***2021-2022 NBA Season Thread***

[Kosher Ham]

I agree and I think Wiggins and LeBron would be able to coexist on the court.

LeBron is really a 2 with his style of play, sometimes even a 1.

Wiggins can play the 2 or 3.

Love is a 4...and although he would be coached up defensively. I don't believe he will ever be truly a good defender.

 

I wil admit however that I was wrong about that one. For whatever reason they want Love that badly that they are going to trade a potential all-star to get him. I understand that Love is a star player already. I worry about the development of Wiggins and the cohesiveness of bringing in Love.

 

I would roll the dice and see if Love and LeBron can wait it out a year.

[Going Commando]

I think the Cavs really need to consider NOT making the Love trade.

 

Are you going to be able to have the depth/diversity with a Irving, Love, and Lebron max deals team to be really great?

Wiggins is potentially going to be cheap compared the equivalent depth/role player on a comparable team.

 

And the same with Bennett.

 

The only way I make the trade is if I don't think that between Wiggins and Bennet, I don't have a future top 5 NBA player and/or a combination of two top 15 NBA players.

 

Now, things change some if Love is willing to give me a discount.

 

The other thing I'd consider if I was the Cavs is a Love for Irving trade.  I think on a max deal Irving's being over paid.

 

And you wouldn't be giving up young cheap assets.

 

Bennett isn't much of an asset.  Maybe playing with LeBron elevates him a TON but I doubt it.  I think he simply lacks the talent to ever be a top 15 player.  He might not even be a worthy rotation player.  He looks like a bust.

 

Wiggins has tons of talent but, from what I saw last season, he's way too Vince Carter as opposed to LeBron James/Kevin Durant.  He looked passive and uncompetitive frankly.  Love is a top ten player, talented as he is, I'm not sure Wiggins ever gets to that point.  And he almost certainly won't be at that point while LeBron James is the best player in the world and in the midst of his title window.

 

Except for Ray Allen and early Udonis Haslem, Miami didn't really have quality depth or surrounding talent outside their big 3 and they won the East four straight seasons.  Irving and Love aren't Bosh and Wade in 2010.  But they're both certainly better than Bosh and Wade in 2013 or 2014, and they'll be good for way longer than Wade and Bosh were post 2010.  That group could win the East this season and they'd be one of the top two or three teams in the East every year for the forseeable future.

 

Love and Irving are much younger than LeBron.  LeBron will be the guy who gets old on them.

 

This really is a no brainer for Cleveland.  Question is, can GS put together an offer that beats theirs?  Or can Minny get off to a fast start and make Love happy?

Also, Irving's deal is a mini max deal.  If playing with LeBron James turns him into one of the three or four best players in the East, then he's a bargain contract.

[JoeWolf990]

Vince Carter is a HOFer, so if Wiggins is like Vince Cater then thats a great thing.

Cavs would be stupid to make this trade. They would be an inferior version of Miami.

No depth, no cap space, and no defense.

Right now they have a great cap situation because a lot of their players are on rookie deals, and Wiggins will extend Bron's career just by being a the guy to guard the top perimeter player on defense and he has top 5 player in the NBA talent.

I just dont think Love is worth that much because he isnt a good enough defender.

[RonArtest15]

You can't sit on a potential Love trade for the sake of hanging on to Wiggins.  In the NBA, it's win now.  You might overplay your hand if you procrastonate.  A love/wiggins swap benefits both teams.  It gives Cleveland on of the most skilled Big 3's in the league and it gives Minnesota a chance to rebuild properly with one of the best building blocks possible.  If I was Cleveland, this deal would have been made yesterday. 

[skinfan2k]

trade for Love.  The heat would have 2 top 5 players in the league and then kyrie.  They are getting Mike Miller and in the works to get Ray Allen.  More than enough.  I love all of you make a big deal about role players.  Last year in Miami, Bosh and Wade stunk.  Role players only play well when your top players are playing well.  

[Going Commando]

Vince Carter is a HOFer, so if Wiggins is like Vince Cater then thats a great thing.

Cavs would be stupid to make this trade. They would be an inferior version of Miami.

No depth, no cap space, and no defense.

Right now they have a great cap situation because a lot of their players are on rookie deals, and Wiggins will extend Bron's career just by being a the guy to guard the top perimeter player on defense and he has top 5 player in the NBA talent.

I just dont think Love is worth that much because he isnt a good enough defender.

