visionary Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malapropismic Depository Posted February 15, 2019 Share Posted February 15, 2019 SOTU edited for the highlights 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted February 15, 2019 Share Posted February 15, 2019 (edited) Edited February 15, 2019 by visionary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fergasun Posted February 15, 2019 Share Posted February 15, 2019 Very easy to read that story and others about Greyhound busses being stopped to understand why some folks think ICE has to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted February 15, 2019 Share Posted February 15, 2019 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CousinsCowgirl84 Posted February 15, 2019 Share Posted February 15, 2019 (edited) 23 minutes ago, Chachie said: Food! Uh huh... 1 hour ago, mistertim said: There's probably about a 99% chance that on a daily basis you use or rely on something that was at least partly the result of an undocumented worker. Roads, buildings, etc. Ok... 1 hour ago, Forehead said: Two industries that illegal aliens gravitate to that you may not be aware of are picking fruits and vegetable from farms, and the dairy industry. Many people who rail against illegal immigration would also be pissed off when the price of their milk, strawberries, oranges etc. double. You can't have it both ways. Indeed @PeterMP would have a heart attack seeing you all arguing that the cost of labor has anything to do with the price of goods... 1 hour ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said: Yes I agree. I agree, so why have a minimum wage for? The same arguments for the economic argument for minimum wage should also apply to which ever advantage illegal immigration offers in the form of low wage workers (or artificially increasing the cost of labor by creating barriers to entry into the labor pool) also, just because something is cheap doesn’t mean it is good... (just an effort to follow visionary’s lead and get the immigration talk in the right thread) Edited February 15, 2019 by CousinsCowgirl84 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted February 15, 2019 Share Posted February 15, 2019 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fergasun Posted February 16, 2019 Share Posted February 16, 2019 After reading fsr right sites, I think you need to add "invasion force' to the thread title. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted February 16, 2019 Share Posted February 16, 2019 (edited) 23 hours ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said: Uh huh... Ok... Indeed @PeterMP would have a heart attack seeing you all arguing that the cost of labor has anything to do with the price of goods... also, just because something is cheap doesn’t mean it is good... (just an effort to follow visionary’s lead and get the immigration talk in the right thread) The diary industry is throwing milk away. http://time.com/4530659/farmers-dump-milk-glut-surplus/ (Why? To keep supply low because prices are not tied to their production costs.) Production costs of milk could almost certainly increase without having any real affect on prices. Edited February 16, 2019 by PeterMP 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CousinsCowgirl84 Posted February 16, 2019 Share Posted February 16, 2019 1 hour ago, PeterMP said: The diary industry is throwing milk away. http://time.com/4530659/farmers-dump-milk-glut-surplus/ (Why? To keep supply low because prices are not tied to their production costs.) Production costs of milk could almost certainly increase without having any real affect on prices. There goes the fallacy that illegal immigrants help the economy by keeping prices low... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted February 16, 2019 Share Posted February 16, 2019 1 hour ago, PeterMP said: Production costs of milk could almost certainly increase without having any real affect on prices. But it would have an effect on profits. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted February 16, 2019 Share Posted February 16, 2019 (edited) 21 minutes ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said: There goes the fallacy that illegal immigrants help the economy by keeping prices low... I wouldn't make the claim that there is no impact on prices. There is some relationship between prices and production costs and I wouldn't say the pass through of increased wages is ever or universally 0% (e.g. making minimum wage $50.00 an hour would almost certainly affect the prices on somethings). The problem is when people apply the idea that production costs control prices to a specific situation/market/good and/or in a matter consistent with there being a 1:1 relationship. For any given industry, it is not trivial to determine the amount of pass through on wage increases. Economists spend a lot of time studying this and there still isn't good agreement. Though, I'm generally dubious of industry claims and studies funded by industry that say that without cheap workers the price of their products are going to up because as @Larry correctly points out, the one thing that will be affected for sure is profits. The diary industry claims that without illegal immigration the prices of milk will go up substantially. I'm extremely dubious of this claim. (In the agricultural industry, in general, I'm extremely dubious of claims of relationships between prices and production costs IF our government also allows actually allows the free market to function in terms of imports. Farm laborers come here partly because of laws that protect the US ag industry make it not economically viable to be ag workers in their own countries.) Edited February 16, 2019 by PeterMP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CousinsCowgirl84 Posted February 16, 2019 Share Posted February 16, 2019 (edited) 13 minutes ago, PeterMP said: I wouldn't make the claim that there is no impact on prices. Lol, we just had this conversation about minimum wage and you made the opposite argument. You literally said “prices aren’t determined by cost of production”.... Quote Quote as @Larry correctly points out, the one thing that will be affected for sure is profits. I agree with that, which is why I said that