***2021-2022 NBA Season Thread***

[Warhead36]

3 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

This move seems desperate for Philly.

He's a good player and he'll help them but I feel like they should have been more patient and built that roster with more continuity of vision.  Presti should have never been fired. Joel Embiid + Ben Simmons and a ton of great shooters sounds like a good formula.  Now it's too many chiefs and not enough braves and no shooting on the roster aside from one guy.

Yeah I don't get it either. They were probably in the most enviable position in the league(other than Golden State obviously)in terms of having a talented, young, and relatively cheap roster. Now its more of an all in situation and I don't think they're good enough with Butler to even win the East let alone win a title.

 

Its funny how as soon as Lebron leaves the East, it gets a lot stronger. Philly/Boston/Toronto/Milwaukee will be a fun Eastern conference final four.

[PeterMP]

2 hours ago, Warhead36 said:

Yeah I don't get it either. They were probably in the most enviable position in the league(other than Golden State obviously)in terms of having a talented, young, and relatively cheap roster. Now its more of an all in situation and I don't think they're good enough with Butler to even win the East let alone win a title.

 

Its funny how as soon as Lebron leaves the East, it gets a lot stronger. Philly/Boston/Toronto/Milwaukee will be a fun Eastern conference final four.

 

Eh, depends on Patton's health and what you think of him.  Plus Saric and Covington have clear limited upside.

 

It is possible in 2 years we'll be looking and saying the Sixers got the 2 best players in the trade.  If you're making a trade and you think there's a reasonable chance you are getting the 2 best players in the trade, even if it isn't a perfect fit, that's a hard trade to turn donw.

[StillUnknown]

 

[CRobi21]

Ernie already licking his chops... 

 

1st rounder for Melo? Easy decision.

[Chachie]

3 hours ago, PeterMP said:

 

Eh, depends on Patton's health and what you think of him.  Plus Saric and Covington have clear limited upside.

 

It is possible in 2 years we'll be looking and saying the Sixers got the 2 best players in the trade.  If you're making a trade and you think there's a reasonable chance you are getting the 2 best players in the trade, even if it isn't a perfect fit, that's a hard trade to turn donw.

 

 

Here's why I like it for Philly: Ben and Joel are fantastic players but neither of them are ready to lead when the going gets tough yet. Late season or post season, this team will need composure. They just got an instant upgrade in composure.

 

Downside? The two could end up resenting Butler, who will want to establish his alpha.

[Destino]

Quote

The Houston Rockets and Carmelo Anthony are discussing his role with the team and how the franchise and 10-time All-Star forward still might be able to proceed together for the rest of the season, league sources told ESPN.

Talks are ongoing, the sources said.

 

Anthony, who missed the Rockets' game against the San Antonio Spurs on Saturday night because of an illness, signed a one-year, $2.4 million veteran's minimum contract with Houston after agreeing to a buyout with the Atlanta Hawks before the season.

 

The Rockets would be responsible for paying the 34-year-old Anthony that contract should the team decide to waive him.

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/25238014/houston-rockets-talks-carmelo-anthony-role-team

 

 

[Going Commando]

Butler likes playing Boston too.  If you think the path to the Finals goes through Boston, he helps you.  But they're in a position to have to make a potentially damning decision about extending him this summer.  I don't like that for them.

 

Butler's presence also leaves zero room for Markelle Fultz to ever justify his draft position.  That's a bust and they should be trying to deal him right now.

[PeterMP]

16 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

Butler likes playing Boston too.  If you think the path to the Finals goes through Boston, he helps you.  But they're in a position to have to make a potentially damning decision about extending him this summer.  I don't like that for them.

 

Butler's presence also leaves zero room for Markelle Fultz to ever justify his draft position.  That's a bust and they should be trying to deal him right now.

 

They were almost certainly going to have to make a decision on Butler anyway.  They were almost certainly going to get to the end of the year and need another off ball scorer that can create.  They were going to have the money to max somebody, and Bulter is most likely going to be their best option (assuming Leonard will either take the most money and stay in Toronto or go home to LA).

 

From that perspective, the trade really changes nothing.  All the trade does is if give them an inside track to sign Butler and a better idea of how well he actually fits (on the court and in the locker room).

 

They haven't saved up the cap space they need to get in a situation where they have clear need and players out there that fit that need to not use it.  The trade can't be a bad trade based on having to make a decision that they were almost certainly going to have to make anyway.

 

The trade actually helps Fultz.  It means they can stop trying to force him into being the off ball player that he isn't (at least not currently) and let him play as the back up PG (where he really is a PG not a 2) with less pressure on him.

