If Lesbianism is a serious sin, why is there no prohibition against (or even mention of) it in the OT (Tanakh)?

[Captain James]

The idea of a loving father cannot coexist with an idea of that father drowning his children when they mess up.

Old Testament cannot coexist with teachings of Jesus and the idea of salvation through human sacrifice cannot coexist with reason.

I assume you are referring to God when you speak of this "loving father". This thought process comes from not fully grasping the concept of free will. God blessed us with the hugest gift ever in that of not being created as puppets. God gave us the choice to either worship Him and live an amazing life with His blessings and thus continuing this relationship for eternity in heaven: or we can choose not to worship Him and not live according to His perfect design thus spending eternity separated from Him. It is OUR CHOICE. If someone does not want to worship God even one day a week why would that person want to spend eternity worshiping Him? Heaven would essentially be a hell for those people. God does not drown His children. Some people drown themselves. 

 

Jesus routinely affirmed the Old Testament Scriptures throughout His own teachings. Why exactly can't they coexist? This may be a lack of Bible knowledge (not a slight). 

 

I don't fully understand your last point about salvation through human sacrifice. What do you mean exactly? If I slightly understand, maybe you're referring simply to how God accepted atonement for sin. In the Old Testament their sins were only forgiven by the blood of an animal (usually lamb). This is why God made the ultimate sacrifice by becoming flesh and dying on the cross paying atonement for our sins for us. 

[Jumbo]

I also suggest we all try to keep this thread as connected to the OP as much as possible, and definitely (this part is more a directive) not turn it into more "just generic random religious topics" debate.

[Captain James]

Not all of it is a rejection of God though. Some of it is making religion more practical, or reconciling it with the actual world around you. A lot of it is rejecting the old views of man for the new, and one doesn't reconcile religion unless they care about it and don't want it to become outdated. Seriously, maintaining ALL of Christianity as written in the Bible would mean maintaining old perspectives heavily influenced by man's own failings. That's wrong. It has to be able to adapt. God didn't give man all the answers, and still hasn't. It's up to us to find them, and the Bible can be a guide, but it too has to be adapted and reinterpreted along the way. It has to be a living document, not one set in stone because then it can't get past the things man got wrong, it wouldn't be subject to reinterpretation.  

 

In the end faith is what we make of it, not what some organization tries to tell us to make of it or what outdated writings make of it.

 

Unfortunately people are trying to take God away from them. Some, not all. They outcast those they view as sinners. Has happened for long, long time. Thing is, as I said, that could be a view inserted by man since he created the Bible. Homosexuality IMO is no more a sin than heterosexuality. It's just how it is. Procreation is NOT the sole justification for sexuality. That's archaic thinking. Homosexuality is hard-wired in some people, on a genetic level. So it really can't be a sin, that's something man got wrong.

I totally get what you're trying to say and it definitely comes across level-headed and non-aholish. It's nice to discuss these things without getting fussy 

 

Anyways, I just simply disagree. The Bible tells us that the wisdom of man is foolishness to God and that God's foolishness is wiser than man's wisdom. Through my Biblically-based worldview, I just see man every day growing "smarter" and boasting about all of his accomplishments. I see man constantly trying to outsmart God. I feel that we are lead too much by our feelings and heart rather than just trusting His word and those who came before us. Agree to disagree I suppose 

I also suggest we all try to keep this thread as connected to the OP as much as possible, and definitely (this part is more a directive) not turn it into more "just generic random religious topics" debate.

No doubt. I began by addressing the OP but have since then just trying to defend my beliefs haha. The OP even came back stating this was all just for fun anyways so maybe we should just close this bad boy and sit the next couple of plays out lol

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

It is hard for me to add an informed, erudite opinion in my current depressed state at this thread not containing the pictures I'd hoped for upon seeing the title. (Admittedly my interest peaked with the second word and I got no further; but still. I feel CHEATED!). 

 

Hail. 

[Jumbo]

I think you articulated things from your perspective quite nicely in those last two posts, Captain J.

