Help for a Conflicted Christian

[Vilandil Tasardur]

Allow me to preface this topic by saying: I understand that many of you will disagree with the views I present. I'm not asking for the views to be discussed purely for the sake of discussing them. Such topics are wonderful points of conversation, but I'm asking that we discuss those in other threads. What I'm asking for, is advice on where to turn based on my views.

 

 

For those that don't know, I'm recently married and recently moved back to the DMV after living five years in Pittsburgh. I'm living in the Laurel/College Park area, but I begin studying at George Mason for my masters with the coming semester (yeah, it'll be a rough commute). All of my background is in Paleontology and Evolutionary Biology. I have done a lot of work on fossils (yes, some dinosaurs) and I am going to be doing my thesis studying fossil whales.

 

How does this tie in to faith? Well, naturally given my background, I am not what people call a "young earth" creationists and I am certainly not a "biblical literalist". Not just as it applies to the story of creation, but all throughout the bible, my wife and I believe that the bible tells wonderful stories and has powerful messages that go beyond the literal words in the bible. From reading the many religious threads here on ES, I HAVE to believe that we are not alone in this belief.

 

I have seen many posts where good christians downplay the notion of an earth being created 4,000 years ago as it is today. In general, we believe that bible stories are powerful metaphors to teach us about our daily lives. When we read the story of Jonah, we see a man swallowed by pride and hubris, not a literal sea monster. When we read about Jesus sweating blood in the garden, we identify with a man who is so stressed that it is physically affecting his body (as opposed to literal blood). And we FIRMLY believe that not believing in these stories literally does not take away any of their inherent value. 

 

 

 

So. To our dilemma. The problem is that, we are struggling to find a church where we can call home. At the moment, we have dabbled in a baptist church where many of our friends attend. But we just don't feel welcome. We feel like every week we are being asked for money, we feel that stories focus too strongly on the literal "miracles", and we feel that the preacher rarely touches on the proper application of what we take as metaphors. 

 

The other problem we have with this particular church, and several other churches we have tried, is my profession. I have been to several churches were I have been told that my "profession is fake" and "built on lies buried by the devil" and that I will "go to hell for spreading evolution's lies to children". At worst, I have been called out and attacked when people find out what I do. At best, they get quiet, skirt the topic, and make me feel uncomfortable around them moving forward because I know they disagree. 

 

But my wife and I are NOT looking to turn away from our Christian roots or faith. We know that others exist with our views and we know that there is a church out there where we can call home. A church where we can study and focus on how the bible applies to the modern world. A place where we can study the bible, not as literal dogma, but as scholarly text. A place where we can learn how modern science enhances our understanding of our creator. And a place where I won't be judged for working with fossils.

 

So the big question. Are we looking for a specific denomination? Are we looking for a specific church? Or are we looking for a couple group of people who share our opinions? Any advice from my fellow Christians on the board?

[alexey]

Maybe Quakers? They seem pretty nice, got great ideas, and tend to be on the right side of history.

[chipwhich]

There is no answer to the OP.  There is no right denomination.  You just need to find a group of people you like to hang with.  Sometimes that might be a non denominational type of church.

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

^^^ What he said he.

 

 

Baptist DEFINITELY ain't it though. Went to Baptist school my whole life and any time I brought anything up that slightly challenged biblical literalism, I got into trouble. My whole family is baptist and I'm kinda scared to talk to any of them about stuff like that because I know the reaction. Now the whole religion deal really turns me off in general

 

Best thing I can tell you is just keep looking but not for anything in particular. When you see it, you'll know I guess. 

[chipwhich]

^^^ What he said he.

 

 

Baptist DEFINITELY ain't it though. Went to Christian school my whole life and any time I brought anything up that slightly challenged biblical literalism, I got into trouble. My whole family is baptist and I'm kinda scared to talk to any of them about stuff like that because I know the reaction. Now the whole religion deal really turns me off in general

 

Best thing I can tell you is just keep looking but not for anything in particular. When you see it, you'll know I guess. 

 

Agreed, of all of the churches I have been to, Baptists are definitely the most "opinionated".

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

Luckily, I've always been interested in other points of thinking so I made it point to read about evolution and the like. Unfortunately, I'd say that about 90% of the other students don't share my interests, which creates an even bigger population of misguided ppl.

