Going Commando Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 Trust the Process was just bull**** branding. They were just ****ty for a long time and wasted a lot of draft picks before they eventually hit the jackpot on their very high 2014 and 2016 picks. There is nothing special or innovative about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Sinister Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 50 minutes ago, The Evil Genius said: Teams that deliberately tank like Philly did for 5+ years shouldn't ever get rewarded. **** the process. Oh I have no doubt. But you have to understand.... that Cradle 2 The Grave striptease scene... It changed things. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skin'emAlive Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 (edited) They held out embiid and Simmons even though they were ready. They also drafted 3 centers in the lottery. They were actively tanking for a half decade. There is a difference between gaming the system and being downright stupid ( Sacramento ) Edited April 17, 2018 by Skin'emAlive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 4 hours ago, The Evil Genius said: I'd bet she's still smokin hot. Bet? Black don't crack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Momma There Goes That Man Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 (edited) I dont have any problem with what Philly did. The worst thing you can be in the nba is a fringe lottery team/fringe 8 seed. As a fan, I’d be fine sucking ass for 5years to land Embiid and Simmons and have a potentially awesome run. Edited April 17, 2018 by Momma There Goes That Man 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 (edited) 5 hours ago, The Evil Genius said: Teams that deliberately tank like Philly did for 5+ years shouldn't ever get rewarded. **** the process. First, they didn't tank for 5+ years. They tanked for at most 4. In 2012, Doug Collins is the coach and Hinkie hasn't been hired yet. They just weren't very good, but Doug Collins didn't tank. 2nd, they didn't really tank last year. They had no way of knowing that Simmons was going to break a bone in his foot in the preseason last year. Edited April 17, 2018 by PeterMP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 (edited) 4 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said: Trust the Process was just bull**** branding. They were just ****ty for a long time and wasted a lot of draft picks before they eventually hit the jackpot on their very high 2014 and 2016 picks. There is nothing special or innovative about that. They specifically traded players and picks to acquire future players and picks that would give them more value. Things like trading the MCW, the rookie of the year the year before, is not something that most teams do (which is why the Sixers had the Lakers pick). The key thing the Sixers did is that reasonably looked at their players and their future draft picks and asked is this enough for us to compete for a championship. If it isn't, lets throw it back and try again. They could have tried to go forward with a core of MCW and Noel and whoever they were going to draft in that draft (turned out to be Okafor), but the management realized that wasn't going to be good enough. Even if Simmons and Embiid weren't very good or had injury issues, they still have an opportunity to pick up useful players. (A trade that I will point out you bashed at the time.) Edited April 17, 2018 by PeterMP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 (edited) 48 minutes ago, Momma There Goes That Man said: I dont have any problem with what Philly did. The worst thing you can be in the nba is a fringe lottery team/fringe 8 seed. As a fan, I’d be fine sucking ass for 5years to land Embiid and Simmons and have a potentially awesome run. Ugh, 5 years of making millions and giving up every year on the assumption that that actually works? Edited April 17, 2018 by Renegade7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 1 hour ago, PeterMP said: (A trade that I will point out you bashed at the time.) The Noel trade? Or the MCW trade? I wouldn't point to either of those trades as instances of Philly getting good value from their draft resources. They were lousy for a season and traded away an All Star PG and all they came away with for that in the end was the 10th overall pick four years later. They also wasted the Okafor pick, and may have done the same with Fultz. I wouldn't call hitting on two high draft picks out of many evidence of some sort of innovative and inevitably successful team building strategy. And it got their FO fired and replaced. AND it could have failed utterly and they'd still be uncompetitive right now if they'd gotten the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th pick in 2016 instead of the first. Every team who gets a transcendent #1/#1 has the chance to rapidly improve when they start surrounding him with good players. Philly is only notable because they sucked so hard for so long and wasted so many other high draft picks before this guy turned out for them. And even still an awful lot of their projected dominance is resting on the unsteady legs of Embiid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Momma There Goes That Man Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Renegade7 said: Ugh, 5 years of making millions and giving up every year on the assumption that that actually