The Gun Control Debate Thread

[abdcskins]

Good speech by Biden.  Agree with everything he is saying.

[tshile]

52 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

That we know of, handguns are the most common weapon used to kill people in the US.  The most common reason people are killed by firearms in this country is suicide.

 

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2022/02/03/what-the-data-says-about-gun-deaths-in-the-u-s/

 

Just things I found interesting:

 

the category that includes guns sometimes referred to as “assault weapons” – were involved in 3% of firearm murders

 

(so. Banning assault weapons accounts for 3% of murders. Know what you’re championing )

 

It’s important to note that the FBI’s statistics do not capture the details on all gun murders in the U.S. each year. The FBI’s data is based on information voluntarily submitted by police departments around the country, and not all agencies participate or provide complete information each year.

 

(this is the problem with gun crime stats. You don’t know what part of the picture we’re getting.  And then you see graphs showing how worse everything is but nothing to explain what part of those changes are due to increased reporting)

 

(also the various parts about issues with how things are defined, different methodologies used by different people to product metrics, etc… people throw around stats without any working understanding of what they’re throwing around. And then some of them tell us it’s easy and simple 🙄)

[Renegade7]

14 minutes ago, tshile said:

Despite what some say, it’s a very complicated issue. 
 

and my suggestion is to separate mass shootings from general gun violence. They’re two different issues. 
 

but also that means realizing these counts of mass shootings are bunk. They’re simply looking at # of people. There’s a difference between indiscriminate killing and there being a shooting that involves more than 2 people. 
 

it actually really irritates me the news did that. 
 

it just screams pushing and agenda. Even if that’s not why they’re doing it. 

 

Agreed, and would add we should separate acts of terrorism from all this and call it that, since this definition of "mass shooting" is missing the mark entirely on what's actually happening like that rampage in Buffalo.

 

Buffalo shooter got terrorism charges, as he should, then execute that SOB via firing squad.

 

@tshile Congress should maybe consider letting CDC research gun violence, if they haven't already 😒 

 

/sarcasm

Edited June 2, 2022 by Renegade7

[TheGreatBuzz]

2 hours ago, Larry said:

Just also going to insert, ....

 

While I suspect that the number of "coyote hunters" is small compared to "total AR-15 owners", I bet it's a lot bigger than "school mass shooters". 

 

Holy crap, Larry is actually making some valid points.  What world did I just wake up in?

[86 Snyder]

2 minutes ago, tshile said:

 

Just things I found interesting:

 

the category that includes guns sometimes referred to as “assault weapons” – were involved in 3% of firearm murders

 

(so. Banning assault weapons accounts for 3% of murders. Know what you’re championing )

 

It’s important to note that the FBI’s statistics do not capture the details on all gun murders in the U.S. each year. The FBI’s data is based on information voluntarily submitted by police departments around the country, and not all agencies participate or provide complete information each year.

 

(this is the problem with gun crime stats. You don’t know what part of the picture we’re getting.  And then you see graphs showing how worse everything is but nothing to explain what part of those changes are due to increased reporting)

 

(also the various parts about issues with how things are defined, different methodologies used by different people to product metrics, etc… people throw around stats without any working understanding of what they’re throwing around. And then some of them tell us it’s easy and simple 🙄)

“Only 3%”

 

So there’s an acceptable number of kids killed in schools that doesn’t require banning assault rifles.  Got it.

 

And yes, there is a clear difference between true mass shootings and what is sometimes lumped in with those numbers.  Perhaps we should start by passing laws aimed at eliminating the large scale mass shootings.

 

1 minute ago, The Almighty Buzz said:

 

Holy crap, Larry is actually making some valid points.  What world did I just wake up in?

 

What point is that?  Since there are more coyote hunters than school shooters we don’t need to worry about stopping the school shooters?  The **** kind of sense does that make?

 

AR-15s and the like >>> 1 dead school kid

AR-15s and the like >>> 2 dead school kids

AR-15s and the like >>> 3 dead school kids

 

Somebody let me know what the number is.