 

My little brother still goes there (he's 12) and I'm really conflicted about talking to him about having an open mind. 

[Vilandil Tasardur]

Thanks for the opinions guys. It's definitely a challenge.

 

I figured the answer wouldn't be one denomination vs any other. I just don't even know how to go about looking (as evidenced by my being here.)

 

Should I literally just try a different local church every Sunday until we find the one we're comfortable at? I've been thinking for a while now that God would nudge me in the right direction but every time I bring up what I do I get that "Oh, that's nice" and quick change of subject. I told someone I teach Geology last week and they straight up asked "Why? It's all wrong..."

[chipwhich]

Thanks for the opinions guys. It's definitely a challenge.

 

I figured the answer wouldn't be one denomination vs any other. I just don't even know how to go about looking (as evidenced by my being here.)

 

Should I literally just try a different local church every Sunday until we find the one we're comfortable at? I've been thinking for a while now that God would nudge me in the right direction but every time I bring up what I do I get that "Oh, that's nice" and quick change of subject. I told someone I teach Geology last week and they straight up asked "Why? It's all wrong..."

 

Go to a Catholic church, they just wont talk to you

 

It sounds to me like you need a non denominational, try as you go type church.

[DaGoonie55]

Thanks for the opinions guys. It's definitely a challenge.

 

I figured the answer wouldn't be one denomination vs any other. I just don't even know how to go about looking (as evidenced by my being here.)

 

Should I literally just try a different local church every Sunday until we find the one we're comfortable at? I've been thinking for a while now that God would nudge me in the right direction but every time I bring up what I do I get that "Oh, that's nice" and quick change of subject. I told someone I teach Geology last week and they straight up asked "Why? It's all wrong..."

 

Find a phone book.  Dial the church and talk to the leader/deacon/minister, "Hello, I'm looking for a potential church for me and my family to attend.  How do you feel about the subject of Evolutionary Biology?"

 

The answer will let you know if you want to attend this church.

 

God Bless You Sir.

 

A kindred spirit with respect to Evolutionary Biology through creationism.  That's for another thread.  But we are out there!!!!!  Hope you find a congregation that will open their hearts to you.

[Zguy28]

Let's be honest here, when you know a certain thing is a fundamental belief to some people, and you disagree with it openly in the place they feel safe, what do you expect? To them you are just as uncomfortable.

 

I know many in the baptist church who are that way. They feel threatened by it or else feel it is so fundamental that it is not debatable. I am a deacon in a Southern Baptist church and frequently have run into "conflict" over it because I believe the earth is old (but I also believe in a literal Adam as well as all of Genesis). Only once though was it uncomfortable in a real sense and the guys wife told him to knock it off. The others, like my fellow deacons and pastors, mostly just chide me when the subject happens to come up, but that's it.

 

The Presbyterian Church in America published this report regarding Creation interpretations. Its very thorough.

http://www.pcahistory.org/creation/report.html

 

Also, a less thorough, but more bare bones, is this from the President of the baptist Seminary I attend. Danny Akin is a six day literalist, but doesn't shy away from the fact that exegesis is possible that disagrees with that.

http://www.danielakin.com/wp-content/uploads/old/Resource_569/6%20Creation.pdf

 

While many evangelicals will react the way you describe, many will also not and realize that evolution and creation views are secondary doctrine. Historical-Grammatical exegesis in general however... good luck with that.

[Mad Mike]

I don't have a solution to your dilemma other than to suggest you stand up for yourself and for proven scientific reality. If you want to find a church that will accept you, start by accepting yourself.

 

I honestly hope you find what you are looking for.

[Vilandil Tasardur]

Let's be honest here, when you know a certain thing is a fundamental belief to some people, and you disagree with it openly in the place they feel safe, what do you expect? To them you are just as uncomfortable.

 

I know many in the baptist church who are that way. They feel threatened by it or else feel it is so fundamental that it is not debatable. I am a deacon in a Southern Baptist church and frequently have run into "conflict" over it because I believe the earth is old (but I also believe in a literal Adam as well as all of Genesis). Only once though was it uncomfortable in a real sense and the guys wife told him to knock it off. The others, like my fellow deacons and pastors, mostly just chide me when the subject happens to come up, but that's it.

