The Gun Control Debate Thread

[GoCommiesGo]

19 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

Yeah good point. That's a whole new can of worms that arming teachers will open: culpability.

 

If a student steals the gun and shoots another student, is the teacher responsible? In an active shooter situation would the teacher be responsible for collateral damage from discharging their weapon?

 

How much would the fact that they don't have training like military or LE play into how that's decided? Would they get qualified immunity if they get enough training? How much training is enough? Who's going to pay for the training? When are they going to be able to do the training?

 

The whole idea is just complete ****ing clown shoes.

 

On top of the culpability of action, what about inaction? Would the teacher be responsible if they didn't act? What's the threshold of risk that they have to identify before they must act? I could keep going on about this, I hate it so much. 

 

My wife is a middle school science teacher, she has never handled a gun before. But, somewhere some jackass thinks she should get a gun to protect her students. Just **** right off. 

[Renegade7]

We haven't even gotten to the possibility of the teacher snapping and being the shooter themselves, especially considering the amount of stress so many of them are under.  Then what?

[purbeast]

1 hour ago, GoCommiesGo said:

 

I think most people know it's a terrible idea, but you get a loud enough minority and it drowns the majority out. 

I think that people with more than half a brain realize how ****ing stupid this idea is and it's so outrageous that they just laugh it off and don't even need to engage because of just how ****ing stupid it is.

[GoCommiesGo]

26 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

We haven't even gotten to the possibility of the teacher snapping and being the shooter themselves, especially considering the amount of stress so many of them are under.  Then what?

 

We obviously will need more good guys with guns. Arm, the students. 

 

 

[CobraCommander]

13 minutes ago, GoCommiesGo said:

 

We obviously will need more good guys with guns. Arm, the students. 

 

 

It's the only logical step in an arms race. 

[Dan T.]

2 hours ago, Dont Taze Me Bro said:

 

Over an almost 25 year period?  Not hardly.  

I didn't know they went bad over time.  What's the expiration date on them?

 

 

Edited June 2, 2022 by Dan T.

[tshile]

3 minutes ago, Dan T. said:

 

I didn't know they went bad over time.  What's the expiration date on them?

Well, your dumb comment aside, they actually will go bad if you don’t take care of them. 
 

This is why gun control ideas from people like you are usually eye roll worthy. You don’t even attempt to try to understand the thing you want significant legislation on. 
 

It’s hard to find a bigger, louder group of people that want something while happily announcing they’ve put zero effort into understanding any of it. 

[Dan T.]

 

2 hours ago, The Almighty Buzz said:

 

Not really.  I don't know specifically what he has but you could easily have 5 different guns that serve 5 different purposes.  

 

 

1. Kill intruders.

2. Shoot bears.

3. Keep unlocked for the kids to use.

4. Shoot TV when CNN comes on.

5. Take to PTA meetings.

 

 

 

 

Edited June 2, 2022 by Dan T.

[Larry]

Just now, tshile said:

Well, your dumb comment aside, they actually will go bad if you don’t take care of them. 
 

This is why gun control ideas from people like you are usually eye roll worthy. You don’t even attempt to try to understand the thing you want significant legislation on. 
 

It’s hard to find a bigger, louder group of people that want something while happily announcing they’ve put zero effort into understanding any of it. 

 

How much effort did you put into understanding the point he actually made, before making bombastic pronouncements about the ignorance that you think you caught him in?  

 

Might want to mount a mirror next to that post.  

[Dan T.]

 

 

 

4 minutes ago, tshile said:

Well, your dumb comment aside, they actually will go bad if you don’t take care of them. 
 

This is why gun control ideas from people like you are usually eye roll worthy. You don’t even attempt to try to understand the thing you want significant legislation on. 
 

It’s hard to find a bigger, louder group of people that want something while happily announcing they’ve put zero effort into understanding any of it. 

 

I understand it better than you might realize, chief.  I understand how ingrained the gun culture is among segments of society.  How normal it is for someone to think they need a cabinet full of guns for "different purposes."  Which gets to the root of the problem of guns in America. But thanks for your input.