[TheGreatBuzz]

5 minutes ago, 86 Snyder said:

“Only 3%”

 

So there’s an acceptable number of kids killed in schools that doesn’t require banning assault rifles.  Got it.

 

And yes, there is a clear difference between true mass shootings and what is sometimes lumped in with those numbers.  Perhaps we should start by passing laws aimed at eliminating the large scale mass shootings.

 

 

What point is that?  Since there are more coyote hunters than school shooters we don’t need to worry about stopping the school shooters?  The **** kind of sense does that make?

 

AR-15s and the like >>> 1 dead school kid

AR-15s and the like >>> 2 dead school kids

AR-15s and the like >>> 3 dead school kids

 

Somebody let me know what the number is.

 

No one has said what you are trying to spin their posts as saying.  Honest conversation is a two way street.  If you're gonna make stuff up, please take your bloviating elsewhere. 

[Renegade7]

Seriously...anyone that determined to kill little kids or try to stop replacement theory is going to do so with what they can get their hands on, preferably the most efficient weapon they can get.

 

This should be less about banning the most common weapons being used to do it and more focused on stopping those people from getting any gun in the first place.  Because if they have to they will do it with a handgun in each hand and couple reload clips on their waist.

[Corcaigh]

3 hours ago, JCB said:

Disappointed in this thread. There was a live opportunity to veer off into a long discussion of dildo fetishes.

 

It's never too late.

[Spaceman Spiff]

1 hour ago, Llevron said:

Never too late! 

 

Hey! We need you! @Spaceman Spiff

Only got a dildo fetish cause you wouldn’t shut the **** up about it, it’s really your fault. 

[86 Snyder]

11 minutes ago, The Almighty Buzz said:

 

No one has said what you are trying to spin their posts as saying.  Honest conversation is a two way street.  If you're gonna make stuff up, please take your bloviating elsewhere. 

I really don’t care if what I posted is unpopular or I’m out-numbered or if you like it or not.

 

What are the reasons to not ban AR-15s?

 

~It could affect farmers with coyotes
 

what else?

 

Reasons to ban AR-15s:

 

~Less school kids die

 

Im interested to hear what additional reasons to NOT ban them justify the reason TO ban them.
 

 

10 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

Seriously...anyone that determined to kill little kids or try to stop replacement theory is going to do so with what they can get their hands on, preferably the most efficient weapon they can get.

 

This should be less about banning the most common weapons being used to do it and more focused on stopping those people from getting any gun in the first place.  Because if they have to they will do it with a handgun in each hand and couple reload clips on their waist.

No, it should be both.

 

Why wouldn’t you want that psycho you described to have diminished capability?  Killing fewer people is a better outcome than killing more.

[tshile]

28 minutes ago, 86 Snyder said:

“Only 3%”

 

So there’s an acceptable number of kids killed in schools that doesn’t require banning assault rifles.  Got it.

 

don’t be an asshole. 
 

[86 Snyder]

2 minutes ago, tshile said:

 

don’t be an asshole. 
 

Amazing reply.  Really great solutions you’re offering.

[tshile]

16 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

This should be less about banning the most common weapons being used to do it and more focused on stopping those people from getting any gun in the first place.  Because if they have to they will do it with a handgun in each hand and couple reload clips on their waist.

Yeah and it’s not like 15+ capacity handguns are unique and rare. 
 

The point is, though, different problems require different solutions. 
 

i don’t know that there is any win to be had in picking one over the other to tackle. I think you just have to accept, and make it a point, that they are different problems searching for different solutions. 
 

 

[Renegade7]

High capacity magazines might happen (as in not a 0%), but trying to get an assault weapon ban is a waste of GD time and oxygen.  

 

I get the frustration, but if that's the starting point in the negotiation from the White House, the "coming to take our guns" crowd jus won again and now Biden might not get any if his other gun control proposals passed at all.

 

This is like trying to drop heat of the moment nuclear charges on Zimmerman when all they had to do was put him in jail for killing Martin.

 

 

Edited June 3, 2022 by Renegade7

[tshile]

Just now, 86 Snyder said:

Amazing reply.  Really great solutions you’re offering.

