Cliven Bundy Ranch Standoff

[Larry]

Admiring the way "he owes buckets of money, to to his continuing criminal activity" is referred to as "the government making his business unsustainable".

I mean, Nevada sure seems like a prime beef-raising location, to me.

----------

Having said that, though, there was one thing that's stuck in my head from that WaPo "Everything you need to know" article.

The article made reference to BLM buying back the grazing rights to the land.

 

Now, this implies to me that said grazing rights had been sold, some time previously. 

 

I assume (although I'm extrapolating from one sentence in the article) that said rancher, or an ancestor, bought said rights.  And that he refused to sell them back to BLM, when BLM decided to take them back. 

 

Now, I also assume that rancher has tried to assert that he owns said grazing rights, in court, and that said court disagrees.  But I do think that (if my extrapolation is correct) this is information worth mentioning. 

Are the snipers coming after this guy? hehehehehe

Have no clue who you're trying to deflect the thread towards.

But I will point out that I don't believe that "the snipers came" for this rancher, either.

[twa]

The Bundy family owns grazing rights and has invested in roads and water....owning the right does not mean the govt cannot limit the number obviously

 

The unsustainable comes from limiting them to 150 head of cattle, not from the individual head fee

 

which is where the tortoise and Reid's Green game comes in

 

kinda like drilling rights....ya still gotta pay extra for what ya extract

[The 12th Commandment]

When you have a grazing allotment you lease the right to graze you don't own that right (small but important difference).  

 

My understanding of the situation is the BLM, by decreasing the the number of cattle allowed to graze on the allotment, is changing the terms of the lease and buying back the difference.  Buying I think is a misleading way of putting it they are lower the cost because the value has decreased. Anyway, it's allowed and happens when the carrying capacity of the land changes - like due to prolonged and severe drought.  That's what the management in Bureau of Land Management is all about.  

 

Recreation, you can laugh easterners but we like our desert out here in the SW, is a popular and valid use that BLM has to consider too and if it's overgrazed to the point of ridiculousness by this tool just because his great grandpappy took a dump on the land 100 years ago there isn't much recreational value left.

 

I think if the rancher (any rancher) benefits from the land when it's verdant, and that same lease is still in effect (they are fairly long term) when it dries out, he should use money he put away in good times to get him through the bad without expecting the public to bail him out.  

[zoony]

KAO appreciate your input here

[twa]

is it being overgrazed KAO?

My understanding is they have different concerns/priorities

 

add

 

Bundy abdicated his grazing permit in 1994 due to lack of payment. In 1998 Clark County, as administrator for the Clark County Multiple Species Habitat Conservation Plan, purchased from willing sellers all the valid existing grazing leases in the Gold Butte area for $375,000 in exchange for being able to destroy a set amount of desert tortoise habitat on private lands to facilitate urban growth and development. The purchase included the acres in the revoked grazing permit, but Bundy has continued to graze on the county’s conservation land, undermining the agreement.

In April 2012 the Center for Biological Diversity filed a notice of intent to sue the BLM for canceling a planned roundup of the trespass cattle at the last moment.

http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/news/press_releases/2014/gold-butte-roundup-04-12-2014.html

[The 12th Commandment]

His dispute with the government dates to 1993, when land managers cited concern for the federally protected desert tortoise and capped Bundy’s herd at 150 animals on his 158,666-acre Bunkerville allotment of rangeland.

Bundy protested by withholding his monthly grazing fees and kept using the range. The BLM canceled his grazing permit in 1994. A federal court in 1998 ordered him to remove the animals, and federal authorities in 1999 officially closed the Bunkerville allotment to cattle.

Conservationists say the cows eat scarce forage needed by wildlife including the tortoise and horses.

 

http://web.archive.org/web/20140414062445/http://lasvegas.cbslocal.com/2014/04/09/nevada-governor-calls-federal-cattle-roundup-intimidation/

 

Bundy stopped paying in 1993 due to his constitutional issues with federal land existing in Nevada. He lost his grazing rights because he didn't pay.  In 1998, long after Bundy had lost his claim to that forage (per federal courts) the county purchased those grazing rights and the rights from a number of other allotments for tortoise habitat.  The county allowed development on other private that was also tortoise habitat (probably owned by local political contributor/developers   ).  Tortoise issue was the thing that he got torqued about and then he became a rangeland lawyer.  Same for me and my overgrazing comment, it's a pet peeve.  No evidence I've seen that he overgrazed.

 

There can be any number of situations that wind up in the BLM changing the criteria for a lease.  Forest fires, drought like I said and the protection of endangered species is in there too.  I don't read that BLM did anything unilaterally in this case.  The private leaseholders that sold did so willingly. The lease he didn't own anymore in 1998, was in the governments hands at the point because no other rancher was going to pay for it if Bundy's cattle were still there.  That's how he stole.

 

I wonder why Bundy didn't put the grazing fees in escrow with the county if he felt so strongly about it? Don't know it would have changed anything legally but he would look a lot less like a thief.