 

The Presbyterian Church in America published this report regarding Creation interpretations. Its very thorough.

http://www.pcahistory.org/creation/report.html

 

Also, a less thorough, but more bare bones, is this from the President of the baptist Seminary I attend. Danny Akin is a six day literalist, but doesn't shy away from the fact that exegesis is possible that disagrees with that.

http://www.danielakin.com/wp-content/uploads/old/Resource_569/6%20Creation.pdf

What a thorough post. Many, many thanks for the help.

 

You're right, I make them just as uncomfortable as they make me. I know it. And I am empathetic enough to know that we simply have a difference of opinion. I long ago stopped trying to "convince" Christians to believe in evolution. I'm not out to change anyone's mind. Just looking for a place to fit in.

 

 

When I was in undergrad, some of my favorite classes were the religious studies. I had a FABULOUS class on Jesus in the four gospels. We studied it ONLY from a historical stand point, analyzing what we knew to be fact. It was incredibly entertaining to study each gospel from the standpoint of whom the intended audience was, when they were written, potential biases, etc. I loved the scholarly aspect of it. I always appreciate new reading material on faith. Thanks a ton.

[Zguy28]

What a thorough post. Many, many thanks for the help.

 

You're right, I make them just as uncomfortable as they make me. I know it. And I am empathetic enough to know that we simply have a difference of opinion. I long ago stopped trying to "convince" Christians to believe in evolution. I'm not out to change anyone's mind. Just looking for a place to fit in.

 

 

When I was in undergrad, some of my favorite classes were the religious studies. I had a FABULOUS class on Jesus in the four gospels. We studied it ONLY from a historical stand point, analyzing what we knew to be fact. It was incredibly entertaining to study each gospel from the standpoint of whom the intended audience was, when they were written, potential biases, etc. I loved the scholarly aspect of it. I always appreciate new reading material on faith. Thanks a ton.

Not to take you off-topic, but I will throw in a reading suggestion based on your class mention: "Reinventing Jesus" by Ed Komoszewsk. I hope you find a church to call home.

[zoony]

If you believe in science stay away from the Baptists.

Methodists or Catholics or even Anglican might be an option

[twa]

If you believe in science stay away from the Baptists.

Methodists or Catholics or even Anglican might be an option

 

I've found them more open to evolution than drinking and dancing 

 

many are rather closed minded,but some are exceptions and as zguy mentioned,recognize it is a secondary issue

[DallasCowboyFan156]

If you know people that are like minded then perhaps instead of a brick and mortar church you can have a small gathering of believers where you seek biblical truth together, in your living room or something. A home church may be a good option for you.

[PeterMP]

For many protestents, it is a big change, but I think in terms of message, accpetence, and the hey give us money (in most cases, they at least limit that part from being to up front to a few times a year), you'd find yourself pretty comfortable in most Catholic Churches.  Despite what people think, they can vary so even there you might want to do some "shopping" to find something that fits.

 

To echo zoony, I'd suspect most Anglican or Lutheran churches would be okay too, but in my experience they are suffering from shrinking/aging populations so if your young you might feel out of place, and if you visit them there is a sense of desperation for members.

 

Many Catholic Churches are pretty vibrant in terms of population size and things like young familes.  I will say in terms of involvement, it is pretty much up to you.

 

In most cases, they aren't going to say how much money can you give, but they also aren't going to have somebody that comes up and says, 'Hey, I'm John.  What's your name?  Have you been here before?  Hey, we're having a pot luck at 1, why don't you come?'

 

They'll be anouncements and some sort of bulletin with things it, but they don't tend to be overly assertive or pro-active in terms of bringing new people in.

[Dont Taze Me Bro]

Allow me to preface this topic by saying: I understand that many of you will disagree with the views I present. I'm not asking for the views to be discussed purely for the sake of discussing them. Such topics are wonderful points of conversation, but I'm asking that we discuss those in other threads. What I'm asking for, is advice on where to turn based on my views.

 

 

For those that don't know, I'm recently married and recently moved back to the DMV after living five years in Pittsburgh. I'm living in the Laurel/College Park area, but I begin studying at George Mason for my masters with the coming semester (yeah, it'll be a rough commute). All of my background is in Paleontology and Evolutionary Biology. I have done a lot of work on fossils (yes, some dinosaurs) and I am going to be doing my thesis studying fossil whales.