Vince Carter would be a great career for Wiggins. But I was talking about the mentality and competitiveness, not production. That's the troubling part. Maybe he can learn to be more competitive and play with a better motor by playing with LeBron. But I think that's generally something that has to be innate within the player.

One thing, Wiggins is not going to be a good defender the first year or two of his career, because 19 year old rookies are never good defenders. Unless they swing a deal for a Larry Sanders or something like that, no matter what, Cleveland is going to be bad defensively next season, with or without Wiggins. They don't have the foundation in place to play good defense yet.

And if they get Love, he won't kill them defensively. Has David West or Z Bo or Carlos Boozer killed their teams defensively? Cleveland doesn't have to be Chicago or Indy or Memphis defensively to be elite either. That offense would be so good, they can win mid 55-60 games a year just by being solid on defense. Love brings a lot more to the table than he takes off. He's a great passer, a good shooter, a truly great rebounder, and a good inside finisher. He can score mid 20s PPG with efficiency and within the flow of the game without ever having to dominate the ball. He and Dirk are the premier stretch 4s in the league right now and Love is a perfect PF tandem to play with LeBron.

Love + Irving + LeBron is a better version of what Miami had the last year and a half and those teams won the East and won a ring.

My main gripe with Love was as a leader and #1 guy for a team. But in Cleveland he's an ideal second banana or super overqualified third banana.

I am really surprised that so many people think this would be a bad idea for Cleveland. I'm not even a big Love fan, but I would LOVE for the Wizards to trade for Kevin Love if we didn't have to give away one of our top two players.

[JoeWolf990]

Boozer doesnt even play in the 4th quarter of games and got amnestied, so yes he did kill them.

And West has Hibbert behind him. ZBo has Gasol.

Cleveland's offense is already pretty good, even before Bron arrived.

And that trio would get out of the east and would get blasted by all the top teams out West because of Love and Kyrie lack of defense.

[JoeWolf990]

And Wiggins will be a good defender in this league from day one just off his length and athleticism, and that he enjoys playing defense. He wont be able to guard the Durants and Melos his rookie year, but he wont embarrass himself his first year.

The other funny thing about this Love for Wiggins trade is how the media are pushing this. When Lebron went to Miami 4 years ago it was a bad thing to form "Superteams." Now the media are basically forcing this situation. Just funny how these things happen.

[PeterMP]

stevemcqueen1,

 

Well, you have to evaluate Wiggins and Bennett realistically.

 

And if you are right, then they should probably make the trade.

 

I'm just not really comfortable doing it based on the amount I've seen them.  The Cavs have talked to these guys a ton, and the current management team has now even seen them play/practice.  They have to make the decision, but to me it isn't a no brainer.

 

I think people are under estimating how good Bosh is in this thread.  I have not idea what people are doing suggesting that he's gotten significantly worse.

 

I agree that Love, Irving and Lebron is better than Wade, Bosh, and Lebron.

 

But I'm not sure it is good enough.

 

They are clearly lacking a close out defender and reliable rim protector.

 

Can they win the east?  sure

 

Can they win a championship, I'm not sure.

Edited July 18, 2014 by PeterMP

[pjfootballer]

If you're Cleveland and you have a shot at Love you take it. James/Love/Irving = likely title this year. When you have a chance at a title you take it and you worry about next year, next year.

Exactly. If I'm Cleveland, you do that deal now. Why are people so worried about 5-10 years down the road? The future is now. Cleveland has been rebuilding for the last 4 years. Why would they want to wait another 4years for Wiggins to become a "superstar" while their real superstar could win one for them now?

Too much emphasis in the NBA on superstars and not on winning championships. San Antonio has shown 5 times what a team means and the years they didn't win it, they were still a 55+ win team in contention.

As a Wizards fan, I've been watching us rebuild for 35 years. I'd do what Boston did for a title and a chance at a couple more, then to worry about another 5 years into the future. Screw the future. Win me a title now!

Edited July 18, 2014 by pjfootballer

[CrypticVillain]

Man, Love trying to check Nene or Gortat...

 

\

 

 

Now granted, the same could be for them trying to check him. However, I think they'll have a better time guarding him than he would guarding them.

But I'm getting ahead of myself... He's not even in the East yet.  

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

stevemcqueen1,

 

Well, you have to evaluate Wiggins and Bennett realistically.

 

And if you are right, then they should probably make the trade.

 

I'm just not really comfortable doing it based on the amount I've seen them.  The Cavs have talked to these guys a ton, and the current management team has now even seen them play/practice.  They have to make the decision, but to me it isn't a no brainer.

