***2021-2022 NBA Season Thread***

[Destino]

Steve "big shot" Blake. lol

[Going Commando]

Because he is contesting shots and letting his forwards clean up the rebounds.

Yeah that's generally how their system works. Same deal in Memphis with Gasol. He averaged 7.8 RPG last season and won DPOY. Z Bo averaged 11.2 RPG and Tony Allen actually cleaned up a ton of rebounds too with 6.2 RPG last season.

Another thing is the very slow pace both of those teams play. There aren't as many rebounds. Indy was 25th in pace last season, and first in team defensive rating. Memphis was last in pace and second in team defensive rating.

Gasol was pretty deserving, and I think he ended up playing more games and minutes than Hibbert. But Hibbert should've won DPOY. He was just a little bit better and he separates himself from Gasol by being a better shotblocker and a bigger interior presence. Gasol is the superior offensive player, Hibbert is the superior defender.

Edited November 8, 2013 by stevemcqueen1

[Going Commando]

I agree with this sort of. I think "defender" for a center can mean a lot of things and rebounding isn't necessarily required to have a great defensive impact on a game. Better to say that he's not as productive as he should be rebounding the ball. The same thing comes up with Nene. The wizards homer answer is that he boxes out very well and in doing so makes rebounds easy for his teammates. I don't buy it.

I disagree. It's pretty common for the great interior defenders to have lower rebounding numbers.

The thing is, we have to stop thinking about big man numbers like we did in the 80s and 90s. The game has evolved and big men have evolved the most and our counting stats (and all stats derived from them) and fan perception of what makes a great big man are behind.

The role of the big has changed because of the revolution in team defense. The days of the big man bodying up the opposing big and defending the guy on an island, then box out, then rebound with a fairly uncrowded paint are over. The great defensive bigs are the linchpins of team D and thus they rotate and contest shots far more, and pay far less attention to singling up on any one player.

You don't see block numbers go up relative to historical numbers though because big men field goal attempts are way down. Teams don't funnel the ball inside to bigs any more as a rule. Scoring is overwhelmingly driven by perimeter players and bigs have to score off pick plays and by shooting a lot of jumpers.

But you do see rebounds go down because they're moving more and there are many more perimeter defenders getting into the paint and helping out and cleaning up the glass.

And you see both points and field goal percentages go down as bigs get the ball less in general and more in spots that are farther from the basket.

When you look at Marc Gasol's 14.1 & 7.8 with 1.7 BPG on a .498 FG%, you get no indication of just how dominant a force he was. He was one of the best and most impactful players in the West and was the best player on a team that made the WC Finals. Same for Hibbert and his 11.9 PPG & 8.3 RPG on .448 FG% and Joakim Noah to a lesser extent with 11.9 PPG and 11.4 RPG on .489 %. Noah's rebound numbers are actually very good, he was much more of a glass cleaner than the other two.

You look at the numbers of those three players and they look crappy by historical standards for the position where guys averaged like 25+ PPG on 55% shooting with 12+ RPG. But roles have changed and the game has changed. Bigs like Noah, Gasol, and Hibbert end up being as impactful as offensive superstar perimeter players. They lead their teams to 50 win seasons and deep postseason runs. If you have a great defensive center with dominant size like Gasol or Hibbert, you can cover up so many flaws in the rest of your lineup, just like if you have a great offensive PG or SF that can create their own scoring looks and facilitate.

Nene's numbers aren't actually out of whack with high level big man production league wide when you consider his role. Positional D, paint protection, PnR defense, and on offense shooting lots of jumpers, occasional post up creation, and a lot of post passing. Traditional counting stats don't capture the impact of successfully executing that role well. The only number that's bad is his minutes played.

Edited November 8, 2013 by stevemcqueen1

[Enforcer_FFX]

Drummond is pretty fantastic and probably ends up high on the list if he develops some offensive skills.  Monroe is a good C too but probably more naturally a PF. 

 

As a Pistons fan, this has finally given us reason to have some optimism.  Can't really argue w/ your list.  But given time and further development, I can see Drummond and Monroe climb up big-man rankings.

[Hersh]

Lopez would make it.  He's a truly gifted offensive player.  He's Brooklyn's best player and they've got a lot of good players.  He makes scoring look completely effortless and he's a really intimidating and enormous presence.

