PeterMP Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 (edited) Absolutely. It was during the year of the second 'ship that Kobe...became the player that teams worried about. Easy to stop Shaq...just foul him. Kobe has never been an elite 3 point shooter. He was a slasher that could also create his own shots. Kobe put the pressure on teams...Shaq was easily fouled and usually missed at least one of the attempts. Cost of doing business some would say. I'm not saying that teams didn't think this way, but if they did, they were dumb. Every SINGLE season that Kobe ever played, he shot less than 50%. Fouling Shaq in most cases, ended up in Shaq scoring at least 1 point (Shaq all but two seasons for the Lakers shot over 50% from the FT line). The result is that in every single season he was with the Lakers, Shaq had a better true shooting percentage (takes into account FT shot, made/missed, 2 point shots shoot, made/missed, and 3pt. shots shoot, and made/missed) than Kobe, and it isn't just true in a year-to-year comparison. Shaq's lowest year as a Laker was better than Kobe's best year while Shaq was in LA. And that doesn't even take into account the other disadvantages you have with the hack-a-Shaq strategy in terms of your players fouling out and ending up in the bonus allowing other (better) FT shooters shooting FTs for non-shooting fouls. The bigger point though is a slasher doesn't effectively open up the paint. They clog the paint. (Now, it works both ways because Shaq wasn't a perimeter threat either so you can think of it has Shaq clogging the paint for Kobe or Kobe clogging the paint for Shaq, but to claim that Kobe, as a poor 3 pt. shooting 2 guard opened up the paint is just laughable. Kobe getting better helped Shaq because it put less wear and tear and pressure on him. It meant that for a possession to be successful, it didn't have to start with throw the ball into the paint to Shaq, but they didn't open up the paint for one another.) Edited June 9, 2015 by PeterMP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 (edited) Anyone think Phil Jackson is out there secretly praying for the Cavs to win? This is essentially 90s basketball versus modern offense. A big bruising team with no interest in floor spacing versus a team that shoots three pointers on 3 on 1 fast break opportunities. I would say that I don't think GS is really a good example of a modern offense in that they get very little out of their 4 and especially their 5. I don't think if you started asking people in the context of offense what you want out of your 5, you'd get the characteristics of Bogut. Considering the offensive fire power that surrounds him, I don't think he's even a good distributor from your 5. A modern offense would look more like Curry with a 3 pt. shooting 2 guard that is also an elite defensive player (less scoring and ball handling than Thompson). Barnes can stay at the 3. Even Green is okay at the 4. And then somebody that is athletic at the 5 that is either a really good distributor (think a healthy Noah) or can really shoot (Bosh). You'd sacrifice some of Thompson's offensive flexibility, while maintaining elite D at the position for more offense from your 5 (and/or your 4). Edited June 9, 2015 by PeterMP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kosher Ham Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 Probably, but that doesn't take away from the fact that when Shaq and Kobe were together on the Lakers, Shaq was the better and more important player. Kobe fans just don't like hearing that Kobe was only the best player on two of those five titles, as if it takes away from his legacy, but its the stone cold truth. Not true. I am a Laker fan not a Kobe fan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kosher Ham Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 (edited) Peter...90% of Shaq's attempts where less than 3 feet away from the basket. Come on man. Edited June 9, 2015 by Kosher Ham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 I love that the NBA now calls out its officials for their blasphemy. LeBron certainly got hosed on non-calls last game down the stretch.Eh... the biggest non call, where he got hot on the forearms came after he blatantly traveled. Not letting him score there was the right outcome, even if getting there wasn't ideal. I just can't worked up over that. The Draymond Green hold on the tip ball was bad but it's not like they suddenly started calling him for shoving his defender or lowering his shoulder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 (edited) Peter...90% of Shaq's attempts where less than 3 feet away from the basket. Come on man. That doesn't really matter. That's what Shaq did and that's what made him great. Kobe never would have been able to and never did take 90% of his shots 3 ft. from the basket (and made them at the percentage that Shaq did). It isn't Shaq's fault that he was able to take large number of shots 3 ft. from the basket. It isn't like teams didn't try and prevent him from getting position and the ball 3 ft. from the basket. Teams didn't just let him get the ball 3 ft. from the basket. Eh... the biggest non call, where he got hot on the forearms came after he blatantly traveled. Not letting him score there was the right outcome, even if getting there wasn't ideal. I just can't worked up over that. The Draymond Green hold on the tip ball was bad but it's not like they suddenly started calling him for shoving his defender or lowering his shoulder. In the current NBA, they are never going to call that travel or the one on Mosgoz. You can say it is blatant (and at some level it is), but it isn't going to be called. The foul is routinely called. Edited June 9, 2015 by PeterMP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 In the current NBA, they are never going to call that travel or the one on Moskoz. You can say it is blatant (and at some level it is), but it isn't going to be called. The foul is routinely called. They absolutely call switching pivot foots after coming to a complete stop around the basket. If we were talking about taking an extra step on a drive or flat out walking on the perimeter I'd agree with you. What Lebron did is essentially the only kind of traveling the NBA regularly does whistle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predicto Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 So has this just been a two game thing, or is Golden State really this inept in transition? It's been a while since I've seen a good team generate so few fast breaks, and then make so many mistakes while running them. I hope it's a two game thing. The Dubs were the best team in the NBA in transition during the season. Hard to imagine that Cleveland has suddenly figured out something that no one else could see before. https://www.teamrankings.com/nba/stat/fastbreak-points-per-game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Momma There Goes That Man Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 What about when Lebron caught the inbounds pass and walked witht the ball about 5 steps to mid court before dribbling. Literally had it resting on his hip as he walked. I Think it was the 3rd don't remember actually forgot about it until I saw it on espn yesterday. The officiating has been awful all around but it's not costing or giving either side wins which would be the same if GS had pulled out game 2 instead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 They absolutely call switching pivot foots after coming to a complete stop around the basket. If we were talking about taking an extra step on a drive or flat out walking on the perimeter I'd agree with you. What Lebron did is essentially the only kind