***2021-2022 NBA Season Thread***

[Destino]

Dirk is hard to put in "all time" lists because his play doesn't match the ideal game you want from a PF. He's basically the opposite of Tim Duncan, who probably was designed to play basketball by Crom. Dirk is probably the best shooting PF ever but he's never been much of a defender, which I think is seen as being more important for PF/C players than other positions when determining all time rank.

[Going Commando]

Who would have thought Monta Ellis would be this good in Dallas?  I thought he'd be better, but not THIS much better.  His current contract is a steal.  8 million this year and next year, with a 3rd as a player option.

 

Dirk's also up there in defensive rebounding, 15th all time, and could feasibly get into Top 10.  His offensive roles prohibit him from getting any o-boards, so he'll never be considered a "top rebounder", yet people sleep on him being a pretty solid defensive rebounder.

 

When it comes to Dirk's legacy, it's interesting.  Where exactly is he all-time?  For instance, I'd argue he's better than Karl Malone.

Ellis has been a bit of a revelation in Dallas. That team is actually really good. Calderon is a good player. Marion and Carter are still serviceable. Dirk is bouncing back. DeJuan Blair has majorly bounced back. Dalembert is a nice player too, he torched the Wizards. Jae Crowder looks pretty decent and they have one of the best coaches in the league. Essentially every single one of their rotation players right now knows how to play.

The problem is they are old, don't have depth at C, and their division is brutal. Four of the top six teams in the conference might be in that division. And the conference is absolutely loaded. If an old team like Miami gets banged up or worn out, they can count LeBron, and count on beating up on the Southeast and padding their record against other crap EC teams. Dallas doesn't have a big margin for error.

I think Dirk ranks as one of the four greatest players of his generation along with Duncan and Kobe and Garnett. I think he's clearly the greatest Euro ever. Beating Miami in 2011 with a superhuman individual effort is a remarkable accomplishment. He beat a LeBron/Wade dynasty and Hakeem is the only other player to win a title like Dirk did. The Dirk fadeaway is also one of the most signature shots in NBA history, up there with the dream shake, Kobe's turn around fade, Kareem's sky hook, and Gervin's finger roll. There were seasons when the Mavs led the West in wins and he was the NBA's best player.

I don't know if he's better than Malone. I think it is at least an interesting debate. There have been a lot of great PFs in NBA history and there is no obvious consensus about how they rank like there is for PG and SG and even SF.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Steve Kerr also gets respect because A) Jordan respected and trusted him, and that's not easy.  He hit the NBA Finals winning jumper with like 6 seconds to go or something.  I thought something Kerr said about "bullying" was interesting.  He was being bullied by Jordan, and then eventually he snapped and punched Jordan in the face (Jordan then promptly beat his ass), but afterwards Jordan started to respect Kerr.

 

If Michael Jordan was born without basketball talent, he would have been a serial killer. I'm completely serious. Dealing with his personality should not be a template for anything except perhaps how to survive being chained in a basement.

Ray Allen was a better player than Reggie Miller. Better scorer too.

Ray Allen used to be a slasher in his younger days.

 

 

I agree Ray Allen has a ton of skills that he really didn't need to use in his Boston and Miami days. Even in Boston, he would give you that one play a week where he beat his guy off the dribble and take it for a dunk. I think he is too old to do that now of course.

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

I really don't see any difference between Miller and Allen. Both were primarily 3-pt specialist that were excellent free throw shooters. Plus Allen played on better teams. I don't think you guys remember, but Miller was one of the hardest guys to defend because he was constantly moving.

 

There was no way that Allen was primarily a 3-pt specialist.  That's a ridiculous statement.  He was far more than that in Milwaukee and Seattle.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

I think Dirk ranks as one of the four greatest players of his generation along with Duncan and Kobe and Garnett. I think he's clearly the greatest Euro ever. Beating Miami in 2011 with a superhuman individual effort is a remarkable accomplishment. He beat a LeBron/Wade dynasty and Hakeem is the only other player to win a title like Dirk did. The Dirk fadeaway is also one of the most signature shots in NBA history, up there with the dream shake, Kobe's turn around fade, Kareem's sky hook, and Gervin's finger roll. There were seasons when the Mavs led the West in wins and he was the NBA's best player.

