The Official ES All Things Redskins Name Change Thread (Reboot Edition---Read New OP)

[Jumbo]

Washington Crimsonepidermises?

[ixcuincle]

They lose revenue more because the team is awful. I wouldn't buy any of their **** if they won three games and like 20 in 6 years

And again I have a ton of nats and caps **** but why would I want to roll with anything from a dumpster fire of an organization

[Major Harris]

Yeah that won't ever happen.

What is a real thing is possibly having a big sponsor starting a fuss.

When millions start flushing down the toilet, **** will get really real

Oh that will happen at some point. How much is an effect it'll have remains to be seen.

[Bonez3]

Well yeah, the Vikings logo is a white dude with blonde hair. But do we have other teams named the Asians, African Americans, or Latinos?

.

So you're saying that other races are used as imagery. Good.

I'm not telling anyone else they can't be offended either. The PETA example protesting the Packers. I don't care if they're offended, I don't have to respect it either.

So yes, other races (your original point) are depicted and frankly in a much less respectable manner. Don't change your point to say 'well, every single race on the world isn't depicted'.

Look, NAs can be offended. The word has been objectively proven to historically non-racist. The word in contemporary fashion basically refers to a football team. I don't have to respect anyone's feelings if I don't believe their claims are legitimate. Further, I don't tell them not to be offended.

I've said all along Indian is by far more insensitive than Redskin. And, probably offends two groups of people (races). But, we're the lightening rod and the fact we shoulder all the NA imagery fuss is unfair.

IMO- you should feel same sentiment to teams named Indians, Braves, etc. but I really don't care if you don't.

[grego]

 

 

But Vikings didn't represent all the white dudes in the 13th century, just some guys speaking Norse who raided Scandanivan homelands. 

 

Again, this has been a really hard thing for me. I've been wrestling with this issue for a while. I love this team so much but I understand things need to change. 

 

not to get technical, but, not all native americans have 'red' skin.

 

i'll try to find the article i posted a week or two ago (found it- posting it below) but alaskan natives have different DNA from more southern natives, but are still native americans. they were boycotting fed ex over the name, yet i know of no evidence that they ever reffered to themselves as 'redskins' like the ones europeans first encountered.

 

and it would be odd if anyone did, since their skin resembles the color of modern asians to whom they are apparently related.

 

but, i think redskins and vikings as descriptors are very close in terms of what they actually refer to. 

 

 

 

https://en.wikipedia...re_and_genetics

 

The Na-Dené, Inuit and Indigenous Alaskan populations exhibit haplogroup Q-M242 (Y-DNA) mutations, however, that are distinct from other indigenous Amerindians, and that have various mtDNA and atDNA mutations.[239][240][241] This suggests that the paleo-Indian migrants into the northern extremes of North America and Greenland were descended from a later, independent migrant population.[242][243]

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.../Alaska_Natives

Alaska Natives are indigenous peoples of Alaska, United States: Iñupiat, Yupik, Aleut, Eyak, Tlingit, Haida, Tsimshian, and a number of Northern Athabaskan cultures. They are often defined by their language groups. Alaskan Natives are enrolled in federally recognized Alaska Native tribal entities, who in turn belong to 13 Alaska Native Regional Corporations, who administer land and financial claims.

Ancestors of the Alaska Natives are known to have migrated into the area thousands of years ago, in at least two different waves. Some are descendants of a third wave of migration in which people settled across the northern part of North America. They never migrated to southern areas. For this reason, genetic studies show they are not closely related to Native Americans in South America.

[Boss_Hogg]

So you're saying that other races are used as imagery. Good.

I'm not telling anyone else they can't be offended either. The PETA example protesting the Packers. I don't care if they're offended, I don't have to respect it either.

So yes, other races (your original point) are depicted and frankly in a much less respectable manner. Don't change your point to say 'well, every single race on the world isn't depicted'.

Look, NAs can be offended. The word has been objectively proven to historically non-racist. The word in contemporary fashion basically refers to a football team. I don't have to respect anyone's feelings if I don't believe their claims are legitimate. Further, I don't tell them not to be offended.