 

As most folks here I think would know, I don't have to agree with a given view to appreciate and respect such effort. Even with what fussing and fighting we have amongst our tribe here, I think that kind of thoughtful product is more the norm than the exception, believe it or not.   

[alexey]

I assume you are referring to God when you speak of this "loving father". This thought process comes from not fully grasping the concept of free will.

...

God does not drown His children. Some people drown themselves.

You make it sound like I would accept the explanation if only I could understand it. The book says a loving god sent the flood in order to drown people who made bad choices.

Can I have a full grasp of the "free will" explanation, but still reject it?

 

Jesus routinely affirmed the Old Testament Scriptures throughout His own teachings. Why exactly can't they coexist? This may be a lack of Bible knowledge (not a slight).

Tell me how Old Testament's treatment of slavery, genocide, rape can be reconciled with "love thy neighbour"

 

I don't fully understand your last point about salvation through human sacrifice. What do you mean exactly? If I slightly understand, maybe you're referring simply to how God accepted atonement for sin. In the Old Testament their sins were only forgiven by the blood of an animal (usually lamb). This is why God made the ultimate sacrifice by becoming flesh and dying on the cross paying atonement for our sins for us.

Yes, I am talking about the conflict between reason and the idea of sacrificing living things to gods.

Oh oh Jumbo wants us to stay on topic... So yeah let's stop guessing what gods want and focus on helping humans. We have real information about humans and there is a lot of work to do. Yay humanism.

[Jumbo]

 

 

No doubt. I began by addressing the OP but have since then just trying to defend my beliefs haha. The OP even came back stating this was all just for fun anyways so maybe we should just close this bad boy and sit the next couple of plays out lol

 

 

 

  Yeah, I hear ya. I'll give it a bit more rope in case it matters. 

[twa]

It is hard for me to add an informed, erudite opinion in my current depressed state at this thread not containing the pictures I'd hoped for upon seeing the title. (Admittedly my interest peaked with the second word and I got no further; but still. I feel CHEATED!). 

 

Hail. 

 

 

 

or 

 

[Captain James]

You make it sound like I would accept the explanation if only I could understand it. The book says a loving god sent the flood in order to drown people who made bad choices.

Can I have a full grasp of the "free will" explanation, but still reject it?

 

Tell me how Old Testament's treatment of slavery, genocide, rape can be reconciled with "love thy neighbour"

 

Yes, I am talking about the conflict between reason and the idea of sacrificing living things to gods.

Oh oh Jumbo wants us to stay on topic... So yeah let's stop guessing what gods want and focus on helping humans. We have real information about humans and there is a lot of work to do. Yay humanism.

I would just encourage you to read the Bible with an open heart and an open mind. Often times we fall into the trap of only allowing our intellect to lead the way when really it's a heart issue. Since this conversation is drawing to a close (and for good reason) I just encourage you to read the Bible yourself. Read it openly, try to understands contexts, ask Christians around you to try to explain some of your confusions and doubt. If you truly want to discover if God exists and if the Bible is true, just simply find yourself some quiet time and ask Him to come into your heart and help guide you. You won't be disappointed if you sincerely ask in Jesus name. God bless you brother.

[alexey]

I would just encourage you to read the Bible with an open heart and an open mind. Often times we fall into the trap of only allowing our intellect to lead the way when really it's a heart issue. Since this conversation is drawing to a close (and for good reason) I just encourage you to read the Bible yourself. Read it openly, try to understands contexts, ask Christians around you to try to explain some of your confusions and doubt. If you truly want to discover if God exists and if the Bible is true, just simply find yourself some quiet time and ask Him to come into your heart and help guide you. You won't be disappointed if you sincerely ask in Jesus name. God bless you brother.

Thank you for the sentiment.

As somebody passionate about science in general and neurobiology in particular, I know mechanisms that you are describing as a way to find god.

I would not be successful in convincing myself that I found god, and I would not benefit from trying.