 

They absolutely should not trade him now.  He's in the 2nd year of a rookie deal.  They can give him this year playing his natural position w/o too much pressure, and then give him next off season to work on his game to see how he comes back next year.

 

Butler, Simmons, and Embiid need to start.  Fultz is on the bench, but then they should stagger minutes where Fultz plays when Simmons sits with Embiid or Butler (and I'd put him on the floor with Butler mostly).

[Barry.Randolphe]

Carmelo really fell off a cliff....watch him go to the Lakers

[Destino]

Everyone is focused on how Butler will fit with the 76ers, but we need to spend a little time on just how bad this trade is for Thibodeau, who is both head coach and head of basketball operations.

 

In June of 2017 Timberwolves traded Kris Dunn, Zach LaVine, and the 7th overall pick (Lauri Markkanen) to the Bulls for Jimmy Butler and the 16th overall pick Justin Patton.  LaVine is 23 and averaging 27 points per game.  Markkanen is a 21 year old legit 7 footer with an NBA three ball.  In a years time Thibs has turned those two promising young players into Robert Covington, Dario Saric, Jerryd Bayless and a 2022 second-round pick.

 

That's a hell of a screw up.  Instead of trusting the process and finding the right coaching fit for a talented young roster, the Wolves let a coach trade away talent in an attempt to speed up the process.  

[PeterMP]

1 hour ago, Destino said:

Everyone is focused on how Butler will fit with the 76ers, but we need to spend a little time on just how bad this trade is for Thibodeau, who is both head coach and head of basketball operations.

 

In June of 2017 Timberwolves traded Kris Dunn, Zach LaVine, and the 7th overall pick (Lauri Markkanen) to the Bulls for Jimmy Butler and the 16th overall pick Justin Patton.  LaVine is 23 and averaging 27 points per game.  Markkanen is a 21 year old legit 7 footer with an NBA three ball.  In a years time Thibs has turned those two promising young players into Robert Covington, Dario Saric, Jerryd Bayless and a 2022 second-round pick.

 

That's a hell of a screw up.  Instead of trusting the process and finding the right coaching fit for a talented young roster, the Wolves let a coach trade away talent in an attempt to speed up the process.  

 

LaVine is a scorer, but a bad defensive player.  Covington in reality is probably a better player.  Now, LaVine is younger and more athletic so some day he might figure out how to play defense at which point he'll pass by Covington.

 

In general, Thibs has been awful in terms of being a GM and a coach.   KAT has gone backwards with him as a coach, and Wiggins hasn't improved really much at all.

 

I guess they have to wait until the end of the year, but he needs to get fired.

[Going Commando]

Wiggins sucks.  Nobody needs a negative VORP max player.  Nobody needs a wing who can't shoot, pass, or play defense.  The Wolves are not as good as we thought they were going to be.  Towns hasn't progressed the way he should and he's the only real keeper they've got.  That is a dead end team.

[Dr. Do Itch Big]

Kay is also soft. 

[Going Commando]

He might be.  Hard to say a guy who can rebound like him is soft though.  I think he's lost more so than soft, nobody thought he was soft at Kentucky or during his first three seasons. 

 

Bottom line though is he's one of the best young talents in the NBA and Minny needed to pair him with a second star.  But we're coming up on second contract time for everyone else in his age range and Minny has no desirably trade assets and the Wiggins contract is an absolute anchor.  One of the very worst contracts in the NBA.

[Destino]

Reports are saying Melo is done in Houston which is strange.  I could understand him being benched for playing poorly, but off the team?  There has to be more going on then just performance.

[PeterMP]

5 hours ago, Destino said:

Reports are saying Melo is done in Houston which is strange.  I could understand him being benched for playing poorly, but off the team?  There has to be more going on then just performance.

 

He's uncoachable.  He just doesn't play poorly.  He doesn't listen to the coach.

 

What do we think of Boston?  They're now 7-6.

 

Kyrie and Heyward both look too slow to really play good defense.  Tatum's shooting numbers are more what you'd expect based on what he did in his one year at Duke vs. what he did last year.

 

Are they too heavily invested in two veterans who were never particularly good defenders and are now older and slowed from career altering injuries and people were too fast to label Tatum as a next super star?  Or do they have two super star veterans that are still working their way back from injury that will figure things out and a young super star that is off to a bit of a slow start while trying to get in sync with the two veterans on offense?

[StillUnknown]

6 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

He might be.  Hard to say a guy who can rebound like him is soft though.  I think he's lost more so than soft, nobody thought he was soft at Kentucky or during his first three seasons. 