the only people illegal immigration helps is the super rich. Edited February 16, 2019 by CousinsCowgirl84 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted February 16, 2019 Share Posted February 16, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said: Lol, we just had this conversation about minimum wage and you made the opposite argument. I've never claimed that the minimum wage has no affect on prices or that there is 0 pass through of increases in wages. Please, show me the post where I did. (You edited. Prices aren't determined by the costs of production. Prices are determined by supply and demand. Production costs are one factor that affect supply and demand. It is possible for production costs to go up and prices not to go up (pass through is 0%). It is possible for production costs to go up and prices to go up some of the increase in the product costs. And it is possible for production costs to go up and the prices to go up a corresponding amount (i.e. pass through is 100%). But to simply say that because production costs will go up so will prices (especially a corresponding 1:1) is not true. Edited February 16, 2019 by PeterMP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 (edited) Edited February 17, 2019 by visionary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sacks 'n' Stuff Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 6 hours ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said: There goes the fallacy that illegal immigrants help the economy by keeping prices low... Not a fallacy. Difficult to ascertain, yes. Not a fallacy though. Definitely a very real possibility (likelihood even) of being true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CousinsCowgirl84 Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 (edited) 46 minutes ago, Sacks 'n' Stuff said: Not a fallacy. Difficult to ascertain, yes. Not a fallacy though. Definitely a very real possibility (likelihood even) of being true. Cheap labor from poor brown people OK, they are happy to work for practically nothing. Without low wage workers, we’d have lots of inflation. Cheap labor from US Citizens unnacceptable, we got to pay them a living wage. Paying them more won’t cause inflation. Come on guys, you don’t see the conflict in your argument??? Edited February 17, 2019 by CousinsCowgirl84 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 18 minutes ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said: Cheap labor from poor brown people OK, they are happy to work for practically nothing. Without low wage workers, we’d have lots of inflation. Cheap labor from US Citizens unnacceptable, we got to pay them a living wage. Paying them more won’t cause inflation. Come on guys, you don’t see the conflict in your argument??? Wow. I don't think I've ever seen anybody try to stage an argument between two straw men before. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sacks 'n' Stuff Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 26 minutes ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said: Cheap labor from poor brown people OK, they are happy to work for practically nothing. Without low wage workers, we’d have lots of inflation. Cheap labor from US Citizens unnacceptable, we got to pay them a living wage. Paying them more won’t cause inflation. Come on guys, you don’t see the conflict in your argument??? All I said was that it’s not a fallacy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CousinsCowgirl84 Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 (edited) 16 minutes ago, Larry said: Wow. I don't think I've ever seen anybody try to stage an argument between two straw men before. That is the argument that is being made... it’s not a strawman... If that’s not the argument being made i’d appreciate an explanation of the nuance... Edited February 17, 2019 by CousinsCowgirl84 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sacks 'n' Stuff Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 3 minutes ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said: That is the argument that is being made... it’s not a strawman... What happened is that you said something was a fallacy that wasn’t and then when I pointed it out, you countered with an ignoratio elenchi (which actually is a fallacy). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CousinsCowgirl84 Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 3 minutes ago, Sacks 'n' Stuff said: What happened is that you said something was a fallacy that wasn’t and then when I pointed it out, you countered with an ignoratio elenchi (which actually is a fallacy). I suppose if you take your post, place it in a complete vacuum and totally omit the bigger picture, you are correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sacks 'n' Stuff Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 13 minutes ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said: I suppose if you take your post, place it in a complete vacuum and totally omit the bigger picture, you are correct. If you were to take your post and omit the first 19 words, you would be as well 🙂 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 (edited) 10 hours ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said: That is the argument that is being made... it’s not a strawman... If that’s not the argument being made i’d appreciate an explanation of the nuance... Then quote the people making those arguments, instead of making up your own. 10 hours ago, Sacks 'n' Stuff said: What happened is that you said something was a fallacy that wasn’t and then when I pointed it out, you countered with an ignoratio elenchi (which actually is a fallacy). You are using Bonetti's defense against me. Edited February 17, 2019 by Larry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LD0506 Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 10 hours ago, Sacks 'n' Stuff said: What happened is that you said something was a fallacy that wasn’t and then when I pointed it out, you countered with an ignoratio elenchi (which actually is a fallacy). Ok, Sacks deserves some kind of special reward for working ignoratio elenchi into the thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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