CrypticVillain Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 Well... are they? I've been debating with people all week about Jordan vs. Kobe. vs. Lebron. (Please, miss me with all that, "Why can't we just enjoy their respective performances for what it is" non-sense. That's not how it works in sports lol) I see the teams that Kobe and Jordan rocked with, and I'm looking at the 2007 and 2015 Cleveland rosters that Lebron has. I'm sorry, but they don't compare. Yet, Lebron has his team tied against one of the best basketball teams we've seen perform during the regular season in years. I'm just saying, I think when discussing players individually, I think championships are used a bit too much in the discussion. I heard the funniest thing a couple of weeks ago. It was a debate on which QB deserved to be payed more, Russel Wilson or Andrew Luck? Again, look at the team that Wilson had around him, and the team Luck has, decent players. It's a reason that they keep getting smacked by New England in the playoffs (and it's not the balls) Even with that, for the most part, football judges talent pretty fairly among consensuses. People say Marino is better than Troy Aikman despite the 0 to 3 Super Bowls. Even now, people say that Aaron Rodgers is the best QB in the league. I'm not saying rings shouldn't be factored, I'm just saying let's at least be reasonable when discussing player vs player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoony Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 I think they are to a certain extent. But a lot depends on the position and the sport For an NFL QB, I do think it should be part of the discussion. Not all of it, but part of it. Best NFL Left Tackle? Yah, who cares how many superbowls. I wish I still watched the NBA so I could have a Lebron -vs- Jordan debate. But I don't. But that said, I suspect Lebron is probably better. I think Michael Jordan, while certainly great, is probably the most over-rated athlete in the history of sports. He was largely a cog in a huge marketing machine that unfolded on a generation of kids who were not immune to it, like the kids of today are. Was he a bum? Of course not, he was a great basketball player. But people talk about him like he was God... not even close. The year he retired from the Bulls that Team made the playoffs easily and took a stacked Knicks Team to 7 games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattFancy Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 I think people use championships as a way to think they know more than they really do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsburySkinsFan Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 Championships are what the game is about..... Which is why this banner is a sad memorial, and not a symbol of pride. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lombardi's_kid_brother Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 Championships are fairly arbitrary. American style playoffs are fun spectacles, but the idea that they determine "the best team" is silly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC9 Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 In terms of grading out players, championships matter a little bit... especially depending on what the discussion is (greatest player, most clutch player, best player at _____, etc.). In terms of grading out teams, they absolutely matter. American style playoffs are fun spectacles, but the idea that they determine "the best team" is silly. THAT would actually be an outstanding discussion to have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrypticVillain Posted June 12, 2015 Author Share Posted June 12, 2015 The year he retired from the Bulls that Team made the playoffs easily and took a stacked Knicks Team to 7 games. I try to tell people that all the time, they completely dismiss it. lol As far as the first part of your post about NFL QB's I agree, to an extent. I just don't think though that because Wilson has been in two Super Bowls that he should be viewed on the level as Andrew Luck. Nor should Marino and Aikman be on the same level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riggo-toni Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 If it hadn't been for Desmond Howard, everyone would be saying Favre could never win the big one (and let's face it -he was indeed a bigtime choker). Agree w/Zoony about Jordan. But none of this will ever stop me from belittling Eagirls phans for never winning a Superbowl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsburySkinsFan Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lombardi's_kid_brother Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 In terms of grading out players, championships matter a little bit... especially depending on what the discussion is (greatest player, most clutch player, best player at _____, etc.). In terms of grading out teams, they absolutely matter. THAT would actually be an outstanding discussion to have. That's a pretty easy discussion to have. That undefeated Patriots team is easily one of the five best teams ever. The Giants team that beat them probably doesn't crack the Top 100. I think you can make a pretty easy argument that the single best Redskins team ever is the one that lost to the Raiders in the Super Bowl. I'm not sure the Doug Williams team cracks the top 5 if I'm being honest. Also, there is no such thing as "most clutch" player ever. Clutch is not a thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsburySkinsFan Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 However, this is another reason why I like soccer so much. They have regular season points championships that mean a lot. They also have several other tournaments to be competed in by the team throughout the year. So there is an actual "League Champion" which is the team that has earned the most match points through the season which points to the strength of the team over the long term. Then there are the tournaments which are not a full picture of the team strength because the 2007 Patriots team beats the Giants 9 out of 10 times. The problem in the US is that the major sports football, basketball and baseball are geared toward winning the end of season tournament. There is no regular season champion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC9 Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 That's a pretty easy discussion to have. That undefeated Patriots team is easily one of the five best teams ever. The Giants team that beat them probably doesn't crack the Top 100. I think you can make a pretty easy argument that the single best Redskins team ever is the one that lost to the Raiders in the Super Bowl. I'm not sure the Doug Williams team cracks the top 5 if I'm being honest. Also, there is no such thing as "most clutch" player ever. Clutch is not a thing. Begging MLSkins forgiveness... So you're saying that we should combine the American League and the National League and the best record is champion? You're also saying that we extend the NFL season to over 30 games to ensure everyone plays everyone else? You're also saying that we do this for all sports in America? Gosh I hope a player doesn't get injured during that season... you're ****ed Maybe the Barclay's Premier League does have it right with just playing the 38 games and crowning the champ on points/goal difference/goals scored, etc. That's a title that is rarely decided on the last game of the season. Most of the time it's a month or so before the season ends. I'm sure sponsors will dig that, but I guess it'll leave little doubt at who the champion is, even as the league downsizes (here in America of course). And I totally agree, clutch doesn't exist in Tallahassee with placekickers... but that Vinateri cat was pretty alright. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dont Taze Me Bro Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 I try to tell people that all the time, they completely dismiss it. lol You have to also remember that the #5 seeded Pacers beat the #1 seeded Hawks in 6 games and also took the #2 seeded Knicks to 7 games in the conference finals. The Bulls had a very good team without Jordan the season after. But not a championship team either. Pippen, Grant, Armstrong, Myers and Cartwright w/Kukoc and Kerr on the bench were not going to win a championship. Pippen, Grant and BJ led them in scoring that year, Tony off the bench, that was about it. Even Pippen only averaged 22 ppg that season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrypticVillain Posted June 12, 2015 Author Share Posted June 12, 2015 You have to also remember that the #5 seeded Pacers beat the #1 seeded Hawks in 6 games and also took the #2 seeded Knicks to 7 games in the conference finals. And on top of that, the Knicks took the Rockets to 7 in the Finals too. I'm just saying, if Jordan was that good and the team didn't matter, they wouldn't have been able to hang like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chew Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 Mike has 6 rings. That **** matters, as he'll FOREVER be the goat, people like Lebron csn only dream to be as respected. Current championship record for James is a losing one, 2-3. Please, america....quit disrespecting MJ with the LBJ comparisons. It's DISGUSTING Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattFancy Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 Then why isn't Bill Russell considered the GOAT? He has the most rings. Same with Yogi Berra. Charles Haley. If rings really did matter, then why aren't the guys with the most the GOATs for their sport? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dont Taze Me Bro Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 And on top of that, the Knicks took the Rockets to 7 in the Finals too. I'm just saying, if Jordan was that good and the team didn't matter, they wouldn't have been able to hang like that. Never said the team didn't matter, they were a good playoff team, but not a championship team. We see teams that are not that good/great take the top teams to the brink all the time, in all sports. I'm not going to discredit LeBron for his historic play the first three games of the finals. Amazing. Edit: I'm not saying that the Cavs are not a good/great team either. Underrated and passed over early on. Talking about low seeds pulling upsets or near upsets on the top seeds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lombardi's_kid_brother Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 Begging MLSkins forgiveness... So you're saying that we should combine the American League and the National League and the best record is champion? You're also saying that we extend the NFL season to over 30 games to ensure everyone plays everyone else? You're also saying that we do this for all sports in America? Gosh I hope a player doesn't get injured during that season... you're ****ed Maybe the Barclay's Premier League does have it right with