from what I can see of the crappy video, they appear to have the guy pinned down.  of course when the shooting occurs, the person filming ducks, so we can't see clearly what happened.

 

As usual these days, there just happened to be somebody recording the whole thing with their phone. Thankfully.  Otherwise, since the body cameras fell off, the cops could say whatever the hell they wanted and it'd be a fact.  Not saying these cops would've lied about exactly what happened, but the opportunity would be there if they wanted to cover up their deadly mistake.  

 

The cop in SC that shot that guy in the back as he was running away comes to mind.  He was unaware he was being recorded at the time, and he completely lied about what happened to the officers that arrived on scene.

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DC9

DC9

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Have to is not the legal standard, nor should it be imo

 

whether their actions were reasonable is yet to be determined, but so far it looks justifiable

there is a better chance they violated policy rather than the law

 

You're totally fine having cops on the street who WANT to kill people that aren't a threat?

 

Honestly that's a fire they should be able to piss on.

 

(Again, I'm talking best case for the cops here - I think this one is far more sinister).

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Larry

Larry

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You didn't ask a question.

I think you can go to google and look for yourself how many Soldiers got courts-martialed for ROE violations.

Don't be an ass. I'm not your ****ing servant.

You didn't say "got court martialed". You said "going to prison".

For shooting an armed civilian who wasn't "in the act of shooting".

I'm asking you to back up the claim THAT YOU MADE, that EVEN YOU know wasn't remotely true.

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twa

twa

Posted
Posted

You're totally fine having cops on the street who WANT to kill people that aren't a threat?

 

Honestly that's a fire they should be able to piss on.

 

(Again, I'm talking best case for the cops here - I think this one is far more sinister).

 

a person resisting arrest while armed after being tazed and tackled is not someone non-threatening by default.

 

I am fine with anyone killing people to have to justify their actions....their wants they can deal with on their own unless stated.

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Predicto

Predicto

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You're totally fine having cops on the street who WANT to kill people that aren't a threat?

 

Honestly that's a fire they should be able to piss on.

 

(Again, I'm talking best case for the cops here - I think this one is far more sinister).

 

 

 

don't try to understand it - twa thinks it is justifiable self defense for a guy to call 911, refuse to follow the directions of the police dispatcher asking him to stay put, arm himself, leave his house and go to his neighbor's house, and shoot unarmed burglars in the back as they are fleeing the scene.  

 

In other words, he's a Texan.   :)

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