 

How does this tie in to faith? Well, naturally given my background, I am not what people call a "young earth" creationists and I am certainly not a "biblical literalist". Not just as it applies to the story of creation, but all throughout the bible, my wife and I believe that the bible tells wonderful stories and has powerful messages that go beyond the literal words in the bible. From reading the many religious threads here on ES, I HAVE to believe that we are not alone in this belief.

 

I have seen many posts where good christians downplay the notion of an earth being created 4,000 years ago as it is today. In general, we believe that bible stories are powerful metaphors to teach us about our daily lives. When we read the story of Jonah, we see a man swallowed by pride and hubris, not a literal sea monster. When we read about Jesus sweating blood in the garden, we identify with a man who is so stressed that it is physically affecting his body (as opposed to literal blood). And we FIRMLY believe that not believing in these stories literally does not take away any of their inherent value. 

 

 

 

So. To our dilemma. The problem is that, we are struggling to find a church where we can call home. At the moment, we have dabbled in a baptist church where many of our friends attend. But we just don't feel welcome. We feel like every week we are being asked for money, we feel that stories focus too strongly on the literal "miracles", and we feel that the preacher rarely touches on the proper application of what we take as metaphors. 

 

The other problem we have with this particular church, and several other churches we have tried, is my profession. I have been to several churches were I have been told that my "profession is fake" and "built on lies buried by the devil" and that I will "go to hell for spreading evolution's lies to children". At worst, I have been called out and attacked when people find out what I do. At best, they get quiet, skirt the topic, and make me feel uncomfortable around them moving forward because I know they disagree. 

 

But my wife and I are NOT looking to turn away from our Christian roots or faith. We know that others exist with our views and we know that there is a church out there where we can call home. A church where we can study and focus on how the bible applies to the modern world. A place where we can study the bible, not as literal dogma, but as scholarly text. A place where we can learn how modern science enhances our understanding of our creator. And a place where I won't be judged for working with fossils.

 

So the big question. Are we looking for a specific denomination? Are we looking for a specific church? Or are we looking for a couple group of people who share our opinions? Any advice from my fellow Christians on the board?

Baptist churches are the worst for being judgmental about professions, lifestyle, etc.  I grew up going to a Baptist church, was baptized in the Baptist church.  They are a lot more hell fire and brimstone in their interpretation of what is right or wrong.  When I was growing up and attending regularly, they turned their head and noses up at my dad, blasted him in Sunday school classes, because of where he worked (at the ABC store).  Completely made him feel unwelcome at all.  

 

Also, if you notice, the ministers and pastors in popular/large Baptist churches are stacking those dolla bills, huge houses, nice cars, etc.  

Anyhow, don't let it get to you.  My parents eventually joined a Lutheran church and love it.  I quit going to church after I moved to Charlotte for college.  I can probably count the number of times (not including weddings of friends) on my hands that I have attended church since getting married in one back in 1998.  And the majority of those times was at Christmas.  It's not that I don't believe and am trying to teach my daughter, I've just fallen off the path.

 

Anyhow, All of those times, I went to a Lutheran church and me and the wife really enjoyed it.  So, when I do attend, its there.  

[Vilandil Tasardur]

If you know people that are like minded then perhaps instead of a brick and mortar church you can have a small gathering of believers where you seek biblical truth together, in your living room or something. A home church may be a good option for you.

I've been thinking along these lines. Unfortunately, what with just recently moving back, it's a challenge at this point. Still, I think this is eventually the way I'd like to move towards.

 

 

 

Pete:

 

I have a TON of respect for you man, both as a man of faith and a man of science. The Catholic church has long been on my mind. I have heard a lot about how they've changed in recent years and are making a powerful effort to enter the 21st century. I was raised by a Catholic mother and an atheist father. My experiences in the Catholic church as a boy weren't great. Similarly, my wife was raised by a Catholic mother and a Methodist father. She doesn't have a high opinion of the Catholic church.

 

We've talked it over. She doesn't seem very open to another try of it. I'm wondering if that might be the direction for me to push us in.

[Dont Taze Me Bro]

There is no answer to the OP.  There is no right denomination.  You just need to find a group of people you like to hang with.  Sometimes that might be a non denominational type of church.

