JamesMadisonSkins Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 I'm enjoying the fake picks we are trading for a fake first rounder after our fake trade of Cousins. That's good stuff. Hey, just trying to be optimistic. I really do think we'll get a 2nd if not more for Cousins. Just too many teams that need QBs and not enough draft-able prospects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZRagone Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 I think it's a relatively fair comparison ... but I will add that the reason many of those players aren't seeing the field is because the person starting ahead of them on the depth chart is playing well. The Pats are 10-4 ... the Redskins are 3-11 ... at this point, no one on this roster is safe (obviously, Griff), yet none of those guys are seeing the field! Quite possibly, but you made it pretty clear in the original post I was responding to that excuses don't cut it. Richard Crawford, for example, could be a guy you could legitimately say would've been making an impact on this team this year...but can't because he got injured. That made him non-impact, even if it's a legitimate fluke thing that's not the fault of the personnel management staff. Similarly, the fact that New England drafted a guy at a position that was already filled by a player producing isn't an excuse for that draft pick not making an impact. And as you indicated by including things like the missing 3rd rounder for Jarmon or the missing 1sts for RG3....it's as much about not getting value out of a draft pick as it is about the player themselves. I get your point with them being better than us, but you took a very "no excuses" approach so I was sticking to that. I can't do the other three you said right now, but I'll give it a whirl a bit later if I can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesMadisonSkins Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 Understand. I was someone trumpeting some of those draft picks just a year ago ... and injuries really do make it hard to assess some of the picks. Crawford, Robinson, P. Thomas could all end up as big impacts next year. I think I am just getting hung up on the fact that we have all these picks and very few of them are seeing the field for a bad team. Just makes you wonder. Especially since it was pretty much known that Shanny had to hit on as many draft picks as possible after taking over an old and decrepit team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rakpwned427 Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 Thanks for this! Per the criteria of the poster I was responding to, the REASONS aaron hernadez didn't contribute an impact (on the field at least) to the 2013 Patriots is irrelevant. All that matters if he provided an on the field impact or not, and he didn't. Thanks for catching that on Cannon, though looking at the depth chart again it's RT not RG. I'm going to update my post. I'll do the same for Harmon as well as I look at the stat lines a little closer. Meant to edit my post that Cannon was an RT (he is a beast of a man). I get why you didnt include Hernandez. Sorry about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laron Burgundy Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 Understand. I was someone trumpeting some of those draft picks just a year ago ... and injuries really do make it hard to assess some of the picks. Crawford, Robinson, P. Thomas could all end up as big impacts next year. I think I am just getting hung up on the fact that we have all these picks and very few of them are seeing the field for a bad team. Just makes you wonder. Especially since it was pretty much known that Shanny had to hit on as many draft picks as possible after taking over an old and decrepit team. I think it's an utter lack of perspective that makes people complain about shanny's draft record. At this point shanny has nailed more first rounders than Seattle's regime, despite Seattle having 2 more first round picks. Likewise their late round drafting is pretty similar. How can we be so much worse then?! Easy, it takes more than 4 years to build a team and Seattle has done better in fa and trades. I think I did a count of remaining roster players from 2009 still in the nfl and the redskins had 13. Comparatively the 1 win 2009 rams have 18. There's just no denying how poor the roster was that was given to shanahan, so of course that will take some time to turn around. Likewise, any new head coach that comes in should be thankful for this regime's drafting. We now have a base to build around, shanny was not given that benefit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98ORAKPO98 Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 I think it's an utter lack of perspective that makes people complain about shanny's draft record. At this point shanny has nailed more first rounders than Seattle's regime, despite Seattle having 3 more first round picks. Likewise their late