 

1.) Howard

2.) Hibbert

3.) Gasol

4.) Duncan

5.) Noah

6.) Lopez

7.) Cousins

 

For true centers.  Horford and Bosh would be next if you count PFs that have been playing out of position at C for a while.  10 is probably either Pekovic, Gortat, Chandler, or Bogut.  Drummond is pretty fantastic and probably ends up high on the list if he develops some offensive skills.  Monroe is a good C too but probably more naturally a PF.  Sanders is an incredibly long player and gifted shot blocker and he rebounds well.  But he is a fairly low skill offensive player and he's a bean pole that struggles when matched up with size.

 

There are a lot of good players who can play C in the league, but a lot of them are undersized tweeners playing up in small lineups.  There are very very few guys like Hibbert.

 

You should amend that list to the best centers for the first 46 minutes of a game, because Dwight Howard is nothing but a liability the last two minutes of a game. A great player needs to be able to be on the court to close out a game.

[Going Commando]

As a Pistons fan, this has finally given us reason to have some optimism.  Can't really argue w/ your list.  But given time and further development, I can see Drummond and Monroe climb up big-man rankings.

I think that Drummond has the size and athleticism to be the most impactful true center in the game in a few years but he is a low skill offensive player right now. He needs to learn how to shoot IMO. You can't get him a lot of touches around the rim because of his FT shooting and he limits the space Monroe gets to work with inside. You saw some of the effect of this in a steep drop in Monroe's scoring efficiency numbers last season. He struggled a bit adjusting to a new role at PF, where he is getting the ball in different spots and defenses are playing him differently.

I see Monroe as being a lot like Zach Randolph only with legit center size. Not a very good defensive player, not an explosive athlete. But strong as a bull and yet a silky soft touch. Very natural scoring instincts plus a great feel for rebounding. He's a classic Georgetown overachiever with that toughness and nasty streak.

If Drummond had Monroe's offensive skills and instincts, he'd be unstoppable.

I was impressed watching Josh Smith play with them. I thought he'd be a terrible fit with those two but they've actually meshed well IMO. Smith's passing ability really unlock's Drummond's potential as a finisher. All three of them are high quality passers for their position so the ball does move. But the issue that's always going to be there is spacing. None of them are 3 ball shooters even though Josh Smith thinks he is. So the Pistons have got to get two really good long range shooters at the guard spots to achieve balance and spacing. They don't have that right now.

Also Drummond is going to have to limit his fouling. This comes naturally in time, it did for Hibbert. But until it happens, the gameplan for neutralizing Detroit's tremendous size advantage is going to be to go right at Drummond and get him in foul trouble early.

Why didn't Detroit try and negotiate with Monroe on an extension during the summer? They aren't going to trade him or let him walk are they? To me that'd be a mistake unless they can deal him for a potential all star guard.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Houston's perimeter defense is so bad. Just so so so bad.

[Going Commando]

Houston's perimeter defense is so bad. Just so so so bad.

This is going to catch up with them in the playoffs this season. What can Dwight do? He's going to get teed off on if the guards just let guys move around the floor without resistance. Houston needs a Mike Conley type PG and a versatile defense oriented small forward to stabilize the perimeter. Easier said than done, but then they would actually have the makings of a high quality defensive team. Sort of like Memphis with a ton of offensive firepower, i.e., a true contender.

Their pace also hurts the defense IMO. They were number one in pace last year and they're actually playing even faster this season. They fire off a ton of early threes and its hard to establish a foundation for defense that way.

Perhaps Houston's best bet isn't to go chasing more offense with a big time FA signing like Carmelo, but to fill in the gaps defensively around Howard, Parsons, and Harden. Lin's a lousy defender and makes too much money, deal him. Deal Asik because they don't need him. Then you've got a ton of room for some interesting players.

BTW I still think they should deal Asik for Trevor Ariza.

Edited November 8, 2013 by stevemcqueen1

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

They need a point guard more than anything. I like Beverly....and I actually like Lin. But both are scorers and this team has scoring coming out of its ears. They need a point guard committed to playing defense and who can knock down a three once in a while.

 

I actually think the Asik/Howard tandem could work if they had anyone on the perimeter who played even a modicum of D. But all they do on D is scramble and that just utterly neutralizes having two monsters inside. The Lakers did nothing but shoot wide open threes in the first half.

 

In a 7-game series, the Spurs would shoot 50 threes per game and make 65 percent of them against this D.

 

It's slowly dawning on me that the Spurs are going to win the West again. The Clips have given Paul better tools and a coach that knows what he is doing. But their offense still requires him to create shots for everyone, because no one on that team can get their own. Houston can't defend the perimeter at all. The Warriors are fun as hell, but no one thinks they can win a title. OKC is still so limited offensively without Harden. The Spurs will exploit them all on D and will figure out a way to slow them down on offense. It's kind of depressing actually.