I agree and disagree with this Chip.  Baptist churches typically have extremists (i.e. hell fire/brimstone) and a lot of members are extremely judgmental.  Lutherans/Episcopalian are more accepting, less judgmental imo.  I do agree that a lot of people seem to find comfort and acceptance in a non-denominational church, from friends that have told me.

[Dont Taze Me Bro]

What a thorough post. Many, many thanks for the help.

 

You're right, I make them just as uncomfortable as they make me. I know it. And I am empathetic enough to know that we simply have a difference of opinion. I long ago stopped trying to "convince" Christians to believe in evolution. I'm not out to change anyone's mind. Just looking for a place to fit in.

 

 

When I was in undergrad, some of my favorite classes were the religious studies. I had a FABULOUS class on Jesus in the four gospels. We studied it ONLY from a historical stand point, analyzing what we knew to be fact. It was incredibly entertaining to study each gospel from the standpoint of whom the intended audience was, when they were written, potential biases, etc. I loved the scholarly aspect of it. I always appreciate new reading material on faith. Thanks a ton.

Trust me, from personal experience.......you make them uncomfortable only because they are not willing to open their eyes and mind and are arrogant, judgmental if anything goes against their beliefs.  Anything that threatens/questions their interpretation of the bible is labeled and pushed away.  

 

Like I said, in their eyes, my dad was was a bad person because he worked at the liquor store and sold alcohol.  I wonder sometimes how they can even call themselves christian the way they treat others.  

[twa]

 

Like I said, in their eyes, my dad was was a bad person because he worked at the liquor store and sold alcohol.  I wonder sometimes how they can even call themselves christian the way they treat others.  

 

because they actually stand for things?

selling liquor violates many of their church covenants,just as drinking does....perhaps you confuse bad person with bad actions?

 I certainly don't fault them for disapproving of my drinking,though obviously I hold a different opinion.

[chipwhich]

I agree and disagree with this Chip.  Baptist churches typically have extremists (i.e. hell fire/brimstone) and a lot of members are extremely judgmental.  Lutherans/Episcopalian are more accepting, less judgmental imo.  I do agree that a lot of people seem to find comfort and acceptance in a non-denominational church, from friends that have told me.

 

Being the non judgemental type, I guess I found the Baptists quick to sell the agenda and express anger towards open views.

 

I think most churches nowadays are pushing towards the modern day ills agenda rather than the bible.

[dchogs]

could you go about it from the other direction? ask folks that you work with/go to school with where they go to church.

[Mocountyskins]

I'm not religious at all and I'm sure that you will be able to tell from what I'm going to say but, if you really do just see the bible as metaphors for ways how to live a good life and you do not take the bible literally, then what is even the point of going to church because sounds to me like you have everything you need if you have the book? Then again I'm not religious and my family is very far from religious, I don't even know what the first sentence in the bible is, so maybe I don't understand how you think. So if you know the stories and the hidden messages and learn from those I don't even see the point of going to church.

 

My mom did take us to church a few times when we were 13 so that we could make up our own mind on what to believe and we went to a Unitarian church (not sure if its a cult or something because the people there are really nice and even non religious people went there and it was NOT all about "praise god" it was about being kind to people even if they were different so it sounded culty, I stoped going when they talked about how Osama bin laden could have been a kid that didn't get a lot of hugs from his dad so that's why he wanted to hurt people and not to judge him (found that insulting)) http://www.uua.org/ other then that they were nice people that sang songs from the bible and stuff but their number one rule was to accept everyone so I guess they were nice. But I only went a few times and I really don't know what the bible says so I am really clueless about this subject.

 

These were their nutty rules..and I say nutty because they don't sound like any normal religious people.

 

1. 1st Principle: The inherent worth and dignity of every person;
2. 2nd Principle: Justice, equity and compassion in human relations;
3. 3rd Principle: Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in our congregations;
4. 4th Principle: A free and responsible search for truth and meaning;
5. 5th Principle: The right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within our congregations and in society at large;
6. 6th Principle: The goal of world community with peace, liberty, and justice for all;
7. 7th Principle: Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part.

 

There is one near college park because that's the one I went to a few times. its on new hamp ave in silver spring