 

 

Dirk is one of those interesting players were he is an all-time great, but I don't know if you can just plug him into any team. Dirk's teams had to be built in a very specific way in order to really utilize all his skills (which are off the charts of course). It's actually a little bit like Reggie Miller except it's a hell of a lot better to have a solid 7-footer with unlimited range than a stick figure with unlimited range. I mean, you could drop Lebron, Kobe, Duncan, Hakeem, Bird, Magic, Moses, Jordan etc onto pretty much any great team in history and they would all figure out immediately how to make it work. Throw Dirk on the '86 Celtics or '87 Lakers or '97 Bulls and things start to get a little weird, you know?

 

Without thinking, I would just say he's one of the 30 best ever, best Euro ever, and one of the more fun to watch guys ever. That's a pretty soild resume.

 

(I honestly didn't know what position to put him at when we did those all time lists a while back. I guess he is a 4, but what he and Malone and Duncan do are just in completely different universes).

Edited November 21, 2013 by Lombardi's_kid_brother

[DM72]

There was no way that Allen was primarily a 3-pt specialist.  That's a ridiculous statement.  He was far more than that in Milwaukee and Seattle.

I admit, I saw very little of Allen in Seattle and Milwaukee, but in Boston and Miami, he's a 3-pt specialist.

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

I wonder how many of those 9.5 rebounds are off of his own misses? 

 

I'd take Paul George 10x out of 10 over Melo. 

 

Where was all of this "Melo has no help" talk last year when they won 54 games?  JR Smith has always been wild, Amare has been washed up for a while, and Felton is felton.  There are PLENTY of problems w/ the Knicks and I think they overachieved last year.  However, I think the biggest issue is filling the void left by Jason Kidd.  IMO, he was the leader of that team...and now, they're clearly searching for an identity. 

 

Where was all that Melo has no help talk last year?  It's cause Tyson Chandler played in 66 games last season.  He's only really played in 3 this season (he got hurt 6 minutes into the 4th game).

 

And Jason Kidd's 6 points and 3 assists off the bench isn't that big of a void.  3 years ago, when Dallas won the Finals, his assist % was 35.4%.  2 years ago in Dallas it was 28.4%.  Last year in New York it was 17.8%.  His effectiveness as a player was rapidly declining.

[RonArtest15]

It's not so much what Kidd did statistically, but he made a HUGE difference w/ that team due to his leadership.  That's the void I'm talking about.  Missing Chandler hurts, but it's not the reason why this team is 3-8.  They are extremely flawed and a lot of that was masked last year due to overachieving. 

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

I admit, I saw very little of Allen in Seattle and Milwaukee, but in Boston and Miami, he's a 3-pt specialist.

 

He is 65 years old and a third or fourth scoring option.

 

In his younger years, he played more like a traditional two guard. He's also a strong SOB, which is not something you would ever say about Reggie. Ray was able to score in traffic a lot easier than Reggie.

 

What made Reggie great was how willing he was to work for his shot and just how insanely quick his release was.

It's not so much what Kidd did statistically, but he made a HUGE difference w/ that team due to his leadership.  That's the void I'm talking about.  Missing Chandler hurts, but it's not the reason why this team is 3-8.  They are extremely flawed and a lot of that was masked last year due to overachieving. 

 

It's getting harder and harder to defend Melo (though I'm sure I will try). I think his biggest flaw might be how comfortable he is playing on a bad team. 

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

I admit, I saw very little of Allen in Seattle and Milwaukee, but in Boston and Miami, he's a 3-pt specialist.

 

Absolutely, even more so in Miami.  Ray Allen is 38, if he were not on a team with lots of good creators like Lebron, he would not be in the NBA.  He'd be retired.  He was 32 when he joined the Celtics, and they didn't need to use Ray as a high usage player.  Instead Ray started to do the things in Boston that Reggie Miller had relied on his entire career, which is running around screens like a mad man.

 

In his earlier days he was a really athletic shooter with good handles that could drive and dunk

It's not so much what Kidd did statistically, but he made a HUGE difference w/ that team due to his leadership.  That's the void I'm talking about.  Missing Chandler hurts, but it's not the reason why this team is 3-8.  They are extremely flawed and a lot of that was masked last year due to overachieving. 