 

I think people are under estimating how good Bosh is in this thread.  I have not idea what people are doing suggesting that he's gotten significantly worse.

 

People have always underestimated how good Bosh is. And they are now wildly underestimating how good Love is. Love is exceptional. He is exceptional right now. And he is 25 freaking years old.

 

Wiggins is 19 years old and filled with wild production. And if everything goes right, one day, he will be as good as Kevin Love is right now.

 

One weird thing that has happened in sprorts over the last ten year is how in love fans have become with "potential." "Potential" seems more important to a lot of fans than "winning."

 

Yes, Wiggins has almost endless "potential." But a 19 year old rookie is going to be the third guy on a championship team unless his name is Lew Alcindor. The Cavs have four realistic years to win a title. Love gives them a chance to do that in every one of them. Wiggins could be good enough - if everything goes right - for years 3 and 4 of that window.

Man, Love trying to check Nene or Gortat...

 

 

 

If the Wizards reach the point where they are playing the Lebron/Love Cavs in the Eastern Finals, I highly doubt their strategy is going to be "Let's ride Gortat to the promised land."

[JoeWolf990]

I will put it out there, Love is not being underestimated. In fact he is being overestimated by many in hte media.

My issue with Love is that he is a terrible defender. He just cannot athletically defend guys. He has Trex arms, is actually under 6'8" and isnt laterally quick enough. Outstanding offensive player but the defense lacks.

[CrypticVillain]

If the Wizards reach the point where they are playing the Lebron/Love Cavs in the Eastern Finals, I highly doubt their strategy is going to be "Let's ride Gortat to the promised land."

lol Of course not. But I'm just saying, if either one of them gets Love on an iso...

 

 

And if you can't tell, I'm kind of hungry right now... lol

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

I will put it out there, Love is not being underestimated. In fact he is being overestimated by many in hte media.

My issue with Love is that he is a terrible defender. He just cannot athletically defend guys. He has Trex arms, is actually under 6'8" and isnt laterally quick enough. Outstanding offensive player but the defense lacks.

 

Bosh was a lazy defender on historically bad defenses in Toronto. Two years later, he's ancoring a historically great defense in Miami. In NBA history there are not a lot of guys who put up 25/10s on terrible teams AND play great defense.

 

I don't think Cleveland will ever be what the Heat were. Hell, Lebron doesn't even play defense like that any longer. But they don't have to be great. They just need to be able to get stops on occasion. I find it hard to believe that high IQ players like Love and Irving can't be average defenders if they aren't asked to carry the entire scoring load any longer.

[JoeWolf990]

Bosh was a lazy defender on historically bad defenses in Toronto. Two years later, he's ancoring a historically great defense in Miami. In NBA history there are not a lot of guys who put up 25/10s on terrible teams AND play great defense.

 

I don't think Cleveland will ever be what the Heat were. Hell, Lebron doesn't even play defense like that any longer. But they don't have to be great. They just need to be able to get stops on occasion. I find it hard to believe that high IQ players like Love and Irving can't be average defenders if they aren't asked to carry the entire scoring load any longer.

Chris Bosh is 6'10" and long.

Kevin Love is 6'7" and has TRex arms. (for a power forward)

[RonArtest15]

Lebron is turning 30 and is in "win-now" mode.  Cavaliers realize this.  The trade with Love WILL happen.  The great thing about having Lebron on the roster is that other players will want to come to Cleveland to play.  This is EXACTLY what we're seeing with Love.  Before James said he was going back to the Cavs, Love said he wouldn't consider signing long-term with the team.  Lebron changes everything.  Love is only 25.  He's nearing his prime and is one of the 3 best PFs in the league.  Take advantage of Lebron being near the pinnacle of his game right now.  Why sit on an asset when it can net you a return that would pay dividends IMMEDIATELY? 

[DCranon21]

Boozer got partial waiver claimed by the Lakers.  Not sure why they'd do it when they just drafted Julius Randle, but whatever.

 

I'm not getting that pickup either, but whatever. Also the Lakers don't even have their 2015 1st round pick after the season, they only picked up the Rockets 2015 with the Lin trade. Welp, guess I have to deal with another year of missing the playoffs and I'm actually fine with it. Time to usher a new era in.

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

Hey man...you have Booze now!!! lol

He's the most entertaining player in the league for these reasons

1) he colors his hair with odd sharpie stuff lol

2) he yells random **** during games like "Grab that ****!!" "Damn it" "give me that ****!!!"