round drafting is pretty similar. How can we be so much worse then?! Easy, it takes more than 4 years to build a team and Seattle has done better in fa and trades. I think I did a count of remaining roster players from 2009 still in the nfl and the redskins had 13. Comparatively the 1 win 2009 rams have 18. There's just no denying how poor the roster was that was given to shanahan, so of course that will take some time to turn around. Likewise, any new head coach that comes in should be thankful for this regime's drafting. We now have a base to build around, shanny was not given that benefit. I would have to agree with this mans assessment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Epochalypse Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 I think it's an utter lack of perspective that makes people complain about shanny's draft record. At this point shanny has nailed more first rounders than Seattle's regime, despite Seattle having 2 more first round picks. Likewise their late round drafting is pretty similar. How can we be so much worse then?! Easy, it takes more than 4 years to build a team and Seattle has done better in fa and trades. I think I did a count of remaining roster players from 2009 still in the nfl and the redskins had 13. Comparatively the 1 win 2009 rams have 18. There's just no denying how poor the roster was that was given to shanahan, so of course that will take some time to turn around. Likewise, any new head coach that comes in should be thankful for this regime's drafting. We now have a base to build around, shanny was not given that benefit. Our 2009 Redskins... Albright – out of NFL Alexander – LB ARIZONA CARDINALS Alridge – out of NFL Barnes – out of NFL Bartel – out of NFL Batiste – out of NFL Betts – out of NFL Blades – out of NFL Bowen – out of NFL Campbell – QB CLEVELAND BROWNS Carter – backup DE NE PATRIOTS Cartwright – out of NFL Collins – out of NFL Cooley – out of NFL Daniels – out of NFL Davis – backup TE WASHINGTON REDSKINS Dockery – out of NFL Doughty – S WASHINGTON REDSKINS Fanaika – G ARIZONA CARDINALS Fletcher – LB WASHINGTON REDSKINS Gano – K CAROLINA PANTHERS Ganther – out of NFL Gatewood – out of NFL Glenn – out of NFL Golston – backup DE WASHINGTON REDSKINS Griffin – out of NFL Hall – CB WASHINGTON REDSKINS Haynesworth – out of NFL Henson – out of NFL Heyer – out of NFL Hill – out of NFL Holmes – out of NFL Horton – out of NFL Jackson – backup LB WASHINGTON REDSKINS Jarmon – out of NFL Jones – out of NFL Kelly – out of NFL Landry – S INDIANAPOLIS COLTS Mason – out of NFL McCauley – out of NFL McIntosh – backup LB DETROIT LIONS Mitchell – out of NFL Montgomery – out of NFL Montgomery – C WASHINGTON REDSKINS Moore – out of NFL Moss – back up WR WASHINGTON REDSKINS Orakpo – LB WASHINGTON REDSKINS Pakulak – out of NFL Paulescu – out of NFL Portis – out of NFL Rabach – out of NFL Randle El – out of NFL Rinehart – G SD CHARGERS Robinson – out of NFL Rogers – CB SF 49ERS Samuels – out of NFL Sellers- out of NFL Smith – out of NFL Smoot – out of NFL Suisham – K PITTSBURGH STEELERS Thomas –out of NFL Thomas – out of NFL Tryon – out of NFL Westbrook – out of NFL Williams – out of NFL Williams – out of NFL Williams – out of NFL Wilson – out of NFL Wynn – out of NFL Yoder - out of NFL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pedro Posted December 17, 2013 Share Posted December 17, 2013 Coaching is an issue when discussing guys not developing. Perry Riley improved massively with Spanos (and our overall LB play was improved). With Slowik not so much. Competent coaching matters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laron Burgundy Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 Our 2009 Redskins... I was using the final roster and IR list, which is less than the 70 players you listed, including two kickers still in the league. Regardless, it is pretty dang poor to have only Orakpo and Jackson as decent draft picks from the previous regime. You could argue Landry and Rogers, but they both wanted out of DC and neither really lived up to their draft status. Part of our problem is some of the leftovers from that 2009 team NEED to be out of the league, and our FA acquisitions under the previous regime (Fletcher, Moss) were old when Shanny got here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98ORAKPO98 Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 I was using the final roster and IR list, which is less than the 70 players you listed, including two kickers still in the league. Regardless, it is pretty dang poor to have only Orakpo and Jackson as decent draft picks from the previous regime. You could argue Landry and Rogers, but they both wanted out of DC and neither really lived up to their draft status. Part of our problem is some of the leftovers from that 2009 team NEED to be out of the league, and our FA acquisitions under the previous regime (Fletcher, Moss) were old when Shanny got here. So would you recommend keeping