 

I thought so too, but Kidd's ineffectiveness at coaching the Nets has cause me to question that.  You see articles from Scouts/Analysts wondering what the hell Kidd even does during the game.

[JoeWolf990]

I really don't see any difference between Miller and Allen. Both were primarily 3-pt specialist that were excellent free throw shooters. Plus Allen played on better teams. I don't think you guys remember, but Miller was one of the hardest guys to defend because he was constantly moving.

Ray Allen was not primarily a 3 point specialist. THats the big difference. He could get to the basket and could create shots for himself and others. 2 things Reggie Miller could not do.

The Ray Allen since 2007 is not the same Ray Allen from 1996-2007. I remember the Bucks had him playing point guard when he was a rookie

And Reggie Miller played on some great Pacers teams in the late 90s.

Ray was a better defender than Reggie too.

Reggie Miller is probably the most overrated player from the 90s. Were it not for the Knicks/NY Media, I dont think he makes the HOF.

Mitch Richmond was a better player than him, and media even thought it too since he made more All NBA teams over Reggie.

Dirk is hard to put in "all time" lists because his play doesn't match the ideal game you want from a PF. He's basically the opposite of Tim Duncan, who probably was designed to play basketball by Crom. Dirk is probably the best shooting PF ever but he's never been much of a defender, which I think is seen as being more important for PF/C players than other positions when determining all time rank.

Dirk is one of the 20-25 greatest players in NBA history.

And I have a tough time comign to grips with it, but he was better than Kevin Garnett.

Look at Dirk's career. Dude was the opposite of Duncan in terms of skillset, but they had same results. Dallas didnt finish under 50 wins for a decade with Dirk, and they had some garbage around him. He absolutely willed his team to an NBA title with some old guys, has beens, and never was types.

Great playoff performer too.

And while he was not an All NBA defender type, dude rebounded very well for his height and was still 7 feet tall so he was a presence.

I wonder how many of those 9.5 rebounds are off of his own misses? 

 

I'd take Paul George 10x out of 10 over Melo. 

 

Where was all of this "Melo has no help" talk last year when they won 54 games?  JR Smith has always been wild, Amare has been washed up for a while, and Felton is felton.  There are PLENTY of problems w/ the Knicks and I think they overachieved last year.  However, I think the biggest issue is filling the void left by Jason Kidd.  IMO, he was the leader of that team...and now, they're clearly searching for an identity.

Melo needs help, and that help is why he not a top tier superstar.

Knicks do have a lot of problems that are beyond Melo tho.

But George is better than Melo, we need to accept this.

saying that, George is not a top tier superstar either

Edited November 21, 2013 by JoeWolf990

[JoeWolf990]

Dirk is one of those interesting players were he is an all-time great, but I don't know if you can just plug him into any team. Dirk's teams had to be built in a very specific way in order to really utilize all his skills (which are off the charts of course). It's actually a little bit like Reggie Miller except it's a hell of a lot better to have a solid 7-footer with unlimited range than a stick figure with unlimited range. I mean, you could drop Lebron, Kobe, Duncan, Hakeem, Bird, Magic, Moses, Jordan etc onto pretty much any great team in history and they would all figure out immediately how to make it work. Throw Dirk on the '86 Celtics or '87 Lakers or '97 Bulls and things start to get a little weird, you know?

 

Without thinking, I would just say he's one of the 30 best ever, best Euro ever, and one of the more fun to watch guys ever. That's a pretty soild resume.

 

(I honestly didn't know what position to put him at when we did those all time lists a while back. I guess he is a 4, but what he and Malone and Duncan do are just in completely different universes).

I disagree

shoot, the Lakers had Dirk's grandfather in Bob McAdoo. Dirk woulda been a great player in any era and for any team.

7 Footer with unlimited range, that agility, and handles. He woulda been great.

[RonArtest15]

He is 65 years old and a third or fourth scoring option.

 

In his younger years, he played more like a traditional two guard. He's also a strong SOB, which is not something you would ever say about Reggie. Ray was able to score in traffic a lot easier than Reggie.

 

What made Reggie great was how willing he was to work for his shot and just how insanely quick his release was.

 

It's getting harder and harder to defend Melo (though I'm sure I will try). I think his biggest flaw might be how comfortable he is playing on a bad team. 