 

 

 

[tshile]

Just now, Larry said:

 

How much effort did you put into understanding the point he actually made, before making bombastic pronouncements about the ignorance that you think you caught him in?  

 

Might want to mount a mirror next to that post.  

Um. I went back and read the chain of posters.  Cause when you quote people it gives you a little button you can go back directly to the post they quoted. And you can keep doing that so you can follow the conversation 

 

You’re the one the needs a mirror 😂 

Cause you don’t understand basic forum functionality on a forum you frequent daily 😂 

Just now, Dan T. said:

 

 

 

 

I understand it better than you might realize, chief.  I understand how ingrained the gun culture is among segments of society.  How normal it is for someone to think they need a cabinet full of guns for "different purposes."  Which gets to the root of the problem of guns in America. But thanks for your input.

 

 

 

“Different purposes” 😂 

 

Yeah man you’ve got a great understanding

[GoCommiesGo]

1 minute ago, tshile said:

Well, your dumb comment aside, they actually will go bad if you don’t take care of them. 
 

This is why gun control ideas from people like you are usually eye roll worthy. You don’t even attempt to try to understand the thing you want significant legislation on. 
 

It’s hard to find a bigger, louder group of people that want something while happily announcing they’ve put zero effort into understanding any of it. 

 

I'm not a gun or 2nd amendment advocate. But, I am someone who has hunted, done target shooting and spent substantial time in rural parts of WV with people who are. 

 

You will never get that group onboard with any meaningful legislation and change if you don't take the time to understand their interest. People who use the word ban and restrict are automatically going to be tuned out. They will especially tune out anyone who can't show some general understanding of firearms. 

 

Gun culture is real, and it's not always a bad thing. I know a lot of people who are exceptionally safe, and knowledgeable. I learned to hunt and shoot in WV on my uncles farm, he had been using guns for 40 years, his father before him and so on. It's ingrained in their day to day lives. 

 

Meaningful change has to happen but the people who want the change have to have a basic understanding of what they are trying to change. 

 

Institute a waiting period on all firearms. 

 

Require a comprehensive background check on all purchases. 

 

Require safety classes and continuing certifications.  

[Dont Taze Me Bro]

15 minutes ago, Dan T. said:

I didn't know they went bad over time.  What's the expiration date on them?

 

 

 

6/31/22 on one of them

[Larry]

I'm shocked. Point out bombastic claims of imagined ignorance, and the result is .... bombastic claims of imagined ignorance, a second time. 
 

[Dan T.]

9 minutes ago, tshile said:

“Different purposes” 😂 

 

Yeah man you’ve got a great understanding

 

"Different purposes" was a direct quote from gun owner Almighty Buzz's post.

 

 

 

Edited June 2, 2022 by Dan T.

[tshile]

1 minute ago, GoCommiesGo said:

You will never get that group onboard with any meaningful legislation and change if you don't take the time to understand their interest

I know. I said as much a week ago. You won’t get buy in from the people you need buy in from, when the loudest part of what you say is “I don’t understand anything about guns, or you”
 

just look what happens when a handful of people that actually have (at least) a practical understanding of these things, try to explain what was wrong with the Brady bill and what would make it better while also getting rid of the dumb (and most criticized) portions. It happens in the tgis thread in the aftermath of most of the bigger shootings

 

 

Anyways. If the subject was global warming, they’d be the guy walking in with a handful of snow going “but it’s snowing in April”

[Dan T.]

1 minute ago, Dont Taze Me Bro said:

 

6/31/22 on one of them

 

They can last beyond the expiration date.  Sniff the barrel to see if it smells funny,

[mistertim]

9 minutes ago, tshile said:

I know. I said as much a week ago. You won’t get buy in from the people you need buy in from, when the loudest part of what you say is “I don’t understand anything about guns, or you”
 

just look what happens when a handful of people that actually have (at least) a practical understanding of these things, try to explain what was wrong with the Brady bill and what would make it better while also getting rid of the dumb (and most criticized) portions. It happens in the tgis thread in the aftermath of most of the bigger shootings

 

 

Anyways. If the subject was global warming, they’d be the guy walking in with a handful of snow going “but it’s snowing in April”

 

I get where you're coming from and I agree in principle, but in reality it won't make any difference. I've owned several guns in the past, including an AR-15, so I can speak knowledgably about it with gun people.

