***2021-2022 NBA Season Thread***

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

If I am the Hornets I trade up to a top 15 and with their second pick take tj warren

 

How are they getting into the Top 15?

[JoeWolf990]

I'm not surprised you disagree. I'm not sure you've ever posted a single thing I've agreed with.

That sucks for you, friend

 

 

First off, I've said all along that Duncan was the greatest player of his era. I wasn't waiting for him to win another ring to pounce.

Great, unfortunately it was still incorrect.

Dirk's a greater player than Kobe too FWIW.

make sure we all save this. This dude did actually say this.

Second, Kobe was not 1A on those Lakers teams with Shaq. He was absolutely #2. Even Kobe referred to himself as Shaq's sidekick.

no, Kobe was 1a. First year, it was Shaq's team by far and Kobe was the sidekick.

The next two years the Lakers do not get out of the Western Conference were it not for Kobe. In fact in the 2001 western conference playoffs, Kobe lead the Lakers in scoring. Greg Popovich was on record saying he feared Kobe. Why? Because Kobe torched a perennial first team All Defense player in Bruce Bowen.

Kobe's vs Shaq's numbers in the 2001 WCF playoffs

Kobe (11g): 31.6 PTS (.577 TS%), 7.0 REB, 6.2 AST, 1.6 STL, 0.5 BLK, 3.0 TOV

Shaq (11g): 29.3 PTS (.558 TS%), 15.3 REB, 2.5 AST, 0.5 STL, 1.9 BLK, 3.4 TOV

Third, Duncan's minutes have declined steadily over the years but not his level of play. His scoring role has lessened over the past four or five seasons or so, but Duncan TODAY is a top 20 player.

Right, so Duncan's scoring load has lessened. Not the #1 option anymore. His minutes have declined, but sure lets say he is better than Kobe during that period who at his very worse was a top 5 player in the entire league.

Duncan's peak was better than Kobe's too. He was indisputably the best player in the game when he won his MVPs. In what season has Kobe ever been the best player in the game?

Kobe averaged 35 a game at his peak and should have one of Nash's MVPs.

[Momma There Goes That Man]

Dirk's a greater player than Kobe

Duncan's peak was better than Kobe's too. He was indisputably the best player in the game when he won his MVPs. In what season has Kobe ever been the best player in the game?

This is horrifically wrong. No way is Dirk a better player than Kobe.

Also it could be argued 04-07 Kobe was the best player in the league and he deserved an MVP or two during that time. His 08 MVP was more of a makeup gift for not giving it to him during this run.

This just reeks of Kobe hate and revisionist history. 04-07 Kobe was pretty amazing.

[Going Commando]

Nuggets have a trade offer on the table as of yesterday morning for Kevin Love for Kenneth Faried and Wilson Chandler.

As much as the thought of Kevin Love and Lawson on the floor together gets me gitty, I really don't want to give up Manimal. He's my favorite nba player

Manimal is awesome. He's one of my favorite NBA players too. You can tell he's a genuinely good dude. I wish the Wizards had picked him instead of Chris Singleton. Kawhi Leonard and Manimal will haunt us for the rest of their careers.

Love, OTOH, seems like a big douche.

I'm not sure Denver is the right fit for Love. Love needs to go to a team where he can be a beta personality/player IMO. He's a ****ty leader.

[Momma There Goes That Man]

That sucks for you, friend

Great, unfortunately it was still incorrect.

make sure we all save this. This dude did actually say this.

no, Kobe was 1a. First year, it was Shaq's team by far and Kobe was the sidekick.

The next two years the Lakers do not get out of the Western Conference were it not for Kobe. In fact in the 2001 western conference playoffs, Kobe lead the Lakers in scoring. Greg Popovich was on record saying he feared Kobe. Why? Because Kobe torched a perennial first team All Defense player in Bruce Bowen.