I've said all along Indian Isolde insensitive than Redskin. But, we're the lightening rod and the fact we shoulder all the NA imagery fuss is unfair.

IMO- you should feel same sentiment to teams named Indians, Braves, etc. but I really don't care if you don't.

 

but, i think redskins and vikings as terms are very close in terms of what they actually refer to. 

 

But which human sports mascot has been clinically proven to cause emotional stress and anxiety for a race of people?

 

Does the vikings logo establish an unwelcome and hostile learning environment for white kids in school?

 

Does the Vikings logo affirm negative stereotypes of white people in mainstream society?

 

Does the logo undermine white people from portraying accurate and respectful images of white culture? 

 

I too have always associated Redskin with my favorite football team. But we cannot deny that many Natives outside of the DMV view it a different way.  

[Dont Taze Me Bro]

Can we go after the Buffalo Bills now?

 

 

~Bang

No way, we are going after the Jets.  It's offensive to these guys.....

 

 

 

I don't expect some of the youngins to get this....

[RFKFedEx]

The word has been objectively proven to historically non-racist. The word in contemporary fashion basically refers to a football team.

 

Totally!

[Xameil]

I too have always associated Redskin with my favorite football team. But we cannot deny that many Natives outside of the DMV view it a different way.

I hope you aren't referring to the asshat in NY who is opening a casino honoring a man that was very vocal about his hatred for Native Americans. Not to mention stealing homes from his own people to expand his casino

[Larry]

But which human sports mascot has been clinically proven to cause emotional stress and anxiety for a race of people?

 

Does the vikings logo establish an unwelcome and hostile learning environment for white kids in school?

 

Does the Vikings logo affirm negative stereotypes of white people in mainstream society?

 

Does the logo undermine white people from portraying accurate and respectful images of white culture? 

 

I too have always associated Redskin with my favorite football team. But we cannot deny that many Natives outside of the DMV view it a different way.

This may sound silly, but I get the impression that you're making a whole lot of what sound like completely BS claims about the Washington Redskins.

You got any support for all those claims that you're kinda making?

[grego]

 

But which human sports mascot has been clinically proven to cause emotional stress and anxiety for a race of people?

 

Does the vikings logo establish an unwelcome and hostile learning environment for white kids in school?

 

Does the Vikings logo affirm negative stereotypes of white people in mainstream society?

 

Does the logo undermine white people from portraying accurate and respectful images of white culture? 

 

I too have always associated Redskin with my favorite football team. But we cannot deny that many Natives outside of the DMV view it a different way.  

 

 

 

i have heard about this emotional distress mascot study. its something im sure i'll look into, but also something i have questions about, probably starting with why countless native american high schools would continue to use native american mascots if it damages them emotionally. 

 

we had a sociology professor run a 'poll' last year about the name. i'm wondering if this study youre talking about isnt another one of those bogus studies.

[Xameil]

And Jeeps

Guess the legacy of being some of the fiercest and most effective warriors in the history of our country is super offensive

Let's now apply that same standard to all symbols and words relating to the history of our country. Who is with me?

Will be a fun exercise.

Damnit...I forgot about Jeep

[Taylor703]

It sucks, this shouldn't be the outcome but just change it. I just hope we do something patriotic.

[RFKFedEx]

Native themed automobiles, summer camps, and military weapons all fall under the umbrella of unintentional celebrations of manifest destiny. The unintentional aspect is becoming increasingly suspect with time and education. The sports mascots are the easiest target. 

[Bonez3]

 

But which human sports mascot has been clinically proven to cause emotional stress and anxiety for a race of people?

 

Does the vikings logo establish an unwelcome and hostile learning environment for white kids in school?

 

Does the Vikings logo affirm negative stereotypes of white people in mainstream society?

 

Does the logo undermine white people from portraying accurate and respectful images of white culture? 

 

I too have always associated Redskin with my favorite football team. But we cannot deny that many Natives outside of the DMV view it a different way.  