just playing the 38 games and crowning the champ on points/goal difference/goals scored, etc. That's a title that is rarely decided on the last game of the season. Most of the time it's a month or so before the season ends. I'm sure sponsors will dig that, but I guess it'll leave little doubt at who the champion is, even as the league downsizes (here in America of course). And I totally agree, clutch doesn't exist in Tallahassee with placekickers... but that Vinateri cat was pretty alright. No, I'm just saying that we really overvalue the importance of random end of season tournaments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dont Taze Me Bro Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 Then why isn't Bill Russell considered the GOAT? He has the most rings. Same with Yogi Berra. Charles Haley. If rings really did matter, then why aren't the guys with the most the GOATs for their sport? I think it's a contributing factor when talking about GOAT status versus Top 10, 20, 50, etc. players status. Every athlete in every professional sport will say, they play for a ring. They all want it before they retire or are forced to retire. It is the ultimate accomplishment. So, rings have to have some impact when it comes to GOAT evaluation, imo. Not the end all be all, but important in its own way. Not really fair either, but that's the way it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattFancy Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 No, I'm just saying that we really overvalue the importance of random end of season tournaments. The best example of this is the NCAA Basketball Tourney. How often do we really see the 2 best teams in the country meet in the title game? In fact, how often do we see the #1 seeds from each conference/league meet in the title games of their sport? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elessar78 Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 I think they are to a certain extent. But a lot depends on the position and the sport For an NFL QB, I do think it should be part of the discussion. Not all of it, but part of it. Best NFL Left Tackle? Yah, who cares how many superbowls. I wish I still watched the NBA so I could have a Lebron -vs- Jordan debate. But I don't. But that said, I suspect Lebron is probably better. I think Michael Jordan, while certainly great, is probably the most over-rated athlete in the history of sports. He was largely a cog in a huge marketing machine that unfolded on a generation of kids who were not immune to it, like the kids of today are. Was he a bum? Of course not, he was a great basketball player. But people talk about him like he was God... not even close. The year he retired from the Bulls that Team made the playoffs easily and took a stacked Knicks Team to 7 games. I'll put it out there that Jordan elevated the players on that team and got them playing to a hire standard. Pippen may have been a journeyman type had he not played with Jordan all those years. Same with Cukoc, Cartwright, Kerr, BJ Armstrong etc. Rodman was legit. Horace and Harvey Grant—one played for the bulls and another played for the bullets. Harvey was more of a go to for the Bullets but never really was a respected player in the league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC9 Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 No, I'm just saying that we really overvalue the importance of random end of season tournaments. Even most of the leagues around the world have tournaments. Like the Barclay's Premier League (as I already mentioned), their league champion is determined by playing home and home against each of the other 19 teams in the Premiership... but the top 4 teams get to play for the European Championship against the other big leagues in Europe. The bottom four teams get relegated to a lower division. If we had a similar system then I would say you have a point, but I don't think you do. Even team sports in the Olympics have medal rounds. In fact, how often do we see the #1 seeds from each conference/league meet in the title games of their sport? How often are those teams would you say are beaten by teams they've played previously in the regular season? I'd say less than 25% if not much fewer if you take into account history and all of the sports that have a decent-sized league pool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinthePRF Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 When comparing specific players, God yes. Eli Manning isn't the second best quarterback we have seen the last twenty years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Evil Genius Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 Comparing individual players on team sports - no they (championships) probably don't matter as much as people give them credit for. To me, Willie Mays is the greatest Baseball player ever. He won one WS ring. Is he 1/9th the player that Yogi Berra was? No. Now..for individual sports like Tennis, Golf, etc..of course they matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lombardi's_kid_brother Posted June 12, 2015 Share Posted June 12, 2015 Now..for individual sports like Tennis, Golf, etc..of course they matter. Of course, even then, we don't really know what we are doing. The Masters is the least competitive major yet is the most prestigious. The Players Championship always has the best field...yet is not a major. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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