Shanny for next season and letting him fulfill his 5 year shanaplan? If so do you think all the coordinators should be brought back with him? Also, did I mention your sig is sweet and looks really good on you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laron Burgundy Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 So would you recommend keeping Shanny for next season and letting him fulfill his 5 year shanaplan? If so do you think all the coordinators should be brought back with him? Also, did I mention your sig is sweet and looks really good on you? And that's what I hate. I don't have a shanahanswer for that. It honestly depends how the locker room really feels. I don't know how much of this is purely media, as we're not really privy to the inside workings of the team. Do the players want him gone? Get rid of him then. It won't work out next year if the players really do hate him. If the players are fine with it, then let him stay. I think we'll see Shanahan's career here similar to Schwartz's in Detroit, and that is what happens when you inherit really bad rosters. What I know is that this roster is FAR better and younger than the 2009 roster he inherited. In 4 years you'll likely still see twice as many of these guys on nfl rosters than the guys we had 4 years ago. But apparently kyle doesn't want to coach under his dad any more, so we couldn't keep the whole staff anyways, and I'd rather keep Kyle and promote him to HC (he won't insist on full personnel control, not that Shanny has been awful in that role). Haslett needs to go. There's not much to say about that, but we'll never have a good defense with him. We need a new special teams coach but more importantly we need a new special teams. Those guys clearly don't want to play, they need a coach that gets them fired up and we need to sign some vet minimum safeties and linebackers who realize how important their play is in controlling field position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 So 2011 was by far the best draft, but they also had the most picks to hit on. 2010 was a joke, in terms of its impact on 2013, outside of Williams and Riley, no one else from that draft was on the field this year (either as a pick or as a trade target). 2012 is also a joke outside of RGIII, Alf and Cousins. None of the other mid-round or late-round picks saw the field this year in any significant time. It's hard to judge the 2013 draft this early ... especially with some of the injuries, but you still had just TWO flippin players from the draft have significant playing time this year. Reed is a solid pick, but he can't stay healthy. We don't have an accurate assessment of 2012 and certainly not for 2013. But I think those classes are going to end up being good. Getting RGIII and Morris and a legit trade asset in Cousins in 2012 was a good haul. I liked the 2013 class too. 2011 was an awful class. Twelve picks and Kerrigan is the only good player we got out of the class. Jenkins, Helu, Paul, Robinson, and Hankerson haven't done **** yet except provide us with a bunch of replacement level bodies that we can't wait to upgrade. Jenkins still has potential I guess. I think he and Kerrigan are the only ones that will end up surviving the regime change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 And that's what I hate. I don't have a shanahanswer for that. It honestly depends how the locker room really feels. I don't know how much of this is purely media, as we're not really privy to the inside workings of the team. Do the players want him gone? Get rid of him then. It won't work out next year if the players really do hate him. If the players are fine with it, then let him stay. I think we'll see Shanahan's career here similar to Schwartz's in Detroit, and that is what happens when you inherit really bad rosters. What I know is that this roster is FAR better and younger than the 2009 roster he inherited. In 4 years you'll likely still see twice as many of these guys on nfl rosters than the guys we had 4 years ago. But apparently kyle doesn't want to coach under his dad any more, so we couldn't keep the whole staff anyways, and I'd rather keep Kyle and promote him to HC (he won't insist on full personnel control, not that Shanny has been awful in that role). Haslett needs to go. There's not much to say about that, but we'll never have a good defense with him. We need a new special teams coach but more importantly we need a new special teams. Those guys clearly don't want to play, they need a coach that gets them fired up and we need to sign some vet minimum safeties and linebackers who realize how important their play is in controlling field position. This post is completely tone deaf. Shanahan is gone man. Having him here is toxic. His regime is a farce now. And Kyle Shanahan would be an awful hire for HC. This roster isn't particularly talented compared to 2009 except at QB. Shanny's failed projects are going to bounce around the league