 

Bottom line though is he's one of the best young talents in the NBA and Minny needed to pair him with a second star.  But we're coming up on second contract time for everyone else in his age range and Minny has no desirably trade assets and the Wiggins contract is an absolute anchor.  One of the very worst contracts in the NBA.

 

I don't know if KAT is soft, just seems different than other players of his talent and skill level. He seems to be missing that hyper-competitiveness that drives the talented and skilled to become great players.  Without that part, he can't be the #1 guy on your team.

 

7ft dude who shoots 40+ from deep should be absolute dream in today's game. I don't know how he's so bad defensively, he has the tools to be great in that department.

[Bozo the kKklown]

2 hours ago, PeterMP said:

 

He's uncoachable.  He just doesn't play poorly.  He doesn't listen to the coach.

 

What do we think of Boston?  They're now 7-6.

 

Kyrie and Heyward both look too slow to really play good defense.  Tatum's shooting numbers are more what you'd expect based on what he did in his one year at Duke vs. what he did last year.

 

Are they too heavily invested in two veterans who were never particularly good defenders and are now older and slowed from career altering injuries and people were too fast to label Tatum as a next super star?  Or do they have two super star veterans that are still working their way back from injury that will figure things out and a young super star that is off to a bit of a slow start while trying to get in sync with the two veterans on offense?

too many good players and too deep.

 

They will have to make some moves.

[Bozo the kKklown]

1 hour ago, StillUnknown said:

7ft dude who shoots 40+ from deep should be absolute dream in today's game. I don't know how he's so bad defensively, he has the tools to be great in that department.

The first thing is that he is not 7 feet tall. He is like 6'10" and isn't out of this world athletically.

[justice98]

Melo needs to just retire.  It's not gonna get better for him and there's no real fit anywhere especially on a contender. If he just wanted to play and some team was fine with him going out there and doing his thing, then fine.  But I don't think that team exists.  

 

He's limping to the finish and going out like Iverson.  Nobody wants to see that and that'll end poorly for everybody.

 

Basically, guys that play like Melo almost never go out gracefully..

[Going Commando]

@stevemcqueen1 was right about Boston having a slow start in his preseason takes.  It was always going to take time for everyone to figure out a role they could be happy with.

 

He's also going to end up being right about that construction not having as much upside as everyone who jumped on them thought it was going to have.  They're going to get stuck too if they're not careful.

 

- First and most pressing: they need to find a way to dump Hayward.  He's an anchor.  The signing isn't working out and they might still be able to move him for a decent return because the bloom is not off the rose yet.  They're not going to want to be stuck paying this guy 30 million for three years.

 

- They need to move on from Horford because he's making way too much money for what he brings to the table.  But it's going to be extremely difficult to replace him with a decent defensive five who can pass and shoot without spending a ton of money.  Robert Williams is going to have to step up.

 

- Maxing Kyrie this summer is the only move that makes sense unless they can get something really good back in return.  He's still young enough to play with Brown and Tatum for the first half of their careers.  He's got an elite level skill set that is useful in the playoffs.  Boston has a coach whose a master at maximizing the strengths of his lead guards and minimizing their weaknesses.  Stevens made Jordan Crawford look like a high end starter and Isaiah Thomas look like an MVP candidate.  Rozier looks like a potential 6MOY one day.

 

But maxing Kyrie this summer means their build is basically set for the next four or five years on a formula of one max PG, one max SG, and one max SF.  Speaking from experience as a Wizards fan, this kind of construction leads to impossibly soft interior play and quite a few problems stemming from guys not being able to figure out their roles.  Stevens is such a strong coach that he might be able to figure out how to make it work.  But it's hard to get synergy from this set up unless guys shoot and move around off the ball like the ****ing Warriors.  Superstar inside player + outside player has always been the more natural championship foundation.

 

- Gotta find a way to keep Terry Rozier, and do so at a favorable cap number.  He's the kind of role player that championship teams need.  And you also have to find a way to get him high end third guard touches and minutes.  The bad third guard treadmill can be really tough to get off.  These guys are so important for team glue.

 

Toronto and Milwaukee upped the ante on Boston and Philly.  Giannis + a legit great coach and a team full of well matched role players is a nightmare for everyone else in the East.  An extremely well constructed Toronto roster led by a legit MVP type guy is a nightmare too.  Maybe Kawhi still goes West next summer, but the more Toronto wins, the more it seems natural for him to stay.  Philly responded to these big improvements with the Butler trade, we'll see how that works out.  Not sure about it.  Boston needs to respond too.  If they sit pat, they'll end up squandering assets.  That was the trap the Wizards fell into.  If you don't have Kawhi, Giannis, Embiid, or even Kristaps, then you're starting out with a disadvantage.  It's hard to win a series against a well built team with a transcendent player unless you've got a perfectly tuned team with high end guys at every spot.  Even then, you saw what happened to the Raptors every time they played LeBron. 