Actually I’ve been involved in this thread since it was created and throughout its entire existence

 

You on the other hand have just shown up and are seemingly here to just lecture everyone else (who have, for the most part, been involved in this thread since it was started and throughout) with the most basic of ideas and with nothing to back any of it up. 
 

and now you want to twist my words to make me sound like a callus piece of **** who doesn’t care about kids when the reality is it’s the most important aspect of all of this to me. 
 

You’re apparently just a basic person. I feel bad for you. The world must be difficult. 

[Corcaigh]

50 minutes ago, tshile said:

the category that includes guns sometimes referred to as “assault weapons” – were involved in 3% of firearm murders

 

(so. Banning assault weapons accounts for 3% of murders. Know what you’re championing )

 

 

 

Doing what we can to reduce the number of massacres in schools, supermarkets and places of worship would be a nice start. Only 3% is in part because of high levels of gang violence in certain cities. Call me callous but that's less of a concern.

 

Violence within families is a huge concern. I wonder how many people having one or more gun in their home for safety understand that it doubles the risk of their death by homicide. And suicide rates are way higher too.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 3, 2022 by Corcaigh

[TheGreatBuzz]

14 minutes ago, 86 Snyder said:

Im interested to hear

 

I'm getting the impression you have your mind made up and don't really care to hear anything other than your own beliefs.

 

 

14 minutes ago, 86 Snyder said:

No, it should be both.

 

Oh ****!  I wish you had said this earlier.  So many lives would have been saved!!  86 Snyder has solved gun control!  

 

Mods, please close this thread.  Obviously nothing more needs to be said.  @86 Snyder can you pop on over to the climate change thread?  Maybe you can solve that tonight also.

Edited June 3, 2022 by The Almighty Buzz

[Renegade7]

10 minutes ago, 86 Snyder said:

No, it should be both.

 

Why wouldn’t you want that psycho you described to have diminished capability?  Killing fewer people is a better outcome than killing more.

 

Huh?

 

I want that psycho to not have a gun at all (I've said this multiple times in this and other threads, especially lately), while everyone else that isn't a psycho doesn't get punished for what he did.

[redskins59]

You need to pass as many laws as possible, even small ones.  They will add up to reduce gun deaths.  If it means focusing on mental health, so be it.

21 to buy weapons will go a long way.  

Need to start somewhere. 

Gun deaths will continue, so you can try to add more laws in the future. 

Maybe assault weapons ban in the future, but what will pass this  senate?  Start there.

 

 

[Renegade7]

9 minutes ago, tshile said:

Yeah and it’s not like 15+ capacity handguns are unique and rare. 
 

The point is, though, different problems require different solutions. 
 

i don’t know that there is any win to be had in picking one over the other to tackle. I think you just have to accept, and make it a point, that they are different problems searching for different solutions. 

 

Yea, it does seem like one of the favorite passtimes of anti gun control folks is to point out how one solution won't stop a certain problem or all of them.

 

I know not everyone understands layers of security, but I'm not convinced everyone wants to either.  There's no silver bullet here, but it all adds it.

[86 Snyder]

1 minute ago, tshile said:

Actually I’ve been involved in this thread since it was created and throughout its entire existence

 

You on the other hand have just shown up and are seemingly here to just lecture everyone else (who have, for the most part, been involved in this thread since it was started and throughout) with the most basic of ideas and with nothing to back any of it up. 
 

and now you want to twist my words to make me sound like a callus piece of **** who doesn’t care about kids when the reality is it’s the most important aspect of all of this to me. 
 

You’re apparently just a basic person. I feel bad for you. The world must be difficult. 

That’s fantastic.  I’m not reading 345 pages to figure out the nuances of your position and I don’t see a rule anywhere that says I can’t jump in to comment.  I’m responding to your recent posts.

 

Lets simplify things.

 

I’m sure you and everyone else in the thread are very pro kid life.  Why shouldn’t we ban the type guns used in Sandy Hook, Parkland, and Uvalde?  What benefit outweighs the costs?