Kobe's vs Shaq's numbers in the 2001 WCF playoffs

Kobe (11g): 31.6 PTS (.577 TS%), 7.0 REB, 6.2 AST, 1.6 STL, 0.5 BLK, 3.0 TOV

Shaq (11g): 29.3 PTS (.558 TS%), 15.3 REB, 2.5 AST, 0.5 STL, 1.9 BLK, 3.4 TOV

Right, so Duncan's scoring load has lessened. Not the #1 option anymore. His minutes have declined, but sure lets say he is better than Kobe during that period who at his very worse was a top 5 player in the entire league.

Kobe averaged 35 a game at his peak and should have one of Nash's MVPs.

Great points, left a lot of that out. Kobe dominated the Western playoffs yearly against rivals like the Spurs and Kings which is where the real Finals were decided. Anyone that watched that knew he was far from a sidekick

Also, if he is going to pull quotes like Kobe saying he was Shaqs sidekick let's pull quotes from Shaq in the playoffs when Shaq said postgame that Kobe was his idol and the best player in the NBA,

I know Kobe gets a lot of hate but people let that cloud his ridiculous he was during their championship runs and through years after Shaq.

That was the closest anyone has come to peak Jordan IMO and if the Lakers weren't saddled with a bunch of stiffs, they likely would have been in the Western finals during that time. They squandered his peak years which is unfortunate for nba fans denied that potential.

[JoeWolf990]

That was the closest anyone has come to peak Jordan IMO and if the Lakers weren't saddled with a bunch of stiffs, they likely would have been in the Western finals during that time. They squandered his peak years which is unfortunate for nba fans denied that potential.

one of the great travesties in pro sports of the last 20 years, imo.

They really wasted some amazing seasons out of Kobe in LA in those post Shaq years.

[Going Commando]

This is horrifically wrong. No way is Dirk a better player than Kobe.

Also it could be argued 04-07 Kobe was the best player in the league and he deserved an MVP or two during that time. His 08 MVP was more of a makeup gift for not giving it to him during this run.

This just reeks of Kobe hate and revisionist history. 04-07 Kobe was pretty amazing.

Kobe was the best scorer in the league over that period, not the best player. Crucial difference.

http://bkref.com/tiny/Qy0M8

Dirk was the better, more impactful player. His teams always win. No matter who his coach was. No matter who his teammates were. If Dirk was healthy he won. And he won a title with less surrounding talent than any other star ever has had. Beat a dynasty Heat team too. Not to mention ending the Kobe/Pau/Bynum/Odom run in decisive fashion.

Kobe's teams only win when they're completely loaded and Phil Jackson is coaching.

There's a pretty simple thought experiment you can use to test a player's value: If you held a Madden Style Fantasy draft where you get to pick any current player in the league to start a team with, getting them as a rookie, where would they go? I bet most GMs would answer something like this:

1.) LeBron

2.) Duncan

3.) Dirk

4.) Durant

5.) Garnett

6.) Kobe

Also saying Kobe was the best player in the game in from 04-07 is the revisionist history. And he didn't deserve the MVP in any of those years. Let's break it down year by year of Kobe's career:

96-97: Jordan is the best player, won MVP and deserved it.

97-98: Jordan again, won MVP, deserved it.

98-99: Shaq is probably the best, Karl Malone wins the MVP though. It was close between them and the Jazz were a little better than the Lakers so Malone deserved his MVP. Duncan is on the come up and is a worlds better player than Kobe at this point.

99-00: Shaq is definitely the best player in the league by far. Wins the MVP. Definitely deserved it.

00-01: Shaq is still the best player in the league. Iverson wins the MVP. Shaq should have won it. At this point, both Duncan and Dirk are better players than Kobe. Dirk is second in win shares as a 22 year old.

01-02: Duncan is the best player in the league. He wins the MVP and deserves it. At this point Duncan, Dirk, and KG are all better than Kobe for sure. Kobe is in the tier with CWebb, TMac, and Paul Pierce at this point. Shaq is definitely better than Kobe when he plays, but he's starting to miss time.

02-03: TMac is the best player in the league. Duncan is close behind. He wins the MVP and deserves it. The Magic were an 8th seed and the Spurs had the best record in the NBA. They were awesome that postseason too. Shaq is still better than Kobe at this point--when he plays--but he's now in missing 15+ games a year mode. KG is the fourth best player in the league this season. Kobe is about even with Dirk for fifth.

