***2021-2022 NBA Season Thread***

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

Exactly. Why would the NBA do that?

[RonArtest15]

playing at OSU would give OSU money.

 

 

Welp...so much for that idea. But my point remains...find a smaller venue. 

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Welp...so much for that idea. But my point remains...find a smaller venue. 

 

That would be cool, but the owners are not going to give up bonus home games.

[Bubble Screen]

make it a true lottery, every team that misses the playoffs has a chance at #1 pick

I would be ok with this, but still maybe give the worse teams more balls than the best non- playoff teams.

[Predicto]

Love should go to GS. 3s for days. I don't know if that would work, cause I still a basketball newbie, but 3's for days.

 

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

I would be ok with this, but still maybe give the worse teams more balls than the best non- playoff teams.

 

So....keep it the same?

[Bubble Screen]

So....keep it the same?

Yeah lol But I thought only a certain number of teams could win the top pick?

[Going Commando]

Not sure tanking is actually the best strategy. People may point to the success stories like OKC and think the strategy in and of itself works.

They don't point to the bead teams that stay in the lottery, Portland, Sacramento, Washington, Minnesota, etc. The Wizards have been picking top 6 for five straight years and don't have anything to show for it yet. With any other owner, the FO that started this rebuild would have been fired long ago.

Good management is good management and bad management is bad management. Tanking is just a clever way for bad management to sell hope to the fan base and prolong their employment, buying time from ownership in spite of the ****ty job they're doing.

OKC didn't get to where they are just from tanking. They have great management. They didn't just make the obvious picks, they went against the grain on Westbrook and Harden and unearthed Ibaka. They scouted well and made decisions according to their vision and then they worked hard developing their players. Bad management isn't going to do that part of the process.

And good management can build a great team without tanking or making any super high draft picks. Steph Curry is a 7th pick and Klay Thompson is an 11th pick. The other key guys came in FA and the Monta Ellis trade and that franchise wasn't any sort of destination. They've just gotten some first class team building from management. Paul George was a 10th pick and Roy Hibbert was a 17th pick and David West came in free agency. Indy put in a ton of work to develop George and Hibbert into what they are today. Good management. Good coaching. And Memphis was built with the most patience and clever management of all. Traded Quentin Richardson for Zach Randolph and he had a career renaissance with them. Marc Gasol was some nothing second round pick thrown in as an afterthought in the Pau Gasol trade and they've developed him over years into one of the best centers in the league. Michael Conley was a 4th overall pick but he wasn't some guy you tank for. He was an afterthought that year behind Oden, Durant, and Horford. The other high pick they made, OJ Mayo, actually busted and is off on his third or fourth team now and Memphis is better than they were with him.

Bad organizations can't do the hard part of team building no matter what draft picks they get so tanking doesn't work for them. Good organizations can make it work no matter what picks they get.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Whether tanking works or doesn't work really isn't the issue. The issue is that it is a widespread strategy and it hurts the game. Can we agree on that?

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

Thoughts on this rumored Shumpert for Faried trade???

[The Dude]

Whether tanking works or doesn't work really isn't the issue. The issue is that it is a widespread strategy and it hurts the game. Can we agree on that?

 

Agreed.  Josh Levin brought this up in the last Hang Up & Listen.  People seem giddy with the idea of their team going 3-79 for the season.  

 

The reality is that someone has to be an 8 seed.  The Wizards aren't going to win the East.  But they have too much talent to tank.  Should they be trying to improve their record or blow things up?  

[Destino]

If you want to reduce tanking another aspect of the NBA that has to be looked into a the salary soft cap/tax and how hard it is to get out from under bad contracts.  Giving the tax sharper teeth helps because while some may like super teams, the ability of teams to just spend a billion dollars to put a roster together concentrates talent, reduces competition, and leaves way too many teams in the cold.  The downside is that teams still have to spend time, sometimes several years, letting contracts simply die of natural causes.  That certainly doesn't improve the NBA fan experience.  

 

Objectively I understand the need to punish GMs for agreeing to bad contracts but as a fan I don't give a damn about any of that crap.  I don't want to wait until an injured max player finally reaches the end of his deal (hello New York fans).  It's one thing for there to be consequences it is another for those consequence to be so far reaching and crippling.     