[Predicto]

Just to give a specific example - who leads the Warriors in rebounding and gets all those double doubles?   David Lee, the worst defender in the lineup.  Who doesn't get many rebounds but completely changes the game when he is in?  Andrew Bogut.  

 

When Bogut is healthy, he is a top 5 defensive center, and the Warriors become extremely dangerous.  He is more important to us than David Lee by a lot even if he only gets 5 rebounds a game.    

 

Anyhow I know the discussion has moved on.  Just wanted to get my shots in.

 

 

by the way did you guys stay up for Inside the NBA after the Lakers/Rockets game?   The banter was hysterical.

 

It's slowly dawning on me that the Spurs are going to win the West again. The Clips have given Paul better tools and a coach that knows what he is doing. But their offense still requires him to create shots for everyone, because no one on that team can get their own. Houston can't defend the perimeter at all. The Warriors are fun as hell, but no one thinks they can win a title. OKC is still so limited offensively without Harden. The Spurs will exploit them all on D and will figure out a way to slow them down on offense. It's kind of depressing actually.

 

You want depressing?  The Warriors have lost every regular season game in San Antonio for the past 17 years.   It could become 30 in a row tonight.

Edited November 8, 2013 by Predicto

[JoeWolf990]

Dwight Howard already starting in Houston, lol.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

 

by the way did you guys stay up for Inside the NBA after the Lakers/Rockets game?   The banter was hysterical.

 

 

I wore out my remote last night.

 

I saw Chuck just bury Dwight Howard for his lack of interest in being any kind of post threat, but that may have been at halftime. There is nothing better than Barkley just being disgusted at dudes.

 

I'm actually starting to like Shaq on that show. He seems to have found his place as the "hype man." Whenever Chuck or Kenny get going, he just pushes them to more lunacy. (Barkley running to Kenny's big monitor was great. Ernie doing it was better).

Dwight Howard already starting in Houston, lol.

 

Dwight is going to be Dwight. But he's actually playing pretty well.

 

The problem right now is Harden. He's not even faking effort on D at this point. I don't have a problem with conserving energy on D, but at least make an effort to move your feet when a guy drives by you.  

 

It was a pretty great compare/contrast tonight. The Heat stars tried to murder Chris Paul at times in the first game. Harden was letting Jodie Freaking Meeks do whatever he wanted. Jodie Meeks!

Edited November 8, 2013 by Lombardi's_kid_brother

[Predicto]

I wore out my remote last night.

 

I saw Chuck just bury Dwight Howard for his lack of interest in being any kind of post threat, but that may have been at halftime. There is nothing better than Barkley just being disgusted at dudes.

 

I'm actually starting to like Shaq on that show. He seems to have found his place as the "hype man." Whenever Chuck or Kenny get going, he just pushes them to more lunacy. (Barkley running to Kenny's big monitor was great. Ernie doing it was better).

 

"Barkley can't run.  He can't jump.  He can't even hold his urine" 

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

http://deadspin.com/james-harden-really-didnt-feel-like-playing-defense-ag-1460950195

 

This is fun. In fairness, Steve Blake's athleticism can freeze you.

[JoeWolf990]

Dwight is going to be Dwight. But he's actually playing pretty well.

 

The problem right now is Harden. He's not even faking effort on D at this point. I don't have a problem with conserving energy on D, but at least make an effort to move your feet when a guy drives by you.  

 

It was a pretty great compare/contrast tonight. The Heat stars tried to murder Chris Paul at times in the first game. Harden was letting Jodie Freaking Meeks do whatever he wanted. Jodie Meeks!

Harden's being Harden, he has never played defense.

Dwight tho apparently yelled at Lin in the locker room, then lumped his teammates in with his FT misses and then blamed "them" for hte last play.

Clown of the NBA

[Destino]

Harden's being Harden, he has never played defense.

Dwight tho apparently yelled at Lin in the locker room, then lumped his teammates in with his FT misses and then blamed "them" for hte last play.

Clown of the NBA

 

I don't know what was said specifically but it was a mistake to inbound the ball to Howard late in the game.  The announcers went crazy and said something like "if the Rockets end up losing this game that was the play we'll point to as the reason why".    

"Barkley can't run.  He can't jump.  He can't even hold his urine" 

Ernie and Shaq looked horrified right after he said that.  lol

 

"George Karl just rolled over in his grave"  

"Can't we wait for this game to come out on DVD?  No one is watching these teams, Ernie."

Edited November 8, 2013 by Destino

[JoeWolf990]

Dwight Howard is a max player, supposed superstar.