 

Melo does remind me of a bigger version of Iverson in some regards.  I could be wrong, but I do feel as though Melo would have a tough time checking his ego and accepting a lesser role (to some extent).  This is why Iverson was all over the place toward the end of his career.  I have no doubts that he could still hoop in the NBA right now had he relished coming off the bench and focused on being a 15-20 mpg spark plug like Jason Terry.

 

Those similarities between Melo and AI are why I think Melo will end up with the Lakers.  Melo, would obviously be the #1 option, and I think in Kobe's quest for more rings, he wouldn't have a problem deferring that #1 option title to Melo as he gets ready to ride off  into the sunset. 

 

Absolutely, even more so in Miami.  Ray Allen is 38, if he were not on a team with lots of good creators like Lebron, he would not be in the NBA.  He'd be retired.  He was 32 when he joined the Celtics, and they didn't need to use Ray as a high usage player.  Instead Ray started to do the things in Boston that Reggie Miller had relied on his entire career, which is running around screens like a mad man.

 

In his earlier days he was a really athletic shooter with good handles that could drive and dunk

 

I thought so too, but Kidd's ineffectiveness at coaching the Nets has cause me to question that.  You see articles from Scouts/Analysts wondering what the hell Kidd even does during the game.

 

That's a very good point (regarding Kidd's coaching).  However, everyone who played with him or coached him absolutely praised the way he prepared for each game, and also with how he he was pretty much an extension of coach when he was out on the floor.  Why that hasn't translated to success in BK, I just don't know.  He's a puppet and it's a shame because he's a very smart man when it comes to the game. 

[Going Commando]

The Knicks overachieved in W/L last season entirely because Melo is good and he had the best year of his career. They were still flawed then too, but at least they had a couple more good players. Their problem isn't Melo. It's that their team is lousy around him. Without Chandler, that team has barely any other competent players. Felton is a well below average PG. Shumpert is an awful offensive player. JR Smith has been garbage since last April. Just awful. Amar'e is the worst contract in the NBA. Bargnani isn't far behind. Losing Steve Novak and replacing him with Bargnani was a downgrade for the Knicks.

Dead serious, I would absolutely not have the Wizards swap rosters with the Knicks. We've got several more good players than they do. That should be sobering. Heck, give me Cleveland's roster over New York's.

Paul George might be better than him now, but his team is world's better right now and that's the biggest reason for the difference in team success. And I agree with joewolf, George is not a top tier star. Still too flawed an offensive player. Top tier today is pretty exclusive. LeBron, Durant, and CP3, with maybes for DRose and Kobe if they ever return to their old selves. Maybe Anthony Davis if he sustains his level of play all season. Second tier is for Westbrook, Wade, Bosh, George, Melo, Dwight, Harden, Curry, Love, Irving, Dirk, Parker, Duncan, Hibbert, Aldridge, Griffin, Rondo, Marc Gasol, Lillard, and Brook Lopez.

Melo is a pretty much an automatic ticket to the playoffs each year, but unlike KD or LeBron or CP3, he alone doesn't give you a serious shot at contention. That still puts him in a rare class of player though.

Edited November 21, 2013 by stevemcqueen1

[Sticksboi05]

Paul George is a star turning superstar before our eyes.  And unlike Carmelo, he plays defense 94 feet.

The Knicks overachieved in W/L last season entirely because Melo is good and he had the best year of his career.

 

Not sure it was his best but he did carry them.

[RonArtest15]

Anthony Davis is only 20....

 

averaging 20/10/4

 

Absolutely filthy #'s. 

 

Could very easily rack up his first All-Star nod, AND DOPY.  Fells, he's beyond special. 

[JoeWolf990]

Anthony Davis is only 20....

 

averaging 20/10/4

 

Absolutely filthy #'s. 

 

Could very easily rack up his first All-Star nod, AND DOPY.  Fells, he's beyond special.

watch him play too. How he moves, etc.

I really hope he doesnt get injured. He is so skilled too.

[RonArtest15]

watch him play too. How he moves, etc.

I really hope he doesnt get injured. He is so skilled too.

 

The early comparisons are to KG...but I think (if he stays healthy), he'll go down as a much better PF. 

 

His story is crazy....played point until a ridiculous growth-spurt late in HS.  He's a matchup nightmare. 