I think you are giving a good advice about reading the Bible for yourself, however. Reading the Bible is a great way out of religion. I think all believers should read it for themselves.

[alexey]

I am still curious if you think somebody can understand the "free will" explanation of god allowing/causing suffering but remain unconvinced by it

Also, do you think god or people wrote that particular part about homosexuals? If god, why do you think he is against it? And how do you know which parts of the bible god wants us to take literally?

[AsburySkinsFan]

Jumbo, sorry for not makng myself clear, I was not complaining about your moderation or your comment to me at all.

My point was directed at the double standard HER position creates.

I have zero problem with what you wrote.

Although, I'm not sure which sentence was close to a rule violation.

/steps out of thread

[Jumbo]

ASF was also very gracious in a PM to me about this matter, and I replied in detail to be sure it was understood what it was and what it wasn't about. And as I said to him, and as I genuinely feel about many folks here, we are lucky to have him in the forum.

[Dont Taze Me Bro]

Totally calm.

No doubt, but that doesn't mean that those beliefs are justified, and aren't completely sexist. And it doesn't mean that those beliefs shouldn't be rejected in favor of reality.

Really....hmmm this quote seems a bit more cut and dry...

So according to her categories men either ignore women unless a woman affects them somehow, or the men are cat-callers.

Right, lots of latitude there for authentic relationships between men and women.

And no matter what category I apparently fall into for her the women in my life are just some form of property to me.

No, what she said was that the only reason I have a relationship with a woman is because somehow I have to deal with a woman in a way that was unavoidable for me.

So you prefer sexism to racism, that's fine I find them both repugnant.

BTW, not all Klan are violent, but they do share the same racist beliefs which boils down to simple genetics.

It's sexist and disturbing.

I don't prefer either.  I'm just saying, based on her previous posts I've read, that I don't find her sexist overall as a person.  She is very strong in what she believes and openly shares her opinion.  I don't see her as a man hater though, regardless of what she posted.  

 

I don't know her personally, I'm simply basing my opinion on her based on her posts on here, which the majority of lead me to believe she is a strong women that is not scared to voice her opinion.  

 

And to get back on track in the topic.  Like I said before, we have a loving God.  And if God created everyone in his image.  Then he created some men/women to be homosexuals just like he created some men/women to be heterosexuals.  So how is it a sin?  

[alexey]

...And to get back on track in the topic. Like I said before, we have a loving God. And if God created everyone in his image. Then he created some men/women to be homosexuals just like he created some men/women to be heterosexuals. So how is it a sin?

There are many ways to make sense of god, creation, sexuality, sin, etc. and they all contain a dose of mystery.

For some people the mystery is in why god thinks that homosexuality is a sin. For other people the mystery is in why the bible has that kind of hateful material.

Hopefully more people will embrace the latter kind of mystery or better yet stop creating mysteries where no mysteries exist. We evolved from filthy monkey men (and women). Can we please deal with that.

[Larry]

We evolved from filthy monkey men (and women). Can we please deal with that.

I blame the monolith.

[skinsmarydu]

And to get back on track in the topic.  Like I said before, we have a loving God.  And if God created everyone in his image.  Then he created some men/women to be homosexuals just like he created some men/women to be heterosexuals.  So how is it a sin?

All of this. Got my mom with that once. She still hasn't recovered from that "revelation".

[Zguy28]

All of this. Got my mom with that once. She still hasn't recovered from that "revelation".

Of course unless you believe the bible and that before mankind "fell" there was no sin, including homosexuality. With the Fall came death and all kinds of misery. So while God does create all people in His image, and Christians should respect such when dealing with them, people are also now subject to all kinds of things, which includes homosexuality. This is affirmed by the apostle Paul in Romans 1, where homosexual behavior is rooted ultimately in idolatry (just like everything else that is a sin).

[Jumbo]

lol...never mind...that one was so long...

 

one reason some come out that way is almost everything i type is interrupted any number of times by other stuff and i come back and it's "oh yeah, this" and I just don't have time to edit.