03-04: KG is hands down the best player in the league this year. Won the MVP and definitely deserved it. Nobody came close to being as good and valuable as him that season. Every other great player except Dirk missed 15+ games. Even so, Duncan is probably the second best player, Kobe and Dirk are about even for third.

04-05: KG is still the best player in the game. But his team finished 9th and missed the playoffs. Steve Nash won the MVP, but Nash's MVP didn't belong to Kobe. It belonged to Dirk. Nash won it because he was the leader of the 1 seed but Stat and Matrix were two of the best players in the game. Dirk was the second best player in the league that season and the Mavs were good. Kobe isn't even a factor. He drove out Shaq, broke up a dynasty, got Phil Jackson to retire and write a scathing account of him in his book, and then led the team to a 38 win season. That's not the most valuable player in the NBA. Kobe isn't even in the top ten most valuable players in the game this year. A 20 year old LeBron James is a more valuable player than Kobe this year. Duncan is still better than Kobe too. It's not even a controversy between them at this point and Kobe won't have a case against him for another couple years.

05-06: Dirk is the best player in the game. Kobe scores a **** ton of points but his team still sucks and both LeBron and Dirk are better. Nash wins the MVP, but again, it should have been Dirk's. Dirk was doing more with less than Nash. And more than Kobe was doing with his team. This is the best individual year of Kobe's career. And Dirk was still better and more valuable than him.

06-07: Dirk was the best player, won the MVP, deserved it. Duncan was the second best player, Kobe was third. Dirk led his team to 67 wins, Kobe led his to 42. LeBron is really starting to emerge as a consistent force this year. Leads Cleveland to the Finals where they get waxed by San Antonio, but put the nail in the coffin of that mid-decade Pistons era.

07-08: CP3 blows up and is the best player in the league this year. Kobe wins the MVP, CP3 deserves it. Kobe gets it as a sort of lifetime achievement award even though CP3 was individually better and did more with way less than Kobe. LeBron was better than Kobe too. Kobe was the third best player in the league this season, and his team only started winning again because it got loaded up with dominating front court talent again. CP3 reached his peak this season. Unfortunately he's never quite the same after he tears his meniscus two years later, and then that team fell apart around him because of the injuries and Byron Scott got fired.

08-09: LeBron is easily the best player in the league this season. He wins the MVP and deserves it. He's doing more with a lot less than Kobe's got in LA. CP3 is #2. Wade is #3. Kobe is, at best, fourth. And truth be told, both Dwight and Brandon Roy were a little more valuable than Kobe was that year.

09-10: LeBron is easily the best player again. He wins the MVP and deserved it. Wade and Durant are #2 and #3 in some order. Dwight is #4. Duncan is probably #5 and Dirk is #6. Kobe isn't even in consideration, he's coasting, playing for a super team again.

10-11: First year of LeBron in Miami. He's still the best player in the game, but Derrick Rose is a more individually valuable player this season. He won the MVP because he did more with less than LeBron. LeBron's individual impact was dulled by playing with Wade and Bosh when they were still great. Regardless, Kobe isn't a factor in MVP discussions. He's still coasting. Dwight, CP3, LeBron, Wade, Durant, and Dirk are all better than Kobe this year, along with Rose.

11-12: Again, LeBron is the best player and he wins the MVP. He deserved it. No one was even close to him. It was a lock out year, so it was a little wonky, but this was arguably LeBron's finest season. Durant and CP3 are #2 and #3 in some order. Wade might be #4. Dwight is up there. Kobe wasn't that great. LeBron went HAM in the postseason and got his first ring.

12-13: LeBron is the best player in the league again. Wins the MVP and deserves it. This might even be his second best season. Durant is a close second to him though, way closer than people realized at the time. CP3 is solidly #3. Carmelo is #4. Kobe is #5, but his team was supposed to be a title favorite after trading for Dwight and signing Nash. Instead they fell flat on their faces. And once again, Kobe has the best C in the league flee his team. Dwight essentially gave away 30 million dollars to get away. Then Kobe tears his ACL, then signs an absolutely absurd extension that cripples his team and consigns them to the lottery the next season.