[Sticksboi05]

Ray Allen was not primarily a 3 point specialist. THats the big difference. He could get to the basket and could create shots for himself and others. 2 things Reggie Miller could not do.

The Ray Allen since 2007 is not the same Ray Allen from 1996-2007. I remember the Bucks had him playing point guard when he was a rookie

And Reggie Miller played on some great Pacers teams in the late 90s.

Ray was a better defender than Reggie too.

Reggie Miller is probably the most overrated player from the 90s. Were it not for the Knicks/NY Media, I dont think he makes the HOF.

 

 

I think that's a bit unfair, Reggie averaged at least 18 ppg  for 12 consecutive seasons and at least 20 ppg for 9 straight seasons (rounding from 19.5 up) and was huge in the clutch.  He may have been sort of a one trick pony but he could do that trick as well as anyone in league history.

 

Plus look at his playoff numbers from 1990-2002...24 PPG, shooting 41% from 3 point range.  That's a solid resume.

 

Now as far as being in the Hall of Fame, that's probably because he retired #1 all-time in 3 pointers made and the voters always look for those "defining moments" which obviously would be the playoff series vs. the Knicks whether it be the 8 points in 20 seconds or 25 point 4th quarter.

Edited November 21, 2013 by Sticksboi05

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Anthony Davis is only 20....

 

averaging 20/10/4

 

Absolutely filthy #'s. 

 

Could very easily rack up his first All-Star nod, AND DOPY.  Fells, he's beyond special. 

 

I haven't seen him live yet this year but am dying to (stupid kids). How is he scoring? Put backs? Jumpers? Post ups? If he is already showing signs of a post-up game, the Pelicans might contend for a title in the next few years.

 

By the way, he is leading the league in PER right now - a full point ahead of Lebron.

 

http://espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics

 

This is why I love the NBA. When someone like Davis improves this much in one year, it changes everything. Before the season, the Pelicans looked like a team that had put way way too much faith in Holiday and Evans to be a standout backcourt. My thought was, "You don't want your team built around those two guys...."

 

All of a sudden, those are two young complimentary guys to an MVP candidate, and the thought becomes "Lebron never had teammates that good in Cleveland and he made the Finals....."

Edited November 21, 2013 by Lombardi's_kid_brother

[Predicto]

 

I thought so too, but Kidd's ineffectiveness at coaching the Nets has cause me to question that.  You see articles from Scouts/Analysts wondering what the hell Kidd even does during the game.

 

He's doing exactly what an inexperienced first year coach should be doing.  He's letting his bench coaches draw up specific plays (something they have been doing for years) while he learns that part of the job.   Drawing up plays during a game is only a small part of what an NBA head coach is required to do.

 

I really think it is way too early to say that Kidd won't be a successful coach.   The biggest problem with the Nets right now is that Kevin Garnett has finally turned into a pumpkin, and the rest of them are injury prone and haven't yet developed any chemistry.   The NBA is a young man's game (unless you are the Ponce de Leon San Antonio Spurs). 

[Going Commando]

Davis was the best prospect since Durant. He's like a 20 year old ****ed up flipper baby of Duncan and Garnett.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

He's doing exactly what an inexperienced first year coach should be doing.  He's letting his bench coaches draw up specific plays (something they have been doing for years) while he learns that part of the job.   Drawing up plays during a game is only a small part of what an NBA head coach is required to do.

 

I really think it is way too early to say that Kidd won't be a successful coach.   The biggest problem with the Nets right now is that Kevin Garnett has finally turned into a pumpkin, and the rest of them are injury prone and haven't yet developed any chemistry.   The NBA is a young man's game (unless you are the Ponce de Leon San Antonio Spurs). 

 

That Garnett/Pierce trade has the very real possibility of turning into the NBA's version of the Herschel Walker trade.

 

Brooklyn is 3-8. If I understand this right: the Hawks have the right to swap picks with Nets this year and Boston gets whatever the Nets have left. The Hawks are 7-5, but that team could get blown up at any second. The Celtics could very easily have two lottery picks in an absolutely stacked draft this year.