[Going Commando]

Whether tanking works or doesn't work really isn't the issue. The issue is that it is a widespread strategy and it hurts the game. Can we agree on that?

Yeah it's a part of the game. But the underlying issue is that there are a bunch of bad front offices around the league and few good ones. Acceptance of tanking is a byproduct of a bad culture among team executives and owners, that's for sure.

In the NFL getting a good QB is similarly impactful but NFL teams do not have the tolerance to tank because FOs will get fired after one or two years and there is a lot more pressure to rebuild immediately.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

If you want to reduce tanking another aspect of the NBA that has to be looked into a the salary soft cap/tax and how hard it is to get out from under bad contracts.  Giving the tax sharper teeth helps because while some may like super teams, the ability of teams to just spend a billion dollars to put a roster together concentrates talent, reduces competition, and leaves way too many teams in the cold.  The downside is that teams still have to spend time, sometimes several years, letting contracts simply die of natural causes.  That certainly doesn't improve the NBA fan experience.  

 

Objectively I understand the need to punish GMs for agreeing to bad contracts but as a fan I don't give a damn about any of that crap.  I don't want to wait until an injured max player finally reaches the end of his deal (hello New York fans).  It's one thing for there to be consequences it is another for those consequence to be so far reaching and crippling.     

 

I wonder if there could be some ongoing "amnesty" provision for teams. Something that you can use - I dunno - once every three years or something. Pay the player his money while getting rid of him and not being hurt under the cap. That way, a team is not crippled for five years if it makes one dumb signing.

 

I mean, I get that this would be a benefit to "rich" teams because they have the deep pockets, but it's not like getting rid of Amare's contract would necessarily do that much to help New York. It would allow them to start making smaller moves, but the CBA is set up to punish players who leave their current teams in free agency.

 

There also needs to be something done that prevents a Harden situation from ever occurring again. A team should never feel "forced" to trade a young all star because it already has two other young all-stars. Again, I don't know what that is, but if I manage to draft five superstars, I shouldn't be forced to trade two of them for financial reasons. (Granted, I'm not entirely convinced OKC had to make that trade, but still). The luxury tax should prevent teams from loading up on free agents, not prevent them from keeping homegrown talent.

Yeah it's a part of the game. But the underlying issue is that there are a bunch of bad front offices around the league and few good ones. Acceptance of tanking is a byproduct of a bad culture among team executives and owners, that's for sure.

In the NFL getting a good QB is similarly impactful but NFL teams do not have the tolerance to tank because FOs will get fired after one or two years and there is a lot more pressure to rebuild immediately.

 

I don't think it's similarly impactful. The two best teams in the NFC are led by QBs who were not first round picks and who are not exactly putting up All-World numbers. The Lebron equivalent in the NFL is Peyton. All Peyton does is make you competitive every year. Any team that has Lebron should be in the conference finals every single year.

 

Also, NFL teams could never convince their fans that intentionally tanking is a good thing. Philly fans are pissed about the 76ers hot start. 

[Destino]

I'd like to see teams be able to accrue 1/4th of a veteran max contact annually and capping at at whatever the max value is.  

[Bubble Screen]

The Bobcats only won 7 games in 2012 and didn't get the top pick. If that isn't evidence that tanking doesn't work, I don't know what is.

[Destino]

The Bobcats only won 7 games in 2012 and didn't get the top pick. If that isn't evidence that tanking doesn't work, I don't know what is.

The top pick isn't the only goal, a franchise player is. How many of the leagues best players didn't go number 1 overall? None of the best SFs not named Lebron went first overall (Durant, Paul George, and Melo). I wonder out of the last ten years how often the first overall pick was the best player?

 

Edit:

It's 50/50 between 2003 and 2012.  Five of the ten drafts saw the best player drafted first overall.  2003 Lebron, DHoward 2004, Rose 2008, 2011 Kyrie, and Unibrow 2012.  The other five though didn't see the best go first.  