 

Not really sure what I'd do if I were Danny Ainge.  I think I'd be secretly trying to trade Kyrie Irving for Kritaps Porzingis.  Could have a two-fold impact of also causing Jimmy Butler to leave Philly and sign with the Knicks this summer.

[Going Commando]

If I had the power to change mismatched NBA rosters to make inside-outside pairings that make sense, I would put:

 

- KAT with Ben Simmons

- Embiid with Tatum

- Lillard with Anthony Davis

- Giannis with Brad Beal

- Wall with Kristaps

- Kyrie with Kawhi

[PeterMP]

1 hour ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

@stevemcqueen1 was right about Boston having a slow start in his preseason takes.  It was always going to take time for everyone to figure out a role they could be happy with.

 

He's also going to end up being right about that construction not having as much upside as everyone who jumped on them thought it was going to have.  They're going to get stuck too if they're not careful.

 

- First and most pressing: they need to find a way to dump Hayward.  He's an anchor.  The signing isn't working out and they might still be able to move him for a decent return because the bloom is not off the rose yet.  They're not going to want to be stuck paying this guy 30 million for three years.

 

- They need to move on from Horford because he's making way too much money for what he brings to the table.  But it's going to be extremely difficult to replace him with a decent defensive five who can pass and shoot without spending a ton of money.  Robert Williams is going to have to step up.

 

- Maxing Kyrie this summer is the only move that makes sense unless they can get something really good back in return.  He's still young enough to play with Brown and Tatum for the first half of their careers.  He's got an elite level skill set that is useful in the playoffs.  Boston has a coach whose a master at maximizing the strengths of his lead guards and minimizing their weaknesses.  Stevens made Jordan Crawford look like a high end starter and Isaiah Thomas look like an MVP candidate.  Rozier looks like a potential 6MOY one day.

 

But maxing Kyrie this summer means their build is basically set for the next four or five years on a formula of one max PG, one max SG, and one max SF.  Speaking from experience as a Wizards fan, this kind of construction leads to impossibly soft interior play and quite a few problems stemming from guys not being able to figure out their roles.  Stevens is such a strong coach that he might be able to figure out how to make it work.  But it's hard to get synergy from this set up unless guys shoot and move around off the ball like the ****ing Warriors.  Superstar inside player + outside player has always been the more natural championship foundation.

 

- Gotta find a way to keep Terry Rozier, and do so at a favorable cap number.  He's the kind of role player that championship teams need.  And you also have to find a way to get him high end third guard touches and minutes.  The bad third guard treadmill can be really tough to get off.  These guys are so important for team glue.

 

Until he shows something, Hayward is untradable unless you are taking back a person in a bad situation (e.g. Porter for Hayward might work).

 

You could trade Kyrie, but I don't think you'll get much.  Kyrie's never really been healthy, and I doubt many teams looking to max Kyrie for 5 years (plus is he even going to stay with that team).

 

Horford is another guy you could move, but again I think the return would be disappointing.

 

They're construct looks very different if Tatum is simply an All Star vs. and MVP candidate.  Before they do anything, they have to make a decision on how good Tatum is.  Boston with MVP Tatum is scary in terms of right now and going forward.  Boston with All Star Tatum is good, but can be beaten.

 

(I'll point out that I've never really disagreed with you on Boston.  Boston to me could go either way.  And part of that will be what happens with the Kings pick.)

Edited November 12, 2018 by PeterMP

[Mr. Sinister]

Anybody who thought Boston was just gonna smash out of the gate was kidding themselves

[PeterMP]

6 minutes ago, Mr. Sinister said:

Anybody who thought Boston was just gonna smash out of the gate was kidding themselves

 

It isn't like Kyrie didn't play with them most of all of last year.  He got hurt in what March?  They could have absolutely stated Hayward on the bench and let him warm up to playing again as he found his role on the team.

 

Toronto has had to deal with losing a key player, gaining another one that really didn't play much at all last year, and a new coach.

 

Those seem to me to be larger obstacles to smashing out of the gate than what Boston faced.  I don't know their comparable strength of schedules, but just generically, if you would have asked me who was more likely to start 12-2 Boston or Toronto, I would have picked Boston.