It should also be noted that, for the past two years, though Duncan's minutes have dropped a lot, he's been a lot more effective than Kobe, and his teams were way more effective. Dirk admittedly has dropped off the radar this season and the one before. He was battling injuries and his effectiveness dropped. He bounces back with an awesome season the next year though.

13-14: Durant was the best and most valuable player in the league this season. Won the MVP and deserved it. LeBron was easily #2 and there was a huge dropoff to #3, which was probably Blake Griffin or a CP3 that missed a ton of time due to injury. Kobe missed the whole year. His contract effectively makes him the least valuable player in the league this season, and his team puts up the worst record in franchise history.

Alright, after looking at that, I change my original claim to LeBron is the greatest player of the Post Jordan era. Duncan is #2. Dirk is #3. Kobe is, at best, #4. And that's only because of his amazing longevity. Volume of minutes played and points scored basically. The highest quality seasons belonged to someone else in each and every season played. There hasn't been a single season of Kobe's career where he was the best or most valuable player in the league.

one of the great travesties in pro sports of the last 20 years, imo.

They really wasted some amazing seasons out of Kobe in LA in those post Shaq years.

They? Kobe forced the Lakers to choose between him and Shaq! Kobe pissed Phil Jackson off and got him to retire the first time. Kobe wanted the Lakers to be his team and so it became. Even now, Kobe assured himself that the Lakers would suck for the final years of his career by signing that retarded extension. The Lakers were morons for offering it. But they wanted to try and take care of Kobe. And he sure as hell wasn't offering to take a paycut like ALL of the other great players of his generation are/were doing to stay on competitive teams.

[Going Commando]

Pat Riley and Coach K. Talking about loyalty out of both sides of their mouths.

 

I just laughed at the comments. They were already playing below what they'd get elsewhere. Right? They did that when coming together in Miami and leaving other teams. Why was it ok then?

Pat Riley is full of it. He seems to think they weren't mercenaries when they signed to play with each other in 2010. Sucks when the shoe is on the other foot doesn't it? If I were a Cavs or Raptors fan I would love it if LeBron left them high and dry.

BUT, the kinds of paycuts they took in 2010 are nothing at all like the paycuts they'll probably have to take this offseason to get meaningful cap space. They gave up a million or two per year at most in 2010. LeBron and Bosh were dealt in sign and trades back when a S&T could get you just as big a contract as signing with your original team. They got six year deals with ETOs and Player Options the final two years at very near max numbers. Those were EXTREMELY favorable contracts for them.

And you see that now that the three of them have Miami's nuts in a vice grip. They couldn't have totally forseen what the new CBA would have in store, but giving Wade and Bosh 6 year deals with that kind of control was, to put it mildly, imprudent. Stupid really. They got two rings out of those deals, so you can't complain too much. But they've got to pay the piper now.

Miami can't trade Bosh and Wade and they're completely at LeBron's mercy. They can't trade Bosh or Wade because they are extremely overpaid and the ETOs and options absolutely ensure Miami can't get fair value back for them even at their current diminished levels. And LeBron can walk away from them this summer if he likes.

The kind of contracts Miami hopes they sign this summer are an entirely different animal. They'd want Wade to sign for what he's worth--which is probably two years and much less than half what they're going to have to pay him if he opts in. I think he'd lose 30 million easy from opting out. Bosh is in a similar situation too. He's almost as close to being done. And they'd want LeBron to opt out this summer and sign a 5 year deal for less than the 35% max he'd be worth on the open market so that they can save money for role players. I bet LeBron would do it too, he's not selfish. But he would make more money in salary in the long run by playing out this contract and signing a full max 5 year deal in two years at age 31. And there is certainly no guarantee that LeBron opting out and taking a paycut this summer will actually make a dent in the Heat's cap situation and give them the ability to sign better FAs. They've got the full MLE, getting under the cap sacrifices that. And unless Wade and Bosh take paycuts (why would they?), LeBron taking a realistic pay cut isn't getting them under the cap, much less getting them under at more than the full MLE.