[twa]

the county refused to accept payment naturally(according to daughter)

 

there was a somewhat similar case there that went the other way in the court

 

http://www.r-calfusa.com/property_rights/130524FindingsOfFactAndConclusionsOfLaw.pdf

 

maybe he just needs better lawyers   , I hear he had to plead that "it is state,not federal land" one himself 

pretty sad when ya can't even get a lawyer to talk **** for ya 

[chipwhich]

Coming from a family of farmers, and living on a plot of land adjacent to a farm, I can say farmers are some strange folk.  Land is more important than money.  My family members died poor monetarily speaking when they could have sold their land and cashed out.  Cashed out with multi-millions of dollars including free houses on the land.

 

They tend to believe in property lines based on trees rather than actual county/state plats and feel the government is always trying to take what is theirs.

 

I don't understand it myself.  Cash me out.

[AdamB]

Coming from a family of farmers, and living on a plot of land adjacent to a farm, I can say farmers are some strange folk.  Land is more important than money.  My family members died poor monetarily speaking when they could have sold their land and cashed out.  Cashed out with multi-millions of dollars including free houses on the land.

 

They tend to believe in property lines based on trees rather than actual county/state plats and feel the government is always trying to take what is theirs.

 

I don't understand it myself.  Cash me out.

 

Folks come to attach the land to the family itself. Woodside, my wife's family's farm in VA, is something like 350 acres. They could easily sell the land while keeping the house plot and call it a day. Instead they plant trees on it, wait 25 years, and make much less than they could by selling the land itself.

 

They don't because that land has been in the family since the early 1700's. It is part of who they are and who their family is. Money can by things, but the land represents security and history.

[skinsmarydu]

When my family eventually sold the compound, my brother & I (both of us nearing 40 at the time) threw tantrums like toddlers...after all, you're supposed to protect home plate, right? We realize now that Mom, Dad, and MeMaw can enjoy their retirement years without having to worry about landscaping for 3 acres and gutter cleaning, etc., which if my brother had chipped in on such efforts, it wouldn't have gotten cumbersome.

add: sorry for the derail...I'm still a little pissed at my brother.

[Jumbo]

Dammit! I am tired of the feds! I have had a change of mind on this matter!

 

I am suiting up and showing up in support as only a Real American can!

 

(besides, i was told I need a photo update for ES so this kills two birds with one explosive round)

 

 

 

[skinsmarydu]

...it does, indeed...

[AdamB]

I think Ol' Bessie there is stretching the SASS dress code just a tad....

[Dan T.]

Jumbo, it looks like you're flashing the devil's horn sign with your udders.

[Jumbo]

I used to ride with Satan's Cows.

 

(a misogynist tag for my ex-wives---all lovely women of outstanding qualities)

[Dan T.]

And what comes out of those teats? My guess is bourbon.  Good ol' American bourbon.

[The Sisko]

Bourbon laced with humor and sarcasm. 

[Tulane Skins Fan]

Marveling at the ability of some people to take a story in which:

1) Rancher decides that he's not going to pay rent for somebody else's land that he wants to use.

2) Not only refuses to pay rent, refuses to stop using the land he's not paying rent on.

3) Continues doing so for 20 years. Refusing to pay rent. Refusing to stop using.

4) Ignores dozens of court rulings, all of which agree that he owes a steadily increasing pile of money.

5) Landlord decides to take action against deadbeat tenant.

6) Deadbeat tenant yells for an armed mob to show up and help him.

6) Armed mob does, in fact, show up to help him.

7) Landlord responds with sufficient force to deal with armed mob.

8) Landlord then decides not to push things further, and backs down.

and conclude that the story is about

1) "The environmentalists are coming to destroy your business"

2) Harry Reid.

 

The little I know about this story is consumed in the bold part.  He had his due process, and he lost.  This is like complaining a criminal convicted by a jury of his peers is being subjected to oppression by the government that jails him.  We have laws for a reason people.

[twa]

  We have laws for a reason people.

 

That's what the Brits and the border control crowd said as well.

 

 

maybe it is just the way some people apply them is the problem? 

[Tulane Skins Fan]

That's what the Brits and the border control crowd said as well.

 

 

maybe it is just the way some people apply them is the problem? 

 

What?

[twa]

What?

 

What?

[The 12th Commandment]

TMNT repping tortoises in the NV

 

 

[Predicto]

What?

 

It's a twa'ism.   It isn't supposed to make sense.  

[skinsmarydu]

Jumbo, it looks like you're flashing the devil's horn sign with your udders.

while conducting a yard sale complete with a porta-potty. Hail, the King!

[AsburySkinsFan]

The little I know about this story is consumed in the bold part.  He had his due process, and he lost.  This is like complaining a criminal convicted by a jury of his peers is being subjected to oppression by the government that jails him.  We have laws for a reason people.

The funniest (read: part that makes him look stupid) is that up until he started to run afoul of the Federal government, he apparently had no problem paying grazing fees to the Federal government. Which at least in my mind undermines his whole "I don't recognize the Federal government's ownership of this land........anymore........now that they've changed the rules.........."