and wash out the same as Gibbs's and Vinny's did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Robert Griffin Experience Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 Here's our keepers: QB: Griffin RB: Morris FB: Young WR: Garcon TE: Reed LT: Williams DE/OLB: Orakpo DE/DT: Cofield DE/OLB: Maybe Kerrigan CB: Amerson CB: Hall 11/22 starters that need immediate upgrades, a few of our quality guys are at an age that will be replaced soon, and not much depth behind them. The main difference is that our main guys are young, and hopefully the new regime won't mismanage those assets. Whoever comes here pretty much needs to hit 2 offseasons out of the park to turn us into a SB contender, though if RGIII gets back to his 2012 trajectory, we won't need a great team around him to win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinny21 Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 This post is completely tone deaf. Shanahan is gone man. Having him here is toxic. His regime is a farce now. And Kyle Shanahan would be an awful hire for HC. This roster isn't particularly talented compared to 2009 except at QB. Shanny's failed projects are going to bounce around the league and wash out the same as Gibbs's and Vinny's did. To fans and media, you're right that Shanahan is a joke right now. LG has a point though that if the players believe Shanahan is doing a good job and they've let him down (and want him back), then who cares what the outside world thinks? On the flip side, what's Snyder going to do, poll the players? Probably best to break it off and start fresh. Let a new regime come in with almost a full draft and a good amount of cap space. Hopefully the learning curve of a new staff/system doesn't set us back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rakpwned427 Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 Here's our keepers: QB: Griffin RB: Morris FB: Young WR: Garcon TE: Reed LT: Williams DE/OLB: Orakpo DE/DT: Cofield DE/OLB: Maybe Kerrigan CB: Amerson CB: Hall 11/22 starters that need immediate upgrades, a few of our quality guys are at an age that will be replaced soon, and not much depth behind them. The main difference is that our main guys are young, and hopefully the new regime won't mismanage those assets. Whoever comes here pretty much needs to hit 2 offseasons out of the park to turn us into a SB contender, though if RGIII gets back to his 2012 trajectory, we won't need a great team around him to win. Can I ask why the "maybe" kerrigan? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinny21 Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 Here's our keepers: QB: Griffin RB: Morris FB: Young WR: Garcon TE: Reed LT: Williams DE/OLB: Orakpo DE/DT: Cofield DE/OLB: Maybe Kerrigan CB: Amerson CB: Hall 11/22 starters that need immediate upgrades, a few of our quality guys are at an age that will be replaced soon, and not much depth behind them. The main difference is that our main guys are young, and hopefully the new regime won't mismanage those assets. Whoever comes here pretty much needs to hit 2 offseasons out of the park to turn us into a SB contender, though if RGIII gets back to his 2012 trajectory, we won't need a great team around him to win. Depends in part on defensive scheme - I think Jenkins and Baker could be solid players if used properly. Riley as well. Also looking forward to getting some young guys back from injury. They might be depth ATM, but I think there is some starting potential from some of them. A new staff can't count on them though with so little film on them, which is unfortunate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Momma There Goes That Man Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 The thing is you don't need studs at every position. Every team has average players but the good-great teams have a few more impact players than we do whether they are stars or not. I don't think our roster is that far off. The 11 mentioned above that we can keep is a great start. If through the draft and FA we can snag 4-5 total new starters which shouldn't be hard considering the cap space we have and we could potentially end up with an extra 2nd if we trade Cousins. That would be a pretty good roster IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Robert Griffin Experience Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 Can I ask why the "maybe" kerrigan? Because Ryan Kerrigan isn't that good. A+ instincts, B talent. Orakpo draws the bulk of the defensive attention and creates the bulk of the disruption, and Kerrigan just cleans up - the thing is that Rob Jackson could do a lot of what Kerrigan does. If only Rak had Ryan's instincts, he'd be the best pass rusher in football. Jenkins is ideally a rotational guy, not an established starter. Same with Baker. Riley sucks. Backup quality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesMadisonSkins Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 To be a bit