 

But at the end of the day it doesn't matter because as soon as they hear anything about restrictions of any kind they shut down and basically start screaming, regardless of whether you're a complete noob who's never held a gun or a certified NRA instructor who owns a vault full of them.

 

It's akin to the idea of trying to understand what drives and motivates Trump voters in an effort to persuade them to your side. It doesn't matter. You can be understanding or empathetic till you're blue in the face and they'll still be ****heads who just love Trump because he's also a ****head and shut down as soon as you say anything counter to Trump dogma.

Edited June 2, 2022 by mistertim

[Renegade7]

1 hour ago, GoCommiesGo said:

 

We obviously will need more good guys with guns. Arm, the students. 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, CobraCommander said:

It's the only logical step in an arms race. 

 

Yes, yes, and when it's the student that's the shooter, already in the school with the gun, the teacher and student can shoot each other canceling each other out, or vice versa.

 

Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness for everyone!

 

Gun manufacturers will be pleased...

 

 

 

[tshile]

9 minutes ago, GoCommiesGo said:

 

Meaningful change has to happen but the people who want the change have to have a basic understanding of what they are trying to change. 

See if love to see a couple people who actually understand this stuff in depth, to break down this velocity/caliber/etc stuff. 
 

Banning all semiautomatic is probably not going to happen. That’s… thats a big move especially considering how gun control has been getting its ass kicked in court for 2 decades now. I mean if you want to actually talk about trending gun control, the reality is we’re probably going to have about half the country have permitless concealed carry 6 years from now. That’s…. That’s the opposite of moving in the direction of more gun control. So banning semi automatic weapons is… I mean that’s such a laughably huge reach considering the last 20 years 

 

so that leaves you with rate of fire, caliber, muzzle velocity, etc. 

 

Not trying to be a jerk but I don’t really see much of a difference between walking through a place with a ar15 and a handgun. I’m not sold changing magazines matters much (even though I believe it’s the most common point of failure?), the aim is better with a riffle, but I just don’t see it making much of a difference

 

I guess I could see where someone would bet better, with little to no practice, with a rifle than with a handgun.

 

Ar15 is not what I would pick to go through a building. It’s not what I would pick to defend myself against someone going through a building. It’s an incredibly common gun and if I had to guess its the one most accessible and that people have the most experience with, compared to any other platform. I’m reasonably confident almost everyone I’ve encountered that owns guns, owns one of these. 
 

But to me its greatest advantages are outside of close quarters stuff. 

[GoCommiesGo]

3 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

I get where you're coming from and I agree in principle, but in reality it won't make any difference. I've owned several guns in the past, including an AR-15, so I can speak knowledgably about it with gun people.

 

But at the end of the day it doesn't matter because as soon as they hear anything about restrictions of any kind they shut down and basically start screaming, regardless of whether you're a complete noob who's never held a gun or a certified NRA instructor who owns a vault full of them.

 

It's akin to the idea of trying to understand what drives and motivates Trump voters in an effort to persuade them to your side. It doesn't matter. You can be understanding or empathetic till you're blue in the face and they'll still be ****heads who just love Trump because he's also a ****head and shut down as soon as you say anything counter to Trump dogma.

 

Messaging by gun reform groups is terrible. It shouldn't start with ban or restrict, you've lost a large group right there. 

 

It's got to be sold as I'm not coming to take your things. I want to make sure that the only the right people have access. Sure, you may have to wait longer, but that's only so we can make sure to stop the bad people. Sure, you may need to take a class, but don't you want to make sure that only the qualified people have access? Sure, may need a background check. You're not a criminal right, you shouldn't be worried. 