 

2005 Bogut 1st, CP3 went 4th.

2006 Bargnani.  Aldridge 2nd, Rondo 21st.

2007 Oden   Durant 2nd, Horford 3rd, Marc Gasol 48th.

2009 Griffin 1st.  Harden 3rd.

2010 Wall 1st.  Paul George 10th. 

 

Tanking doesn't save bad organizations though.  Cleveland drafted the best player in the world but lost him.  Many other bad teams just suck at picking players.  There were some awful choices made in many of those (Darko lol)

Edited November 14, 2013 by Destino

[Bubble Screen]

The top pick isn't the only goal, a franchise player is. How many of the leagues best players didn't go number 1 overall? None of the best SFs not named Lebron went first overall (Durant, Paul George, and Melo). I wonder out of the last ten years how often the first overall pick was the best player.

True. But in 2012, Davis was clearly the top prize. This year, I kinda feel sorry for the team that gets the 4th pick.

[JoeWolf990]

True. But in 2012, Davis was clearly the top prize. This year, I kinda feel sorry for the team that gets the 4th pick.

how much college basketball do you watch?

I mean you would have probably said this back in 2003 after Bron Darko, and Melo went off the board. You probably never heard of BOsh or Wade and not many were talking about those guys being franchise players.

Marcus Smart and Aaron Gordon are seen as potential franchise players too. Thats why this draft is called loaded.

[Going Commando]

Yeah Gordon and Smart are good. Dante Exum is pretty awesome. Like a more talented version of MCW. Joel Embid isn't going to show much this year but he's freakishly talented. If he comes out, he'll be a high pick. If he stays at Kansas and develops a bit, he's a potential #1 overall type talent down the line.

I don't know if he'll come out, but I think Noah Vonleh is really damn good too. Potentially an equal to Parker and Randle and Gordon.

Mario Hezonja from Croatia is also very interesting. I've only seen cutups of him but he looks like a truly gifted scorer. He's young though, I doubt he comes out this year. Probably going to spend at least another year or two in Europe.

The #4 pick is super valuable this year. People picking in the first half of the lottery are going to have a great chance of getting a franchise player.

Teams picking 15-20 are going to have a good chance of getting a quality starter too. Deep class.

Some of this talent is going to overflow into 2015 too. That class won't be quite as top heavy as this one, but it'll be strong too.

[Destino]

Speaking of draft picks, Anthony Bennett scored a career high today.  6 points on 3-11 shooting.  That raises his fg% on the season from a terrifying .048 to a merely laughable .125.  If you are going to tank pick a good year to do it.  This season is a great year to tank, last season... not so much.     

[Going Commando]

God Bennett has been terrible. At least he doesn't seem to lack for confidence in his shot selection.

I actually like the kid and want him to work out. He wasn't ready for the NBA.

[JoeWolf990]

Speaking of draft picks, Anthony Bennett scored a career high today.  6 points on 3-11 shooting.  That raises his fg% on the season from a terrifying .048 to a merely laughable .125.  If you are going to tank pick a good year to do it.  This season is a great year to tank, last season... not so much.

no one in the media is talking about Kyrie's terrible start tho

God Bennett has been terrible. At least he doesn't seem to lack for confidence in his shot selection.

I actually like the kid and want him to work out. He wasn't ready for the NBA.

idk when he would be. He is a tweener who isnt long.

[Going Commando]

I don't think there is anything wrong with his body necessarily. He's not built any different than a Paul Millsap for instance. He was emotionally immature. He's still a kid. Not a precocious type like Kyrie or Anthony Davis or John Wall.

Getting picked #1 overall is going to be bad for him. The spot light is going to be on him and he's going to struggle for a while. He just wasn't ready for the NBA. He is a kid who would majorly have benefited from a two or three year age limit. You can't turn down the money of being a potential #1 pick, I understand why he came out. But come out too fast and you might never get a second contract.

[JoeWolf990]

He's not built any different than a Paul Millsap for instance.

Paul Millsap is not someone you draft #1 overall.

Getting picked #1 overall is going to be bad for him. The spot light is going to be on him and he's going to struggle for a while. He just wasn't ready for the NBA. He is a kid who would majorly have benefited from a two or three year age limit. You can't turn down the money of being a potential #1 pick, I understand why he came out. But come out too fast and you might never get a second contract.

I kind of agree with this, but I dont think he would ever be a great player.