works? I mean the guys playing are trying hard and have a chance to show out and earn money Prioritizing high draft picks works just as well, if not better than being a middling 8 seed stuck in purgatory forever. You need stars in the NBA to win 98% of the tine. You need other starts to attract stars in FA. The only way you can acquire stars (if you don’t alresdy have one) is with high draft picks or by trading high draft picks. They did what they had to do and look at them now. They likely landed a couple of studs Edited April 17, 2018 by Momma There Goes That Man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, Momma There Goes That Man said: I mean the guys playing are trying hard and have a chance to show out and earn money Prioritizing high draft picks works just as well, if not better than being a middling 8 seed stuck in purgatory forever. You need stars in the NBA to win 98% of the tine. You need other starts to attract stars in FA. The only way you can acquire stars (if you don’t alresdy have one) is with high draft picks or by trading high draft picks. They did what they had to do and look at them now. They likely landed a couple of studs Maybe I'm jaded by the Wizards, but typically when I see them losing, especially when we suck, they typically aren't trying hard to do anything except not get hurt and keep collecting that check. Why should I support a team that is trying to lose a game where the point is to win? It's literally an entertainment business, I'm supposed to pay to watch them not entertain me, knowing that isn't the goal at all? They're making millions of dollars to suck at their job? That sounds sweet, where do I sign up? I got Student Loans like a MF'r. I'm not from Philly so I'll use the Wizards as an example: You expect me to trust a franchise that can't draft a quality C/PF if they had something like Biff's sports almanac with sticky notes and circles in it to pull something like that off? It's why I shake my head on the "Trade Wall" talk. We don't trust Ernie to not look up at the sky while it's raining and not drown, yet we'd trust him to draft someone BETTER then Wall for a team completely built around Wall? This is what I want to do in the Wizards thread everytime I see this come up and realize people are serious: The thing is, ya'll are assuming that is a repeatable, tried and true process. Cool, it worked for the Warriors, and it looks like its helped the Sixers become relevant. But is that what we want franchises to start doing? "Oh, my window doesn't look as good as I'd like it to, lets blow it up, suck for half a decade, and hope that somehow it comes out better then what we had or whatever we run into when the new core is ready for championship runs. Oh its not? *presses self-destruct button again" NBA is already borderline WWF, you really want to add that to the equation? Ya'll are fine with that? I want to be the Spurs, I want to be the Celtics. Houston didn't tank to get Harden, they traded for him. Tanking is something a desperate, "I don't know wtf I'm doing" Franchise would do. Why should I trust them with something like that if they don't know how to build a championship team, and just losing to hopefully get all-stars to see what sticks? You have no way to guarantee they'll be all-stars. You have no way to guarantee they'll even stay healthy. Edited April 18, 2018 by Renegade7 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Momma There Goes That Man Posted April 18, 2018 Share Posted April 18, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Renegade7 said: I want to be the Spurs, I want to be the Celtics. Houston didn't tank to get Harden, they traded for him. Tanking is something a desperate, "I don't know wtf I'm doing" Franchise would do. Why should I trust them with something like that if they don't know how to build a championship team, and just losing to hopefully get all-stars to see what sticks? You have no way to guarantee they'll be all-stars. You have no way to guarantee they'll even stay health. Ideally yeah we all want to be like them. But the spurs were also in position to draft David Robinson and Tim Duncan both #1 overall which significantly helped their legacy the last 30 years. The Celtics were going nowhere for a long tome and then cashed in some high draft picks for Allen/Garnett and finally changed their fortune. I’m not saying you should trust the Wizards to do this or any team really. It’s not an exact science or something that always works. But look at the Wiz core. Where were they drafted? Even with them they’re still an 8 seed right now but where would they be without those two guys? Would you rather have Jon wall and beal on the team or be picking 15th in the draft and never get either of those two guys because the Wiz tried too hard to nab that glorious 7th seed in a meaningless season. If you don’t like it then you don’t have to buy the tickets etc. I’m sure a lot of philly fans bailed or stopped going to games. But look at that place now, it was fired up and rocking for the postseason the other day I’d rather suffer a few horrendous years at the chance of getting a great player that could change everything over supporting a team with a bunch of no good try-hards that ruin our draft prospects trying to sneak into the postseason for a guaranteed slaughter. You generally need stars to win in the nba and there are only a few ways you get them, two of which involve