5 minutes ago, The Almighty Buzz said:

 

I'm getting the impression you have your mind made up and don't really care to hear anything other than your own beliefs.

 

 

 

Oh ****!  I wish you had said this earlier.  So many lives would have been saved!!  86 Snyder has solved gun control!  

 

Mods, please close this thread.  Obviously nothing more needs to be said.  @86 Snyder can you pop on over to the climate change thread?  Maybe you can solve that tonight also.

Feel free to answer the question.

 

Can’t solve climate change or gun control until the majority of people in power agree it’s a problem.

[tshile]

8 minutes ago, Corcaigh said:

Only 3% is in part because of high levels of gang violence in certain cities. Call me callous but that's less of a concern.

Yup. 
 

but remember the other day the Brady Bill was being discussed and people threw around graphs and ideas that basically said:

AWB expires, increase in gun violence

 

but if it’s only 3% then the AWB didn’t have much to do with that, did it?

 

if I had to guess, the #1 reason we have more violence is because our socioeconomic spectrum has gotten wider, but only cause the rich people on one end have pulled miles ahead of everyone else. 
 

We don’t take care of ourselves - as in our people. Healthcare, education, living conditions, income, etc. 

 

i don’t think the “mental health” thing is or should be about having some disorder or need specific types of medication. 
 

our children are killing themselves at a higher rate than ever. Young men seem to be withdrawing from society like never before seen (college admissions, people that fled to join isis or other causes, etc.) 

 

for all the positives the last 30 years have brought, there’s a lot of negatives we’re starting to see and not much is being done about them. 
 

i believe over the same time the AWB was alive, we had things like 3 strikes laws, incredibly harsh sentences for drugs and guns, broken window policy, and host of other “tough on crime” stuff

 

and I’m not saying all those were good or we should go back to them or anything, just that here’s a hell of a lot that’s gone on over the last 30 years. 
 

and if guns “typically categorized as assault weapons” are making up 3% of gun deaths, then I don’t think the AWB expiring has much more than 3% to do with it…

 

Although assault weapons are probably the most dangerous aspect of gun culture and furthering gun culture so I won’t argue they don’t matter at all. 
 

and I’m less concerned about general gun violence too. Mostly because it doesn’t exist where I live. It’s not that I don’t care about baltimore/Chicago/etc. it’s just… that’s on them. They need to pass their own stuff and run their own area. I’m not interested in telling them what to or not to do. I support their quest to fix their problems but I won’t pretend to know the answers for them (outside thinking the socioeconomic have a lot to do with it - hard to be on the streets shooting other drug dealers if you got a 8-5 office job and kids to tend to at night)

[TheGreatBuzz]

2 minutes ago, 86 Snyder said:

I’m not reading 345 pages

 

2 minutes ago, 86 Snyder said:

Feel free to answer the question

 

You'll see the latter by doing the former.  Those who actually have a vested interest in this topic have been in it for a while.  If you just want to do drive-by hot takes, then don't expect the rest of us to restate things for you that have already been said 1,000 times.

[86 Snyder]

5 minutes ago, The Almighty Buzz said:

 

 

You'll see the latter by doing the former.  Those who actually have a vested interest in this topic have been in it for a while.  If you just want to do drive-by hot takes, then don't expect the rest of us to restate things for you that have already been said 1,000 times.

Then since you won’t engage, guess you’ll have to suffer my very hot takes such as “ban guns people don’t need that are frequently used to shoot up schools”.

[TheGreatBuzz]

10 minutes ago, 86 Snyder said:

Then since you won’t engage, guess you’ll have to suffer my very hot takes such as “ban guns people don’t need that are frequently used to shoot up schools”.

 

And I'll respond with hot takes such as "good luck with that.  We have the 2nd amendment.  We have the courts.  We are already in more homes than college degrees are.  We aren't going anywhere.  Go kick rocks."  

 

* also, if you bothered to read the thread at all, you would know if this is my real position or not.

Edited June 3, 2022 by The Almighty Buzz
Forgot a line.