HNGN: Planned Parenthood's Top Doctor Caught On Video Discussing The Sale Of Aborted Fetus Body Parts

[Zguy28]

He's the founding member of ZLM - Zygote Lives Matter. So outside of that, he could care less about life. Seriously, he's indicative of most of that crowd. "Save the babies!!! ....don't make me pay for 'em or for saving the lives of women who die during back alley abortions...or for anything really."

The back alley abortion argument is so weak its insulting. Its like saying "Let's legalize and regulate selective murder of adults also because you know, some people die in back alley muggings."

[The Evil Genius]

The back alley abortion argument is so weak its insulting. Its like saying "Let's legalize and regulate selective murder of adults also because you know, some people die in back alley muggings."

 

While I agree with your comment, there is a well storied history (albeit hard to quantify) of them happening when abortions weren't legal. Some as late as the early 1970's.

 

So it may not be that much of a leap. But I suspect people will just go north to Canada if they value their health (and can afford the cost of travel) should it ever come to that situation again. Which it won't.

[Predicto]

The back alley abortion argument is so weak its insulting. Its like saying "Let's legalize and regulate selective murder of adults also because you know, some people die in back alley muggings."

 

 

It's not insulting if you don't come from the starting point that a fetus is a human being.  If you don't, then it becomes a reasonable argument.

 

It's all about the initial starting point.  

[DogofWar1]

It's not insulting if you don't come from the starting point that a fetus is a human being.  If you don't, then it becomes a reasonable argument.

 

It's all about the initial starting point.  

 

Right.  Adding to that, beyond the moral arguments, prior to Roe v. Wade, if someone got a back alley abortion where abortion was illegal, the argument "well it's illegal anyway they shouldn't be doing it" could have been made and wouldn't have been entirely without merit.  Today, legally, abortion is legal.  The moral arguments stemming from starting points will be what they are and have been, but if procuring abortion services is so hard to a woman that she has to resort to a back alley abortion, it demonstrates a very real problem, since we now have to approach the issue from the perspective that abortion is legal, and women have a right to not be excessively burdened in their pursuit of an abortion.

[twa]

But bro, wouldn't you say that you express a disregard for life far more often than most any other poster on this board.

 

to address that we would need to delve into the difference between innocents and those that need killing....a distraction

 

I support the sale of organs as well .....despite it being unpleasant 

[Fred Jones]

You could just start with preventing all college age men from having sexual relations.  After this is accomplished, add high school age to the prohibition.

 

Once that is done, find out the age that people start being hypocrites because they go from sex crazed young, to righteous older.  Once that age is determined, well, prevent those from having sex as well.

 

This solves most of the problem of abortion, since no one is getting pregnant until they reach a certain age to make better life decisions.

 

People don't have to worry about when life actually starts.  People don't have to judge others in this particular matter any more.  And, women can simply say no much better when they are older.  Women don't have to worry about people telling what to do with their bodies, and just getting in their personal business.

 

Lastly, the couple right wing wackos that use violence will have to go to some other endeavor as abortion clinics will no longer have to be blown up or shot up.

 

Simple.

[twa]

It's not insulting if you don't come from the starting point that a fetus is a human being.  If you don't, then it becomes a reasonable argument.

 

It's all about the initial starting point.  

 

Certainly if we ignore society's supposed obligation to human life.

 

Of course the obligation gets obscured if we deem them not a person,human or a life....but that way leads where? (certainly not the first time in our history eh?)

 

What other being could they be? 

[Predicto]

Certainly if we ignore society's supposed obligation to human life.

 

Of course the obligation gets obscured if we deem them not a person,human or a life....but that way leads where? (certainly not the first time in our history eh?)

 

What other being could they be? 

 

 

The argument is that the fetus may potentially develop into human being someday, but it currently is a collection of cells contained in and part of the body of an autonomous woman.

 

You should remember this from the last thread where you tried to pretend that the question of what is a "human being" was a settled issue.   And the one before that.  And the one before that.

[twa]

The argument is that the fetus may potentially develop into human being someday,

 

rather piss poor argument...there is no may unless it is killed or dies......science denier 

[Predicto]

rather piss poor argument...there is no may unless it is killed or dies......science denier 

 

 

I don't pretend that there is a definitive "scientific" answer to this difficult, non-scientific, question of philosophy and morality that good people have struggled with for decades.   You do.  

.     

[twa]

pray tell what else may it turn into?

 

bad enough folk deny what it is, now ya wanna deny what it clearly will be as well?  

[The Sisko]

pray tell what else may it turn into?

bad enough folk deny what it is, now ya wanna deny what it clearly will be as well?

A miscarriage or still birth. The former happens in about 20% of known pregnancies. You gonna call officer friendly to do a murder investigation for all of those? Because if they're people it's possibly murder.What about the unknown pregnancies? We can't ignore the wanton (possible) murder of those "people" too.

[twa]

A miscarriage or still birth. The former happens in about 20% of known pregnancies. You gonna call officer friendly to do a murder investigation for all of those? Because if they're people it's possibly murder.What about the unknown pregnancies? We can't ignore the wanton (possible) murder of those "people" too.

 

that is not turning into  ....other than a dead human being(which is a state we all find ourselves in eventually)

nor is it murder w/o a great deal more

[chipwhich]

A miscarriage or still birth. The former happens in about 20% of known pregnancies. You gonna call officer friendly to do a murder investigation for all of those? Because if they're people it's possibly murder.What about the unknown pregnancies? We can't ignore the wanton (possible) murder of those "people" too.