What's probably going to happen this summer is the big 3 will decline to exercise their ETOs and return for another season with few changes. An MLE signing and some other moves. They'll have another great shot at a Finals, and if anyone other than the Spurs make it out of the West, they'll have a chance. Not a bad place to be. Then things will probably start moving next summer.

Edited June 21, 2014 by stevemcqueen1

[Destino]

Nene for a Bosh right now, no questions asked. I'll take his horrible contract that he can walk away from at any minute. I'll throw a second round pick too, out of respect for Riley and what he's accomplished.

[Going Commando]

Nene for a Bosh right now, no questions asked. I'll take his horrible contract that he can walk away from at any minute. I'll throw a second round pick too, out of respect for Riley and what he's accomplished.

You've got to add about 4.2 million in salary as trade ballast for the Wizards.

[JoeWolf990]

KG, Dirk, Durant, Duncan, TMac all better than Kobe, lol.

This is what happens when you hate blindly and lowkey dont understand basketball.

 

They? Kobe forced the Lakers to choose between him and Shaq! Kobe pissed Phil Jackson off and got him to retire the first time. Kobe wanted the Lakers to be his team and so it became. Even now, Kobe assured himself that the Lakers would suck for the final years of his career by signing that retarded extension. The Lakers were morons for offering it. But they wanted to try and take care of Kobe. And he sure as hell wasn't offering to take a paycut like ALL of the other great players of his generation are/were doing to stay on competitive teams.

Jerry Buss was his own man, lol. They shipped out Shaq because he was declining and wasnt taking care of himself in the offseason. Shaq even said years later that the Lakers management was the reason why he left and not Kobe. And if you take a look at Shaq's numbers, he declined a lot over the next 5 years.

Phil Jackson was so pissed that he came back the very next season and ended up winning 2 more titles. So pissed that he tried to come back again in 2012. Phil Jackson is about Phil Jackson so he got on Kobe in that book. Then he came back and had to apologize to Kobe for what he wrote.

And while you can say the extension Kobe signed wont help the Lakers win a title, why the hell shouldnt he get paid what he is owed? Only in sports do people complain about a player earning somewhere what they deserve. The Lakers just signed a multibillion dollar TV deal with Time Warner Cable largely on the back of what Kobe did for that franchise and he somehow does not deserve a piece of that.

 

Nene for a Bosh right now, no questions asked. I'll take his horrible contract that he can walk away from at any minute. I'll throw a second round pick too, out of respect for Riley and what he's accomplished.

absolutely in a millisecond. Not even worth a second thought, imo. Edited June 21, 2014 by JoeWolf990

[Momma There Goes That Man]

KG, Dirk, Durant, Duncan, TMac all better than Kobe, lol.

This is what happens when you hate blindly

Yeah if those are the type of arguments that are going to be made, it's not even worth it. That's clearly nothing but hate. Let's throw Vince Carter, Paul Pierce and Ray Allen in there too haha

Kobe has one peer from his generation that he didn't unequivocally crush in this debate and it's Duncan. You can debate those two all you want but it's either one or the other, period. I think it's still Kobe but the Duncan debate has merit and is worthwhile, the others are completely laughable.

[JoeWolf990]

Yeah if those are the type of arguments that are going to be made, it's not even worth it. That's clearly nothing but hate. Let's throw Vince Carter, Paul Pierce and Ray Allen in there too haha

Kobe has one peer from his generation that he didn't unequivocally crush in this debate and it's Duncan. You can debate those two all you want but it's either one or the other, period. I think it's still Kobe but the Duncan debate has merit and is worthwhile, the others are completely laughable.

pretty much. When he mentioned Dirk, I could tell he was on joke time. Its not worth a discussion.

If you want to say Lebron, cool Lebron is more effective. Duncan, its wrong, but Timmy has a great resume. But everyone else is comedy.

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

I love when ppl throw out the "you don't understand *insert sport*" whenever you disagree with them lol.