 

and then given my typing skills---I spell like King King but type like Tamba---even a paragraph is such a labor intensive effort. then i hate to just toss a lot things i wrote that i can't come back and do over a series of short posts in a given conversation if i really want to engage. it's just not how it works for me on this end most of the time the last few years. 

 

it was a dilly though. 

[Koolblue13]

This thread is ****ing weird.

[alexey]

Of course unless you believe the bible and that before mankind "fell" there was no sin, including homosexuality. With the Fall came death and all kinds of misery.

...

Are you a creationist? If not, can you please explain how this maps to things we know about evolution?

[Captain James]

I am still curious if you think somebody can understand the "free will" explanation of god allowing/causing suffering but remain unconvinced by it

Also, do you think god or people wrote that particular part about homosexuals? If god, why do you think he is against it? And how do you know which parts of the bible god wants us to take literally?

I'm still trying to wrap my brain around your first question (not sure the coffee has kicked in yet). I think the best answer in my opinion is that there is simply a BIG difference even in peoples personalities and temperaments with how they approach these topics. Some people feel the need to find God and have an easy time believing in Him while others feel it less natural and are more drawn to "disproving" Him.

 

To me, the concept of TRUE free will is enough for me to be completely convinced. Free will is directly connected with love. True love could not exist without true free will. God has given us free will so that we can freely choose to love Him and one another.

 

I feel that this also relates to why God doesn't necessarily come down with thunder and lightening and reveal Himself to everyone eliminating any doubt in people's minds. If we all saw God (the way our finite minds want to see Him) in that blatant way then free will would basically dissipate. It would be very hard after that for people to actually have a choice in loving Him if they had such an encounter. It would be beyond bold to reject Him after something like that.

 

Your last question then about who wrote about homosexuals in the Bible. I believe that God used/inspired errant, finite, sinning men to write down verbatim what He had to say at the time. Yes these were mere men but when led by the Holy Spirit they got the job done. If someone believes that the Bible is truly God's word then it's not hard to believe that God has preserved His word through the ages. Along the same lines, if God is the creator of all- then preserving a book is a simple task indeed. I have full comfort in that.

 

Now in regards to homosexuality specifically... Of course I could say that I just look at a male and female anatomy and easily understand what's going on there. More importantly however is the fact that I believe God above anyone else and trust Him above even my own thoughts and understandings. Oftentimes this concept of homosexuality as a sin gets directly attributed to Christians themselves when it wasn't us who imagined it. I know that I personally wouldn't care less about someones orientation or identity if it were not for my trust in God's word. Why would I? I have an understanding at this point in my relationship with God that we are all born into sin and that we can't always trust our feelings (or gut). Why is God against homosexuality? I cannot answer for Him.

Proverbs 3:5-6 "Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your OWN understanding; in all your ways submit to Him and He will make your paths straight." (not that kind of straight.  please don't misinterpret)

 

That's my jam right there.

[Zguy28]

Are you a creationist? If not, can you please explain how this maps to things we know about evolution?

Ol' Alexey, chomping at the bit. Friend, I really have no desire to take this thread down that road.  I do believe in a historical Adam (so did Jesus and Paul), but also in old rocks and fossils. Let's let it go at that. There are threads aplenty for this.

[alexey]

Ol' Alexey, chomping at the bit. Friend, I really have no desire to take this thread down that road. I do believe in a historical Adam (so did Jesus and Paul), but also in old rocks and fossils. Let's let it go at that. There are threads aplenty for this.

Looking forward to learning more about how you reconcile evolution, which includes death and suffering with the historical Adam that was supposedly free of those things.

[LadySkinsFan]

Well, yanno, Adam was free of death and suffering until that wicked Eve ate the apple and God banished them from the Garden of Eden, then they were subject to death and suffering.

 

Yes, I was raised in the United Methodist Church until the 11th grade, when I decided to not believe what I was being taught, so I have a pretty good Biblical understanding.  I just don't believe or have faith in it.