DM72 Posted April 8, 2017 Share Posted April 8, 2017 Funny. The only time a triple double is watered down is when somebody you don't like gets one. Steve, your hate for Russ is about as bad as Skip Bayless' hate for LeBron. Nothing Russ do is going to impress you. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaceman Spiff Posted April 8, 2017 Share Posted April 8, 2017 24 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said: Saying a rebound is a rebound is like saying a field goal is a field goal. It's not true. Some take a great deal more skill to create and make than others. This is true of rebounding too. Good rebounders excel at getting tough rebounds--coming down with them in traffic and against superior numbers and getting clutch boards. Except it's not. A field goal inside the arc is worth two points. A shot from the outside is worth three. There aren't any points awarded for degree of difficulty outside of those basic rules. Kobe didn't get more points for a sick reverse layup after crossing up a defender. A 5 foot bank shot from a backup center in garbage time is worth the same. Kobe got on Sportscenter highlight reels but that's about it. I don't disagree with your assessment of rebounders, there's certainly an art and a technique to it. However the garbage rebound that Westbrook gets is worth exactly the same as what Steven Adams would get. One rebound. What's next, adjusting three point percentage shooting for someone that hikes a half court shot at the buzzer? That's not a real attempt, right? That said, I don't totally disagree with your assessment in points 1 and 2, you make a good argument. I would lightly argue, however, that the ball might be better in the hands of Westbrook racing up court off a rebound if his bigs aren't good at throwing outlet passes. I have no idea if that's the case and I'm assuming that if you're a big man in the NBA you're somewhat competent at outlet passes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Sinister Posted April 8, 2017 Share Posted April 8, 2017 1 hour ago, MLSKINS said: I saw that video complaining about Westbrook and his rebounds and whatnot... It's easy to see why they allow Westbrook to get the ball first. It starts the break faster. And we all know how much he likes to attack. I kind of wish the Wizards would do that sometimes with all. I don't know how many times I've seen somebody get the ball and have to look for Wall, or get it and try to force a pass to him. When Westbrook gets the ball he's ghost... And as far as PER goes, it rarely lies. Usually if somebody has a +30 PER, they're winning the MVP. Westbrook has a 30 something. (FWIW, Curry had 31.something last year.) You go ahead. I'm done with this . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bozo the kKklown Posted April 8, 2017 Share Posted April 8, 2017 1 hour ago, Spaceman Spiff said: Probably. Also the fact that no one's done it since 1962. Oscar had no idea he had averaged a triple double until 10 years later. Its a made up, arbitrary number. It really was not a thing until the 80s. Sports fans like rounded numbers or like putting too much value on certain numbers for no reason. Westbrook is having a great season. Amazing season, but Harden and Kawhi are doing better. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Do Itch Big Posted April 8, 2017 Share Posted April 8, 2017 3 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said: Beal > Thompson. JJ Redick > Beal 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted April 8, 2017 Share Posted April 8, 2017 Mike Conley > Steph Curry 5 hours ago, DM72 said: Funny. The only time a triple double is watered down is when somebody you don't like gets one. Steve, your hate for Russ is about as bad as Skip Bayless' hate for LeBron. Nothing Russ do is going to impress you. Care to actually make any counterarguments? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted April 8, 2017 Share Posted April 8, 2017 5 hours ago, Spaceman Spiff said: Except it's not. A field goal inside the arc is worth two points. A shot from the outside is worth three. There aren't any points awarded for degree of difficulty outside of those basic rules. Kobe didn't get more points for a sick reverse layup after crossing up a defender. A 5 foot bank shot from a backup center in garbage time is worth the same. Kobe got on Sportscenter highlight reels but that's about it. You misunderstand the argument. I wasn't arguing that a difficult field goal that a player creates for themselves is worth more points than an easy one. I was arguing that the skill of being able to score off difficult, self-created shots is FAR more valuable than being able to catch a ball at the rim and dunk it. The first is the rarest skill in NBA basketball and works against a set defense in crunch time. The other is something that 100% of NBA players can do and only works against a broken defense. Being able to rebound 12 or 13 rebounds a game in the way prime Dwight Howard did it is immensely more valuable than the way Minnesota Kevin Love did it. The types of rebounds Westbrook piles up to inflate his stats are rebounds that anyone could get. They have no extra value. And in fact they hurt his team because he gets so many of them by abandoning his defensive responsibilities. As far as outleting the ball to a guard who leaks out, the kinds of outlets that John Wall takes don't seem that challenging for our players. These