I'd probably take Duncan over Kobe but I will say that Kobe Stans are literally the worst. You guys aren't doing anything to make that better lol


And I freaking love Kobe

Edited June 21, 2014 by BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93

[Sticksboi05]

A breakdown of some useful advanced statistics...

 

Win Shares

 

MJ - led the league 9x, has finished top 10 11x

Kobe - has never led the league, has finished in the top 10 8x

Duncan - led the league 2x, has finished top 10 9x

Dirk - led the league 2x, has finished top 11x

LeBron - led the league 5x, has finished top 10 10x

 

 

PER

 

MJ - led the league 7x, finished top 10 11x

Kobe - never led the league (best finish 3rd), finished top 10 11x

Duncan - never led the league (best finish 2nd), finished top 10 13x

Dirk - led the league 1x, finished top 10 11x

LeBron - led the league 6x, finished top 10 10x

 

 

Defensive Win Shares

 

MJ - never led league, finished top 10 8x

Kobe - never led league, finished top 10 1x

Duncan - led league 5x, finished top 10 14x

Dirk - never led league, finished top 10 2x

LeBron - never led league, finished top 10 6x

 

 

 

So why exactly is Kobe even in Jordan's league, clearly the best player of his generation or without question better than Tim Duncan, exactly? 

 

And as I have said since 2008, anyone who takes him on your team over LeBron is certifiably insane.  And I don't like LeBron.

[Bubble Screen]

Dig the new unis for the Hornets..

Paul Lukas (@UniWatch): Love the Hornets' new home uni. Not as fond of the road or alternate. My analysis will be on ESPN shortly. http://t.co/N1cULlsycg

Yeah man, I think they did a good job with them. Only thing I don't like is not having "Charlotte" on the road jersey.

They're sharp. Then again, I could be a bit biased.

Edited June 21, 2014 by Bubble Screen

[Bubble Screen]

I'm not surprised you disagree. I'm not sure you've ever posted a single thing I've agreed with.

I rarely ever agree with him, but he's right about Kobe being greater than Dirk. That's a no-brainer.

[Dont Taze Me Bro]

I rarely ever agree with him, but he's right about Kobe being greater than Dirk. That's a no-brainer.

I love Dirk, no doubt the man can ball his brains out.  But its not even close imo, Kobe is the better player and I would take him over Dirk 100 out of 100 times.  Kobe imo, is the closest we have seen a player come to MJ.  It's more of a spot on comparison since both were almost the exact same height/build/weight and play the same position.  

[Going Commando]

I love Dirk, no doubt the man can ball his brains out.  But its not even close imo, Kobe is the better player and I would take him over Dirk 100 out of 100 times.  Kobe imo, is the closest we have seen a player come to MJ.  It's more of a spot on comparison since both were almost the exact same height/build/weight and play the same position.

LeBron has already come far closer to matching MJ's individual dominance than Kobe did. And it still isn't close between him and MJ.

The problem with Kobe is that his claim to greatness is based off of longevity, volume stat stuffing, and rings he only won when his team were super teams and the GOAT HC was coaching. When those factors haven't existed, Kobe's teams have actually sucked.

The highest quality individual seasons are not there with Kobe like they are with Duncan, LeBron, Dirk, KG, Shaq, McGrady, CP3, and now Durant.

The pedigree of consistent winning no matter who you've got around you isn't there like it is with LeBron and Dirk in particular.

Ever wonder why Kobe only has one MVP despite everyone claiming he's the best player in the league for years? Because every season, someone else has actually been better. Even in the year Kobe actually did win the MVP. It should have been CP3's. And LeBron had a better case than Kobe too.

For you and Momma and Joewolf claiming Kobe is the greatest player of his generation, I challenge you to find me a single season where Kobe was the best player in the league that year.

[Going Commando]

KG, Dirk, Durant, Duncan, TMac all better than Kobe, lol.

This is what happens when you hate blindly and lowkey dont understand basketball.

And this is what happens when you don't really have an argument.