 

And Brooklyn might be totally screwed going forward. They are old, are going to be way way way over the tax, and Jason Kidd might be overmatched. The Hawks can swap their 2015 pick with them. Boston has their 2016 pick, the right to swap in 2017, and the 2018 pick. The Nets could conceivably miss the playoffs until 2019 and never have a lottery pick.

 

Boston also has the Clippers' 2015 first round pick thanks to basically giving them Doc Rivers. Boston also has extra second roungers in 2016 and 2017 right now.

 

So, this is Boston going forward:

 

2014 - own pick, probably Atlanta's pick

2015 - own pick, Clippers pick

2016 - own pick, Nets pick, extra second rounder

2017 - own pick or Nets pick, extra second rounder

2018 - own pick, Nets pick

 

They should not be bad for long. 

 

This New Jersey going forward:

 

2014: Whatever pick is the third worst among Atlanta, Boston and them.

2015: Whatever pick is worse between Atlanta and them

2016: No pick

2017: Whatever pick is worse between Boston and them

2018: No pick

 

Even with Pierce coming off the books, they have $83 Million in guaranteed salaries for 2015. The current salary cap is $58 million. Someone smarter than me will have to let me know what the tax implications are for 2015. 

Edited November 21, 2013 by Lombardi's_kid_brother

[JoeWolf990]

I think that's a bit unfair, Reggie averaged at least 18 ppg  for 12 consecutive seasons and at least 20 ppg for 9 straight seasons (rounding from 19.5 up) and was huge in the clutch.  He may have been sort of a one trick pony but he could do that trick as well as anyone in league history.

 

Plus look at his playoff numbers from 1990-2002...24 PPG, shooting 41% from 3 point range.  That's a solid resume.

 

Now as far as being in the Hall of Fame, that's probably because he retired #1 all-time in 3 pointers made and the voters always look for those "defining moments" which obviously would be the playoff series vs. the Knicks whether it be the 8 points in 20 seconds or 25 point 4th quarter.

?????

Noting in my post goes against anything you just typed?

My biggest annoyance with Reggie Miller is taht he was a one-trick pony who feels the need to attack other one trick ponies. I remember he criticized Kevin Martin for only averaging 3 rebounds for one season. Saying a 2 guard needs to do better. Reggie Miller only averaged 3 for his career.

That Garnett/Pierce trade has the very real possibility of turning into the NBA's version of the Herschel Walker trade.

 

Brooklyn is 3-8. If I understand this right: the Hawks have the right to swap picks with Nets this year and Boston gets whatever the Nets have left. The Hawks are 7-5, but that team could get blown up at any second. The Celtics could very easily have two lottery picks in an absolutely stacked draft this year.

 

And Brooklyn might be totally screwed going forward. They are old, are going to be way way way over the tax, and Jason Kidd might be overmatched. The Hawks can swap their 2015 pick with them. Boston has their 2016 pick, the right to swap in 2017, and the 2018 pick. The Nets could conceivably miss the playoffs until 2019 and never have a lottery pick.

 

Boston also has the Clippers' 2015 first round pick thanks to basically giving them Doc Rivers. Boston also has extra second roungers in 2016 and 2017 right now.

 

So, this is Boston going forward:

 

2014 - own pick, probably Atlanta's pick

2015 - own pick, Clippers pick

2016 - own pick, Nets pick, extra second rounder

2017 - own pick or Nets pick, extra second rounder

2018 - own pick, Nets pick

 

They should not be bad for long. 

 

This New Jersey going forward:

 

2014: Whatever pick is the third worst among Atlanta, Boston and them.

2015: Whatever pick is worse between Atlanta and them

2016: No pick

2017: Whatever pick is worse between Boston and them

2018: No pick

 

Even with Pierce coming off the books, they have $83 Million in guaranteed salaries for 2015. The current salary cap is $58 million. Someone smarter than me will have to let me know what the tax implications are for 2015.

THe Nets are finito.

This will be seen as an all time terrible trade.

Not having a first in this upcoming draft is the death knell.

Almost as bad as McHale breaking rules for Joe Smith and ruining the Timberwolves.

[Predicto]

Did I mention how much I hate the Grizzlies?

 

Everytime the Warriors play them, the Grizzlies manage to slow the game down to a crawl (and win, of course).  The Dubs match up horribly against them.  And other than the occassional play by Conley, they make the game boring as well.    Grrrrr....