aren't Wes Unseld full court dimes. It's just a quick turn and then they locate John around mid court and whip him the ball. 99% of the time the defense is retreating to get back as fast as possible and the pass isn't contested at all. Our bigs are average role players who aren't known for passing. I think it's just a matter of developing chemistry and learning where the PG tends to leak out to. I watched a game recently where Doris Burke was on the call and she remarked about how John was taking the outlets at mid court as though it was unusual. And I suppose it is. Most PGs come back to the rebounder and take the ball up the whole way. But if you have a fast PG that can finish at the rim on a break against numbers, which is what Westbrook is supposed to be, it's not a big deal to short cut the break this way. Enes Kanter and Steven Adams are good player and they are both really good rebounders. I think they could absolutely clean the glass and outlet the ball to Westbrook at mid court. And I think OKC would be a lot better if they did that and Westbrook actually played defense on the perimeter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted April 8, 2017 Share Posted April 8, 2017 6 hours ago, DM72 said: Funny. The only time a triple double is watered down is when somebody you don't like gets one. Westbrook has cheapened the statistic with his shameless stat padding. When it happens organically during the course of playing good basketball, it's a neat footnote. Westbrook and OKC have made it the goal in and of itself and they play bad basketball to achieve it. They should not be rewarded for it, but the truth is that most of the mainstream sports media world doesn't actually watch or understand the NBA and they buy into the Westbrook hype based off his counting stats and they shape the narrative. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RonArtest15 Posted April 8, 2017 Author Share Posted April 8, 2017 Harden should be the MVP...won't trip if Russ wins it, but.... The next time down the floor, the Suns are just completely ignoring Westbrook when he has the ball, but he’s so desperate for the last two assists that he doesn’t take a shot on either of these occasions. Sums up his year. Stat Pad Thai. Link Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RonArtest15 Posted April 8, 2017 Author Share Posted April 8, 2017 Some food for thought also (rest of article in link)... James Harden is the unequivocal MVP Quote I know we’re supposed to act like the MVP race is really close and every one of the four top candidates has a legitimate case for the award. In most years, Kawhi Leonard, Russell Westbrook or LeBron James would be running away with it. But even in a year where historic performances are everywhere, James Harden’s is the most historic of them all. I don’t say that to diminish what the others are doing, but what Harden is doing is on another level. In fact, you can make a very solid argument that he’s having the greatest offensive season in the history of the league. Let’s look at what Harden is doing, specifically compared to the best arguments for each of the other three to see why. Harden vs. Westbrook It’s easy to look at Harden’s box score numbers and compare them with Westbrook’s and think that they’re about the same, but they’re really not for a combination of reasons. Harden vs. Westbrook Rk Player Season Age MP FG% 3P% 2P% eFG% FT% TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS 1 James Harden 2016-17 27 36.5 .447 .354 .534 .532 .848 8.0 11.3 1.5 0.4 5.8 2.6 29.5 2 Russell Westbrook 2016-17 28 34.6 .420 .336 .454 .468 .844 10.5 10.4 1.7 0.4 5.4 2.4 31.2 Provided by Basketball-Reference.com: View Original Table Generated 3/25/2017. Harden has .9 more assists, but Westbrook is averaging 1.7 more points and 2.5 more rebounds. Looks like a win for Russ, right? But this is a good example of why just raw box-score numbers can be a poor way of measuring performance. According to NBA.com, Harden is generating 27.4 points per game through his passing compared with 23.8 for Westbrook, so in sum, he’s averaging 56.9 points while Westbrook is contributing 55.0. So passing and rebounding combined, the Beard is actually accounting for more points than the Tasmanian Devil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bozo the kKklown Posted April 8, 2017 Share Posted April 8, 2017 Harden set the NBA record for most points generated by a player a couple nights ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TradeTheBeal! Posted April 8, 2017 Share Posted April 8, 2017 I'd rather have Devin Booker on my team than Westbrook. But, y'all can crown him if you want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ksun247 Posted April 8, 2017 Share Posted April 8, 2017 If not Harden, or LeBron, I'd take Kawhi Leonard for MVP. He plays on both ends of the floor and has led his team to 2nd best record in the league. Westbrook is good, but probably half of his rebound stats are just fake. His teammates move out of the way so he can get the rebound. They don't even try unless the ball comes straight to them. The assists and points I'm ok with, but the rebounds are cheap. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted April 8, 2017 Share Posted April 8, 2017 My complaint with Harden winning MVP is that he doesn't play defense either and that Kawhi Leonard's team has been significantly more successful. I've mentioned this a lot before, but the MVP almost never goes to a guy who isn't the leader of a one or two seed. It's only happened three times since the merger, and one of those times was an oddity--Moses Malone won it once for a three seed 76ers that was second in the NBA in wins, they just played in the same division as a Celtics team who led the NBA in wins. It'd break the traditional norms of the award to give it to Harden over Leonard. The closest precedent I can find for Harden winning it on a team that finished third in it's conference in wins would be Steve Nash winning it in 2006. That Phoenix team was still the two seed though, because Dallas and San Antonio were in the same division. And even still, the awards voters got it wrong that year. There wasn't an overwhelming favorite because of Kobe Bryant's lack of team success, but Dirk should have won it. His resume was better and he was a better player than Nash, Shaq, Duncan, Iverson, LeBron, and Garnett at that point. I actually see a lot of parallels between this year and that one. This season from Harden = Nash, Westbrook = Kobe/Iverson, LeBron = Shaq, Anthony Davis = LeBron, Isiah Thomas = Arenas, Durant = KG, Curry = Duncan, and Kawhi = Dirk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrypticVillain Posted April 8, 2017 Share Posted April 8, 2017 13 hours ago, Mr. Sinister said: You go ahead. I'm done with this . Find the lie Sin... Hint: There is none. ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrypticVillain Posted April 8, 2017 Share Posted April 8, 2017 I so think Harden should win if not for nothing else, his team has a better record than the Thunder and he's getting more players involved. But I know Westbrook is going to get it because of the PER. Writers will not ignore that stat and I really can't blame them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DM72 Posted April 8, 2017 Share Posted April 8, 2017 Another thing you have to understand is that the Rockets were built around Harden. OKC was built around Russ AND Durant. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Momma There Goes That Man Posted April 8, 2017 Share Posted April 8, 2017 15 hours ago, Kosher Ham said: People always forget that it is team MVP, not league MVP. That is why it has mostly been a mediocre award to me. Team MVP? It is a league award. MVP just means who had the best season in the league that year. That is the purpose of the award. It is not to determine who was most valuable to his team or which team was better without that player etc and all the other insignificant points people bring up because of the dumb little world "valuable" stuffed in there Its the league MVP, as in who was most valuable to the league, as in who had the best season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sticksboi05 Posted April 8, 2017 Share Posted April 8, 2017 Yeah Kosher I think you're mixing it up with the Hart Trophy which is the NHL player most valuable to his team. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrypticVillain Posted April 8, 2017 Share Posted April 8, 2017 I feel like we have this debate every year on what MVP means. Whether it means Most Valuable Player or Most Outstanding Player. For me, I think it's more Outstanding than Valuable simply because if it was truly "value" how can Lebron not win it every year. The same way I feel that Belicheck should win the Coach of the year award every year in the NFL. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Momma There Goes That Man Posted April 8, 2017 Share Posted April 8, 2017 10 minutes ago, MLSKINS said: I feel like we have this debate every year on what MVP means. Whether it means Most Valuable Player or Most Outstanding Player. For me, I think it's more Outstanding than Valuable simply because if it was truly "value" how can Lebron not win it every year. The same way I feel that Belicheck should win the Coach of the year award every year in the NFL. Its definitely most outstanding. It drives me crazy how people focus on "valuable" and have these long debates on who was more valuable to their team to determine a league MVP (I'm looking at you Mike and Mike) mvp just sounds better than mop which is probably where the name came from. It's why I like the Heisman. Who had the best season, all things considered. That's what all these awards are for Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bozo the kKklown Posted April 8, 2017 Share Posted April 8, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, DM72 said: Another thing you have to understand is that the Rockets were built around Harden. OKC was built around Russ AND Durant. Huh? This team is built around Russ. also, the Thunder are doing what was expected while the Rockets have exceeded expectations by a lot. Edited April 8, 2017 by BenningRoadSkin 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Do Itch Big Posted April 8, 2017 Share Posted April 8, 2017 JR Smith > Beal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted April 8, 2017 Share Posted April 8, 2017 (edited) 48 minutes ago, Dr. Do Itch Big said: JR Smith > Beal I see you poking the panda, you're not slick. Edited April 8, 2017 by Renegade7 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Momma There Goes That Man Posted April 8, 2017 Share Posted April 8, 2017 How did the panda nickname come about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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