more positive I would say: Offense (7): QB: RGIII RB: Alfred Morris FB: Darrel Young WR: Pierre Garcon TE: Jordan Reed LT: Trent Williams OG: Gettis/LeReibus/Compton (one will step up) 4-3 Defense (9): DE: Orakpo DT: Cofield DT: Jenkins DE: Kerrigan OLB: Riley OLB: Robinson or Jenkins or Jackson - (one will step up) CB: Amerson CB: Hall SS: Thomas So going into 2014 off-season you're looking at needing MAJOR upgrades at 6 positions assuming you keep guys in-house: DEF: MLB, FS on defense (with depth needed) OFF: WR2, LG, OC, RT Intangibles: CB Depth, DL Depth, Slot WR, Punter, PR/KR I have faith that with $48 million free (after cuts) you can re-sign the guys I have above and, whether through FA or the draft, get those 6 guys. Draft (at least 2, as many as 4) 2nd round pick 3rd round pick 4th round pick or 2nd + 3rd if Cousins is traded for that value Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98ORAKPO98 Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 To be a bit more positive I would say: Offense (7): QB: RGIII RB: Alfred Morris FB: Darrel Young WR: Pierre Garcon TE: Jordan Reed LT: Trent Williams OG: Gettis/LeReibus/Compton (one will step up) 4-3 Defense (9): DE: Orakpo DT: Cofield DT: Jenkins DE: Kerrigan OLB: Riley OLB: Robinson or Jenkins or Jackson - (one will step up) CB: Amerson CB: Hall SS: Thomas So going into 2014 off-season you're looking at needing MAJOR upgrades at 6 positions assuming you keep guys in-house: DEF: MLB, FS on defense (with depth needed) OFF: WR2, LG, OC, RT Intangibles: CB Depth, DL Depth, Slot WR, Punter, PR/KR I have faith that with $48 million free (after cuts) you can re-sign the guys I have above and, whether through FA or the draft, get those 6 guys. Draft (at least 2, as many as 4) 2nd round pick 3rd round pick 4th round pick or 2nd + 3rd if Cousins is traded for that value Who do you cut to created that cap space? Carriker and Bowen? Anyone else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesMadisonSkins Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 Who do you cut to created that cap space? Carriker and Bowen? Anyone else? The $48 million? - Adam Carriker ($4.7m), Chris Chester ($3m), Will Montgomery ($2.5m), Kory Lichtensteiger ($2.5m), Sav Rocca ($1.2m) That is $13.9 million ... which is on top of the roughly $36 million the team has in cap space with the newly adjusted $126 million cap projection So nothing major, assuming the plans all along are to bring in 3 OL replacements/upgrades ... those three OL-men become more expendable, especially with the young depth that exists at the position Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesMadisonSkins Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 McShay's mock draft today: 1. Teddy Bridgwater to Houston 3. Blake Bortles to Oakland 4. Johnny Manziel to Jacksonville 6. Derek Carr to Cleveland That seems like a lot of "junk" Qbs going early, considering their ranks by the ESPN scout grades Bridgewater 8th, Bortles 14th, Manziel 20th, and Carr somewhere around 76th. That also doesn't include the Vikings who pick 8th, who he has taking an OLB because there's no one left at QB to take there, though I'd justify that should be the concern with Oakland at #3 too hah *Edit: McShay has Kelvin Benjamin going #27 to Carolina. Browns have the 23rd pick as of now. Would love that pick for Cousins, and take Benjamin there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rakpwned427 Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 The $48 million? - Adam Carriker ($4.7m), Chris Chester ($3m), Will Montgomery ($2.5m), Kory Lichtensteiger ($2.5m), Sav Rocca ($1.2m) That is $13.9 million ... which is on top of the roughly $36 million the team has in cap space with the newly adjusted $126 million cap projection So nothing major, assuming the plans all along are to bring in 3 OL replacements/upgrades ... those three OL-men become more expendable, especially with the young depth that exists at the position Suppose we stick with the 3-4, how would you feel about drafting McCullers and shifting Cofield outside. I assume Jenkins will hold the other DE spot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesMadisonSkins Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 Suppose we stick with the 3-4, how would you feel about drafting McCullers and shifting Cofield outside. I assume Jenkins will hold the other DE spot. Yeah that would be great. That was what I was hoping for before people on here swayed me toward the 4-3 with our personnel. My guess would be to draft a NT like McCullers in the 2nd or 3rd ... back him up with Chris Baker ... and have Jenkins/Cofield with Bowen and another cheap FA addition rotating in. Then you just bring back who you've got (Orakpo, Riley) and ensure that Robinson can nail down the other ILB spot, or go get a FA like Pat Angerer for relatively good value Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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