 

Jerry Buss was his own man, lol. They shipped out Shaq because he was declining and wasnt taking care of himself in the offseason. Shaq even said years later that the Lakers management was the reason why he left and not Kobe. And if you take a look at Shaq's numbers, he declined a lot over the next 5 years.

Phil Jackson was so pissed that he came back the very next season and ended up winning 2 more titles. So pissed that he tried to come back again in 2012. Phil Jackson is about Phil Jackson so he got on Kobe in that book. Then he came back and had to apologize to Kobe for what he wrote.

You know it didn't have to be a choice between Shaq and Kobe though? The Lakers could have kept both for years. The reason they traded Shaq was because Kobe told management that it was either him or Shaq.

Phil Jackson is about Phil? Would you say Kobe is about Kobe?

And while you can say the extension Kobe signed wont help the Lakers win a title, why the hell shouldnt he get paid what he is owed? Only in sports do people complain about a player earning somewhere what they deserve. The Lakers just signed a multibillion dollar TV deal with Time Warner Cable largely on the back of what Kobe did for that franchise and he somehow does not deserve a piece of that.

I understand all that. I completely understand why Kobe signed that extension. He knew he wasn't healthy and thus wasn't going to be a part of a true ring hunt any time soon. He took advantage of incompetent management that was trying to kiss his ass. But in doing so, he made sure the Lakers had no shot at being good during the duration of that contract.

This does not argue for Kobe's greatness vis a vis players like Duncan, Dirk, and now LeBron.

I get why you don't really find anything wrong with Kobe's behavior. Why you think he's greater than Duncan and it's no comparison between him and Dirk. You also think Wilt is better than Russell and that Nick Young is living the dream.

[Dont Taze Me Bro]

LeBron has already come far closer to matching MJ's individual dominance than Kobe did. And it still isn't close between him and MJ.

The problem with Kobe is that his claim to greatness is based off of longevity, volume stat stuffing, and rings he only won when his team were super teams and the GOAT HC was coaching. When those factors haven't existed, Kobe's teams have actually sucked.

The highest quality individual seasons are not there with Kobe like they are with Duncan, LeBron, Dirk, KG, Shaq, McGrady, CP3, and now Durant.

The pedigree of consistent winning no matter who you've got around you isn't there like it is with LeBron and Dirk in particular.

Ever wonder why Kobe only has one MVP despite everyone claiming he's the best player in the league for years? Because every season, someone else has actually been better. Even in the year Kobe actually did win the MVP. It should have been CP3's. And LeBron had a better case than Kobe too.

For you and Momma and Joewolf claiming Kobe is the greatest player of his generation, I challenge you to find me a single season where Kobe was the best player in the league that year.

So you point out Kobe having the GOAT HC for all five of his rings, when Jordan (who I think is the GOAT as a player btw) had the same GOAT HC for all six of his rings.  

 

I wouldn't call his championship teams super teams, sure he had Shaq for 3 of them, but Jordan had Pippen and Rodman along with an excellent supporting cast for his last 3.  The Lakers team that won its last 2, I would hardly call super team.

 

Kobe has been one of the best players ever to play the game and fun to watch in his prime.  LeBron, the verdict is still out on where he lands overall, I don't think he will de-throne MJ as the GOAT, but Kobe is the closest comparison to MJ in this generation.  

 

Everyone wants to make the argument about LeBron being stuck on ****ty Cleveland teams, well what about Kobe being stuck on ****ty Lakers teams in-between championship teams for 6 years?  

[EvilMonkeyBoy]

I think you guys are so close to figuring this all out. Just a couple more posts and this debate will be settled for good.

Great work all around.

[Dont Taze Me Bro]

I think you guys are so close to figuring this all out. Just a couple more posts and this debate will be settled for good.

Great work all around.

Anyone that would take Dirk over Kobe is going to create a debate lol

[Sticksboi05]

Embiid sigh, losing your cash.

[EvilMonkeyBoy]

Anyone that would take Dirk over Kobe is going to create a debate lol

Alright, I will concede that was absurd and should have been called out.

Edited June 21, 2014 by EvilMonkeyBoy