of traveling the NBA regularly does whistle. Here's an article from last year's finals about uncalled travels on Lebron. http://www.newsweek.com/nbas-extra-step-what-happened-traveling-254154 They didn't call it last year, they aren't calling this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 I hope it's a two game thing. The Dubs were the best team in the NBA in transition during the season. Hard to imagine that Cleveland has suddenly figured out something that no one else could see before. https://www.teamrankings.com/nba/stat/fastbreak-points-per-game Must be nerves then. So far, they aren't running enough fast breaks in large part because they aren't defensive rebounding well enough and because Cleveland has taken care of the ball. But they aren't pushing the pace enough when they do get defensive rebounds. If the perimeter players aren't going to box out, like they haven't been, then the Warriors should at least look to run. But a big problem has been the decision making of the ball handler running the break. Klay had a 2 on 1 last game and took it to the rim and got fouled. He should have passed it to the guy running with him to set up an uncontested dunk, but he made his FTs so, luckily, the outcome ended up being better. Curry had a 2 on 1 and an open lane to the rim and kicked it out to Barnes in the corner and Barnes bricked the three. Made the wrong decision there, and as previously mentioned, Iggy made a mistake when he passed it ahead to Speights and Speights had to take several dribbles. Watching John Wall play for five years has made me a connoisseur of fast breaks, and what strikes me is the lack of urgency in transition that the Warriors have demonstrated. No organization or hierarchy among the ball handlers either. They aren't quickly outleting the ball to Curry and Curry is not pushing it or attacking the rim in transition. He needs to be much more aggressive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 They absolutely call switching pivot foots after coming to a complete stop around the basket. If we were talking about taking an extra step on a drive or flat out walking on the perimeter I'd agree with you. What Lebron did is essentially the only kind of traveling the NBA regularly does whistle. You're right. They absolutely do call moving the pivot foot. Nene gets called for it all the time. Usually comes as a player starts his move, where he begins executing his steps before the first dribble lands. But it also happens at the end of the move where the player is set up for the shot and makes an extra move after gathering themselves. And you're right that it is essentially the only type of travel that they regularly call. The other one they occasionally call is the rare instance when a player jumps but doesn't get a shot or pass off. Players that catch the ball on the run while they are coming to a stop are essentially allowed to take unlimited steps to stop. And players that pick up their dribble on the way to the rim are allowed to to take three, four, sometimes five steps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 I actually agree with not calling travels when players catch the ball on the move while they're stopping, and not calling them when a player picks up his dribble on the way to the rim. No advantage is gained by the offensive player in those situations. They've already beaten the defense if they're on the way to the rim. Especially on breakaways. And who cares if they take too many steps to stop moving? The defender has no trouble staying in front of a stationary player. Calling travels in these situations would be needlessly disruptive. Calling a travel when they pick up their pivot foot or jump and land without getting rid of the ball is what matters. Those are situations when the defense has won and the offensive player is forced to travel as a result. Either they won the position battle or the offensive player made a mistake and got too close to the rim, or made a mistake in their footwork, or didn't generate the space they needed for the shot, or the defense successfully closed the passing/shooting lane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Momma There Goes That Man Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 It's definitely an advantage if a player can pick up their dribble a step or two earlier and tuck or protect the ball as they move between defenders on their drive to the basket Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 It's definitely an advantage if a player can pick up their dribble a step or two earlier and tuck or protect the ball as they move between defenders on their drive to the basket If he's already gotten by the defender, it's a marginal advantage at best. The defense failed by failing to stay in front of the offensive player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Momma There Goes That Man Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 (edited) If he's already gotten by the defender, it's a marginal advantage at best. The defense failed by failing to stay in front of the offensive player. I don't disagree with you but I'm talking about when somebody like Lebron or Kobe etc will drive down the lane with defenders still in front of them and will tuck the ball into their stomach so nobody can poke it away until they are in the air and can try the shot. Those extra 1-2 steps without allowing the defense a real chance are valuable compared to putting the ball on the floor and driving into that same traffic. Edited June 9, 2015 by Momma There Goes That Man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcsluggo Posted June 9, 2015 Share Posted June 9, 2015 Shaq wouldn't have won a ring in Miami if he had Smush Parker, Devean George, Luke Walton and Ronnie Turiaf out there with him either. but... Shaq (in his prime) would have made it to the playoffs. (and Lebron has demonstrated that he would'v made a run in the playoffs with those scrubs .... ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TradeTheBeal! Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 Really looking forward to the game tonight. I see the Dubs bouncing back nicely. Dubs 107 Cavs 99 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morrison J Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 Lebron to drop 50. Cavs win by 4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvilMonkeyBoy Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 Wade is doing pregame for ABC? I know it's a check and his bond with James is still strong, but man I'd still be pretty salty that this was how I ended up at the Finals if I was him. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CRobi21 Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 Worst PA announcer voice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Momma There Goes That Man Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 Cleveland has a nice crowd tonight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 If he wants to get into TV after his career is over, then he's probably just glad for the opportunity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Momma There Goes That Man Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 but... Shaq (in his prime) would have made it to the playoffs. (and Lebron has demonstrated that he would'v made a run in the playoffs with those scrubs .... ) Kobe got there 2 straight years and nearly knocked out the 1 seed Suns. He did ok with what he was given. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 Let's see how long Bogut stays in if he's still struggling. Eh, bad start for him. I like Curry's aggressiveness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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