 

Women across America giving you a high five for equating their miscarriage to an abortion.  Classy.

[DogofWar1]

Can we change the thread title?  If you're cleared in Texas on the issue by a Republican DA, and they even charge the other guys for their deceptive editing, I think we can put the "sale" part of "discussing the sale of aborted fetus body parts" to bed.  It doesn't get too much more conclusive than that.

 

Unless we're hoping for those godless heathens in CA to come through.

[twa]

well since they were charged with purchasing human remains it seems there was some selling.

 

they were not charged with editing

[The Sisko]

Women across America giving you a high five for equating their miscarriage to an abortion.  Classy.

Hey, don't thank me. That's not my reasoning. Thank the anti-abortion crowd.

 

 

For pregnant women, two sets of rights in one body A new wave of fetal-protection measures creates a collision in American law — and exposes a moral conundrum

...Within the last five years, pregnant women have been arrested under fetal-harm statutes after falling down the stairs and driving with blood-alcohol levels of just half the legal limit. Other women have been forced against their will to undergo caesarean sections, or spend months on bed rest. The laws can affect people well beyond the woman herself, as in the recent Texas case of Marlise Muñoz, kept on life support for two months for the purpose of saving her fetus, despite her family’s wishes that she be allowed to die. In Wisconsin last summer, a pregnant woman named Alicia Beltran was taken to court in handcuffs after refusing to take an anti-addiction drug for a painkiller habit she had already kicked on her own. The court initially ignored her requests for a lawyer, but appointed a legal guardian for her 14-week-old fetus.

Lawyer and activist Lynn Paltrow, who is helping represent Beltran in a suit against several officials, coauthored a recent paper cataloging such cases and says she has found more than 700 instances since 1973 of women arrested, detained, or subjected to forced medical interventions because of issues related to their pregnancies. She is part of a group of legal scholars who are starting to raise the alarm about the breadth and meaning of what they see as a largely unappreciated shift in American law.

“What it means is that all fertile women are responsible for knowing at every single moment whether they’re pregnant,” says Paltrow, founder and executive director of the National Advocates for Pregnant Women. “Because at that moment an entirely different legal system comes into play.”

 

 

[The Evil Genius]

well since they were charged with purchasing human remains it seems there was some selling.

 

they were not charged with editing

 

Not necessarily. Under Texas statute (http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/txstatutes/PE/10/48/48.02), Daleiden would have violated Texas Penal Code § 48.02 if he or she "knowingly or intentionally offers to buy, offers to sell, acquires, receives, sells, or otherwise transfers any human organ for valuable consideration". It's a violation is his case because part C of the code isn't being met.

 

Daleiden et al would not have had to actually have to go through with the purchase to be charged. 

[twa]

Yes, if they were smarter they would have just offered compensation for expenses. ....like the folk really purchasing human remains. 

[The Evil Genius]

Yes, if they were smarter they would have just offered compensation for expenses. ....like the folk really purchasing human remains. 

 

True. Of course, not creating fake California driver licenses to impersonate biotechnology representatives would have been smart too. Then again, no one saying either of these two are smart.

[Bliz]

True. Of course, not creating fake California driver licenses to impersonate biotechnology representatives would have been smart too. Then again, no one saying either of these two are smart.

 

Which reminds me, I'm also really annoyed by the attempt to cloak themselves in the mantle of investigative journalists.  A defense they no doubt picked up from the douche behind the acorn videos.

 

 

A statement released on behalf of Daleiden said he used the "same undercover techniques that investigative journalists have used for decades in exercising our First Amendment rights to freedom of speech and of the press, and follows all applicable laws."

 

http://www.cnn.com/2016/01/25/politics/planned-parenthood-activists-indicted/index.html

 

Uhm, no.

 

Legitimate investigative journalists do not use the "undercover techniques" of committing crimes or lying about their identities in an attempt to entrap the subjects of an expose.  Assuming they don't want to get fired, that is.  They find sources, gather facts, interview people, and report.  That's what an investigative journalist would have done here.  They would have tried to find someone at PP willing to blow the whistle on these practices or alleged practices, and made them either go on the record or provide the documents to prove it.

[twa]

they supposedly did get employees/whistle blowers

 

I'm good with a jury determining if it was investigative journalism or a crime. ...more news cycles

[The Evil Genius]

they supposedly did get employees/whistle blowers

 

 

 

I think not. The lack of any charges against PP resulting from their "sting" confirms that.

[PleaseBlitz]

Daleiden's lawyers are idiots.  Here is part of their statement that comes immediately after what Bliz just posted:

 

 

 

the Center for Medical Progress said it “uses the same undercover techniques that investigative journalists have used for decades in exercising our First Amendment rights to freedom of speech and of the press, and follows all applicable laws. We respect the processes of the Harris County District Attorney, and note that buying fetal tissue requires a seller as well.

 

They did not buy any fetal tissue.  They OFFERED to buy fetal tissue.  OFFERING to buy ANYTHING does not require a seller.

 

I could walk outside my building in DC and ask the first person i see for drugs.  That is OFFERING to buy drugs.  The person i ask is not a seller just because I ask.

[twa]

I think not. The lack of any charges against PP resulting from their "sting" confirms that.

 

seems faulty logic