using high draft picks. You said the point is to win. Correct, win championships not just win games. In that context, a momentary tank or bad seasons strung together is far better to get to a championship than being slightly above average where you are guaranteed to never win a title and also never get a sure-fire talent in the draft unless you just luck into a superstar halfway thru the first round which is very rare in the nba Edited April 18, 2018 by Momma There Goes That Man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted April 18, 2018 Share Posted April 18, 2018 2 minutes ago, Momma There Goes That Man said: Ideally yeah we all want to be like them. But the spurs were also in position to draft David Robinson and Tim Duncan both #1 overall which significantly helped their legacy the last 30 years. The Celtics were going nowhere for a long tome and then cashed in some high draft picks for Allen/Garnett and finally changed their fortune. I’m not saying you should trust the Wizards to do this or any team really. It’s not an exact science or something that always works. But look at the Wiz core. Where were they drafted? Even with them they’re still an 8 seed right now but where would they be without those two guys? Would you rather have Jon wall and beal on the team or be picking 15th in the draft and never get either of those two guys because the Wiz tried too hard to nab that glorious 7th seed in a meaningless season. If you don’t like it then you don’t have to buy the tickets etc. I’m sure a lot of philly fans bailed or stopped going to games. But look at that place now, it was fired up and rocking for the postseason the other day I’d rather suffer a few horrendous years at the chance of getting a great player that could change everything over supporting a team with a bunch of no good try-hards that ruin our draft prospects trying to sneak into the postseason for a guaranteed slaughter. You generally need stars to win in the nba and there are only a few ways you get them, two of which involve using high draft picks. Wizards have been to the second round 3 of the last 4 seasons, we're 8th seed because Wall missed a bunch of games and our center play has gotten worse. We're close enough that if we can draft a quality center, we're going to stay relevant, then its about stealing players for our bench to make runs. I don't trust our coach, but I wouldn't call our core hopeless, I'm not buying that. And we didn't tank to get them, we just sucked, that's different. Spurs don't really tank either, they've historically stayed relevant by historical fighting to stay relevant, even before either of them showed up. We haven't brought up the Lakers. Stars aren't enough, we've seen stars in the playoffs before, you need an all-around quality team to pull it off, a system and a plan to keep it going no matter what happens to who. I'm not going to call Philly fans hypocrites, I'd call them desperate (which I don't want to be, terrible stuff tends to happen when you do that more often the not). Who's your team again? I seriously forgot, your perspective on this discussion may be very different then mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Sinister Posted April 18, 2018 Share Posted April 18, 2018 I have no problem rooting for a team, if they are bad but earnestly trying to improve and going about it a sensible way. Actively encouraging or rooting for bottoming out (and the current fad it has started) for no reason other than "Hey uh ghee, we might get the no. 1 pick" is a 100% chicken**** business practice, and a ridiculously absurd fan move to support it. There's always another way to get better. Great franchises know how to do it. Bad franchises dont. Nobody wins. Everyone comes out dirtier. Of course, if you have no soul as a sports fan it won't matter. You can just come back after years of not caring at all, and pretend like nothing happened, chanying "Trust The Process!" in your Simmons jersey. What kind of precedent is that? A league full of gump ass fans? 2018 for the Redskins may very well decide my fandom, and when/if it goes, that's it. I ain't comin back. Even if you throw a top pick at a bad franchise, there's no real guarantee it will get better anyway. It's just a risky, damaging trend that is silently catching on more and more. ****ing try. That's really the bare minimum of what any fan should want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted April 18, 2018 Share Posted April 18, 2018 15 minutes ago, Mr. Sinister said: ****ing try. That's really the bare minimum of what any fan should want. This doesn't even sound like an attempt to get a ring, its like playing Madden so you can go full blown dynasty mode. Everyone wants to be the Warriors now like that's normal or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhead36 Posted April 18, 2018 Share Posted April 18, 2018 The process worked because they happened to get the #1 pick when Simmons/Embiid were there. Those could have easily been Kwame Brown or Anthony Bennett. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Momma There Goes That Man Posted April 18, 2018 Share Posted April 18, 2018 8 minutes ago, Warhead36 said: The process worked because they happened to get the #1 pick when Simmons/Embiid were there. Those could have easily been Kwame Brown or Anthony Bennett. But they wouldn’t have had a chance at Simmons or Embiid had they not done that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted April 18, 2018 Share Posted April 18, 2018 4 minutes ago, Momma There Goes That Man said: But they wouldn’t have had a chance at Simmons or Embiid had they not done that. So the plan was to tank for those players all along, is that what you are insinuating? They made the decision to do this while those guys were in high school Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Momma There Goes That Man Posted April 18, 2018 Share Posted April 18, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Renegade7 said: Wizards have been to the second round 3 of the last 4 seasons, we're 8th seed because Wall missed a bunch of games and our center play has gotten worse. We're close enough that if we can draft a quality center, we're going to stay relevant, then its about stealing players for our bench to make runs. I don't trust our coach, but I wouldn't call our core hopeless, I'm not buying that. And we didn't tank to get them, we just sucked, that's different. Spurs don't really tank either, they've historically stayed relevant by historical fighting to stay relevant, even before either of them showed up. We haven't brought up the Lakers. Stars aren't enough, we've seen stars in the playoffs before, you need an all-around quality team to pull it off, a system and a plan to keep it going no matter what happens to who. I'm not going to call Philly fans hypocrites, I'd call them desperate (which I don't want to be, terrible stuff tends to happen when you do that more often the not). Who's your team again? I seriously forgot, your perspective on this discussion may be very different then mine. I only used the Wizards to show that their best players were top draft picks. And they have a good team now because of it. Now that they have their stars they can add pieces here and there to try to get over the hump. Much better than forever being in purgatory not good enough to seriously compete and not bad enough to have the chance at a great player in the draft. Redskins should have tanked in 11 when it was clear they were terrible. Could have had Luck and kept our other picks. I wouldn’t care if they went the way of the Browns the last 3 years either if their plan was to seriously stockpile high draft picks and rebuild the team either Nba wise- I actually don’t have a team. I just love basketball. I was always a Kobe guy tho rooted for him hard from rookie to retirement. He helped peak my interest in the league coming in right around Jordan’s return. But I don’t really care about the Lakers once he left. Probably because nobody else in my family likes the nba and my dad didn’t either. He liked Larry Bird of course but otherwise just a bunch of thugs. (Eyeroll) 5 minutes ago, Renegade7 said: So the plan was to tank for those players all along, is that what you are insinuating? They made the decision to do this while those guys were in high school No the plan was to be bad for increased chances ar higher draft picks because usually there are good to great players at the top of the draft and occasionally their are transcendent talents there. Sure it worked out for them. Sometimes you get Simmons, Anthony Davis or Embiid, sometimes you get Anthony Bennett Edited April 18, 2018 by Momma There Goes That Man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Sinister Posted April 18, 2018 Share Posted April 18, 2018 (edited) Jrue Holliday, my god Edited April 18, 2018 by Mr. Sinister 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Do Itch Big Posted April 18, 2018 Share Posted April 18, 2018 Lillard has not been good in the clutch in these last two games. Playoff Rondo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Sinister Posted April 18, 2018 Share Posted April 18, 2018 I pretty much hate Rondo, but I cannot deny, I've always loved dudes fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted April 18, 2018 Share Posted April 18, 2018 Just now, Mr. Sinister said: I pretty much hate Rondo, but I cannot deny, I've always loved dudes fire. I started yelling when he hit that last three, and ya, I remember him diving on the floor in the finals. He may have some screws loose, but if he ever wanted to be a Wizard, I'd sign him in a heartbeat. It's harder to turn that fire on then turn it off, I can live with that or cut him if it goes too far (still give him a chance first). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Sinister Posted April 18, 2018 Share Posted April 18, 2018 Pelicans played straight up Monstar ball. Portland didnt want any. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Sinister Posted April 18, 2018 Share Posted April 18, 2018 12 minutes ago, Renegade7 said: I started yelling when he hit that last three, and ya, I remember him diving on the floor in the finals. He may have some screws loose, but if he ever wanted to be a Wizard, I'd sign him in a heartbeat. It's harder to turn that fire on then turn it off, I can live with that or cut him if it goes too far (still give him a chance first). Rondo and Jrue when they're on, are far from pushovers, but Lillard and McCollum are not making a case for themselves, since it's a popular thing these days to get sensitive when x backcourt is not mentioned as one of the best, or the very best in the league. FG: 6/18 - 7/23 Dame 9/21 - 7/18 McCollum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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