3) he's literally the laziest human being alive. His 100% effort is a normal player's 3%

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Chris Bosh is 6'10" and long.

Kevin Love is 6'7" and has TRex arms. (for a power forward)

 

I want to read your critique's of Bosh in 2010.

[Warhead36]

Hey man...you have Booze now!!! lol

He's the most entertaining player in the league for these reasons

1) he colors his hair with odd sharpie stuff lol

2) he yells random **** during games like "Grab that ****!!" "Damn it" "give me that ****!!!"

3) he's literally the laziest human being alive. His 100% effort is a normal player's 3%

Yeah I remember watching vs the Wiz in the playoffs. He is an absolute dog now. He used to be pretty good, but he is horse manure x 100 at this point.

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

Boozer doesnt even play in the 4th quarter of games and got amnestied, so yes he did kill them

 

Yeah, basically.  Bulls could hide Boozer as long as they had good defenders around him.  But he couldn't share the floor with premier shooters like Kyle Korver or Mike Dunleavy and still have Boozer on the floor at the same time.  The defense would fall apart.

 

So last season it was Dunleavy or DJ Augustin and Taj Gibson.  Or Kirk Hinrich and Boozer.  Add in that Boozer can't hit his mid range jumper while contested anymore and he just didn't fit the team.  Too poor defensively to pair him with shooters to free up space for his shot.  Fading offensive ability meant he couldn't score when paired with the necessary defenders.

 

If the Bulls had Trevor Ariza instead of Mike Dunleavy last season, Ariza could have played alongside Boozer, and the Bulls might have been able to trade Boozer's contract instead of amnestying him.

[JoeWolf990]

I want to read your critique's of Bosh in 2010.

you wouldnt have read one from me, Ive always been a Bosh fan.

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

Bosh was a lazy defender on historically bad defenses in Toronto. Two years later, he's ancoring a historically great defense in Miami. In NBA history there are not a lot of guys who put up 25/10s on terrible teams AND play great defense.

 

Yup.  Although I don't really want to say he "anchored" the Miami D.  His job wasn't really rim protecting like Hibbert or Dwight Howard.  Miami's defense revolved around super mobility.  And he's one of the few Bigs in the league who can sprint out and contest 3's to the weak side, or aggressively jump out on pick and rolls and then still recover to the rolling big man.

Chris Bosh is 6'10" and long.

Kevin Love is 6'7" and has TRex arms. (for a power forward)

 

Pretty sure Love measured in at 6'8 in socks.  So he's a bit taller than you give him credit for.  However, the guy is at least very stout and is great with positioning.  On defense he can prevent his man from getting near the hoop, his man won't be able to post up down low.  But they need a rim protector to cover for him.

 

That's the biggest reason why the two quality bigs in Minny didn't work out.  They both have the same strengths and the same weaknesses on D.  Neither can protect the rim.

 

Just a random theoretical, if the Pacers could somehow swap David West for Kevin Love...that teams a better contender than they ever have been before.  Even with Lance Stephenson gone.

[Predicto]

I am really surprised that so many people think this would be a bad idea for Cleveland. I'm not even a big Love fan, but I would LOVE for the Wizards to trade for Kevin Love if we didn't have to give away one of our top two players.

 

I would trade either of the Wizards' top two players for a 25 year old Kevin Love.  Wall would be tough, but I probably would do it anyway.  If you are talking Beal instead of Wall, I'd make that trade fast that the tarmac on Interstate 76 between DC and Cleveland would catch on fire.

 

 

I also don't know where the idea keeps coming from that Love can't play any defense in any scheme.   No, he's not a rim protector, but he's strong and smart, he can body up, and if you miss your shot, you never get a second shot because he will get the rebound.   Preventing second shots is part of defense.  Plenty of strong defensive teams have a player like that at PF.  Memphis has Zach Randolph, who has short arms and is a mediocre defender on his own, and they are a defensive juggernaut.  The Warriors have David Lee, who is a liability on defense for all the same reasons as Love (except even more so), and they were third in the NBA in defensive efficiency.   The Chicago Bulls started Carlos freaking Boozer at PF last year, and played defense like the Bulls all year long.  

 

If you have a stopper, and a rim protector, you can scheme a defense that covers for a great offensive player with defensive flaws.  Lebron is that stopper.  If they get a good rim protector behind Love, they will be fine.  

 

To be honest, I think I would be much more worried about Kyrie's lack of defense than Love's.   Kyrie not only lacks defensive skills, he just doesn't care about defense.

Edited July 18, 2014 by Predicto