 

Messaging is so important. 

[tshile]

6 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

I get where you're coming from and I agree in principle, but in reality it won't make any difference. I've owned several guns in the past, including an AR-15, so I can speak knowledgably about it with gun people.

 

But at the end of the day it doesn't matter because as soon as they hear anything about restrictions of any kind they shut down and basically start screaming, regardless of whether you're a complete noob who's never held a gun or a certified NRA instructor who owns a vault full of them.

 

It's akin to the idea of trying to understand what drives and motivates Trump voters in an effort to persuade them to your side. It doesn't matter. You can be understanding or empathetic till you're blue in the face and they'll still be ****heads who just love Trump because he's also a ****head and shut down as soon as you say anything counter to Trump dogma.

There’s several gun owners in this thread alone that aren’t like that. 
 

one of the biggest trump supporters I personally know, thinks ar15’s should be outright banned and confiscated. 
 

Yes those people you describe exist. 
 

But don’t use them as an excuse for not having a basic understanding of the thing you want to lecture everyone on. (Not you specifically)

[Renegade7]

32 minutes ago, tshile said:

 

It’s hard to find a bigger, louder group of people that want something while happily announcing they’ve put zero effort into understanding any of it. 

 

It sucks because too many gun owners or even experts, not saying you, stop at jus pointing this out versus correcting the matter in attempt to find a middle ground.

 

I'm convinced there's a basic fear that helping folks that are pushing the hardest for gun control better understand what they are doing will increase the chances of something actually passing, so they scream at the ignorance while yelling no one will take their guns instead.

 

Vicious cycle that again seems to be going nowhere...

[GoCommiesGo]

1 minute ago, tshile said:

See if love to see a couple people who actually understand this stuff in depth, to break down this velocity/caliber/etc stuff. 
 

Banning all semiautomatic is probably not going to happen. That’s… thats a big move especially considering how gun control has been getting its ass kicked in court for 2 decades now. I mean if you want to actually talk about trending gun control, the reality is we’re probably going to have about half the country have permitless concealed carry 6 years from now. That’s…. That’s the opposite of moving in the direction of more gun control. So banning semi automatic weapons is… I mean that’s such a laughably huge reach considering the last 20 years 

 

so that leaves you with rate of fire, caliber, muzzle velocity, etc. 

 

 

Huge part of the issue is that the current Supreme Court is not going to ban things. They are going to overturn the concealed carry in NYC soon. People need to be realistic about what they can get. You're not getting a ban on anything, not gun type, not fire rate or magazine capacity. It's not going to happen, you need to move on to things you can actually put in place to make a positive change.  

 

Quote

Not trying to be a jerk but I don’t really see much of a difference between walking through a place with a ar15 and a handgun. I’m not sold changing magazines matters much (even though I believe it’s the most common point of failure?), the aim is better with a riffle, but I just don’t see it making much of a difference

 

I guess I could see where someone would bet better, with little to no practice, with a rifle than with a handgun.

 

Ar15 is not what I would pick to go through a building. It’s not what I would pick to defend myself against someone going through a building. It’s an incredibly common gun and if I had to guess its the one most accessible and that people have the most experience with, compared to any other platform. I’m reasonably confident almost everyone I’ve encountered that owns guns, owns one of these. 
 

But to me its greatest advantages are outside of close quarters stuff. 

 

Honestly, I'm shocked people are grabbing semi auto shotguns and throwing on a drum magazine going into buildings. The whole thing is so stupid, I'm just at my wits end on this. The only conclusion I've come to is that we aren't going to get any meaningful reform because both sides are to obstinate on what they want, and they can't move either way. 

 

 

[tshile]

24 minutes ago, Dan T. said:

 

"Different purposes" was a direct quote from gun owner Almighty Buzz's post.

 

 

 

Is this where you try to pretend you weren’t mocking the phrase even though it’s quite clear that’s what you were doing 😂 

 

 

oh wait you know so much I guess I should have know better