If you cant inbound the ball to him in crunch time for fear of a)free throws b)failed post move c)turnover

then that says something about him.

[Going Commando]

Philly with another win over a team that's a supposed playoff team in the East. They can win at home. Give them that. Evan Turner has been an animal. If he keeps this up he'll play himself into some serious coin. Playing like a #2 overall pick.

[Going Commando]

Steven Adams could be this year's Andre Drummond. Highly touted H.S. recruit with few skills but freakish athleticism and NBA ready size going one and done after a pretty lame, underachieving freshman season for a big time Big East program.

That kid might end up making the James Harden trade OK. As is, looks like its only a matter of time before he's their full time starter at C. If he becomes a player for them, OKC is going to be really damn good. Basically unstoppable.

Also Anthony Davis has had an incredible start to the season. If you redid the 2011 draft, it'd probably go Davis 1, Lillard 2, Beal 3, Drummond 4.

[RonArtest15]

I'd take Drummond #2

 

Speaking of Anthony Davis...IF he can keep up his stellar play, I'd have no issue saying he's the best PF in the NBA by season's end.  This man has the rare ability to dominate on both ends of the floor.  Last time we've seen that....prime KG.  And FWIW, I think Davis' ceiling is higher. 

[Going Commando]

You can't take Drummond over Lillard or Beal IMO. Those two have played big minutes from day one and they can score. And create their own offense to do it. Lillard has been amazing so far this season and is becoming a legit superstar. He might already be Portland's best player and that team is winning.

Beal played like ass the first three games and his numbers are poor as a result, but we know his skill set is pretty awesome. Excellent all around player. That's not the case for Drummond, who maybe never amount to much on offense. Right now Drummond's value is still mostly based on his potential, because he doesn't have many skills yet and he's still not scoring. He's a high quality defense and rebounding big but gets into foul trouble. He's playing far more minutes this season than last year, and predictably, his high per minute efficiency numbers that got him so much hype from stat nerds last season have dropped precipitously across the board.

And he was badly outplayed by Steven Adams last night, a rookie with a similar make up. He's a spectacular physical talent but it showed he has a long way to go. He can't play big minutes and a big role and get by on just physical ability like he did last year when he wasn't playing many minutes and was playing a much lesser role.

MKG would also deserve consideration at 4, competing against Drummond. He's been pretty even with Drummond in performance and looks a lot better than he did last year. He might end up being really valuable.

[Destino]

Speaking of Anthony Davis...IF he can keep up his stellar play, I'd have no issue saying he's the best PF in the NBA by season's end. This man has the rare ability to dominate on both ends of the floor. Last time we've seen that....prime KG. And FWIW, I think Davis' ceiling is higher.

Hopefully he can have a big enough year to live down that video of his Kentucky teammates having way too much fun with his butt. Deadspin, I'm not linking it. I'm starting to understand why athletes don't want to talk about hazing. lol

[Bubble Screen]

Beal doesn't belong in the same conversation with Lillard or Davis.

Edited November 10, 2013 by Bubble Screen

[RonArtest15]

I'm taking a legit big like Drummond over both Beal/Lillard 10x out of 10. 

 

You're hyping up Lillard, but his high-volume shooting worries me.  I'm really curious about his TS%.  We've seen guards like him before...as a matter of fact there is one who plays in Detroit.  *cough* Brandon Jennings *cough*  While I think Lillard is a good player, I don't see him being a "superstar" like you alluded to. 

[Going Commando]

I think Lillard is already a better player than Jennings and probably has a much higher ceiling. Lillard can shoot and Jennings is a major streak shooter. Plus Portland is winning with Lillard leading the way.

I don't really question Lillard's offensive ability. I think he's going to be a brilliant offensive talent. My questions are pretty much his defense and his age. He's 23 years old, just 11 months younger than James Harden for comparison. He's old for a prospect that is projected to be a star down the road. Most show up in the league at 19 or 20.

But the dude sure can score and you can go far riding the offensive ability of a guard like that.

As to him vs. Drummond vs. Beal, I personally would take Beal over all of them, though I understand the argument for Lillard based on early returns. Beal is nearly ready to carry a good team right now, at age 20. You've watched him every night, you saw him the last two games. Drummond is not close to that. He's the most raw of the three, by far. And he has too little offensive ability right now, too many flaws to carry a team like Beal and Lillard potentially could.

It's a choice between the superstar scoring guard, the superstar scoring guard with excellent defensive potential, and the All Star big man with elite size, defense, and rebounding but minimal scoring ability. You take the second one.