 

Emotional stress and anxiety... IDK and just wow. But again, that's not just Redskins. And I've been of the mind in for penny/pound. If Redskins goes, than all imagery goes.

 

But nonetheless, that was not what you said. Just to focus in, you said NO OTHER RACE IS DEPICTED.

[tshile]

you can see the number of people that are just tired of the fight growing.

 

not minds being changed, people on one side just sick of fighting.

 

oh well.

[@DCGoldPants]

A few thoughts today.

 

Hearing Sheehan on 980 on the topic again reminded me that guys like him are not who you want defending the name. Too emotional and scatter-brained. Of course its political. But once you start whining about that, you've already lost.

 

He was right about the white men movement of Wise/King/Costas being what gives this perception thing more legs.

 

But the response from name defenders should be simple. It should actually be a question. "Why can't these people convince Native Americans who use the mascot for their own schools and sports, to stop?"

 

and that's it. Just different variations of that question. 

 

I still think that the NFL will vote as a group of owners that both the Redskins and then the Chiefs will need to change their names. It will be perception based. It will be tied to sponsorship. Then the league will need to kick in big money to help pay for the changes.

[Bonez3]

Not me

 

you can see the number of people that are just tired of the fight growing.

 

not minds being changed, people on one side just sick of fighting.

 

oh well.

Not me, fact is, if it were to change I would continue to use the name and promote it to my children until they're old enough to make the decision for themselves. 

 

I will never accept the name as racist. If the entire sports world removes NA imagery, than I will not promote the name to my children. Because all it means now is a football team and I personally have never heard the word uttered in any other fashion. And, I would bet a dollar to a donut that my children will never hear the word either if the name changes.

 

It will almost effectively be removed from the English vernacular...But NA's proabably will still refer to themselves as it on reservations based on reading I've done. And not in the sense AA use the N word. 

[Boss_Hogg]

i have heard about this emotional distress mascot study. its something im sure i'll look into, but also something i have questions about, probably starting with why countless native american high schools would continue to use native american mascots if it damages them emotionally. 

 

we had a sociology professor run a 'poll' last year about the name. i'm wondering if this study youre talking about isnt another one of those bogus studies.

 

 

This may sound silly, but I get the impression that you're making a whole lot of what sound like completely BS claims about the Washington Redskins.

You got any support for all those claims that you're kinda making?

 

 

Emotional stress and anxiety... IDK and just wow. But again, that's not just Redskins. And I've been of the mind in for penny/pound. If Redskins goes, than all imagery goes.

 

But nonetheless, that was not what you said. Just to focus in, you said NO OTHER RACE IS DEPICTED.

 

http://www.apa.org/pi/oema/resources/indian-mascots.aspx

 

Retirement of American Indian Mascots

In 2005 the American Psychological Association (APA) called for the immediate retirement of all American Indian mascots, symbols, images and personalities by schools, colleges, universities, athletic teams and organizations. APA's position is based on a growing body of social science literature that shows the harmful effects of racial stereotyping and inaccurate racial portrayals, including the particularly harmful effects of American Indian sports mascots on the social identity development and self-esteem of American Indian young people.

Research has shown that the continued use of American Indian mascots, symbols, images, and personalities has a negative effect on not only American Indians students but all students by:

• Undermining the educational experiences of members of all communities-especially those who have had little or no contact with Indigenous peoples.The symbols, images and mascots teach non-Indian children that it's acceptable to participate in culturally abusive behavior and perpetuate inaccurate misconceptions about American Indian culture.

• Establishes an unwelcome and often times hostile learning environment for American Indians students that affirms negative images/stereotypes that are promoted in mainstream society.

According to Dr. Stephanie Fryberg, University of Arizona, this appears to have a negative impact on the self-esteem of American Indian children. "American Indian mascots are harmful not only because they are often negative, but because they remind American Indians of the limited ways in which others see them. This in turn restricts the number of ways American Indians can see themselves."

• Undermines the ability of American Indian Nations to portray accurate and respectful images of their culture, spirituality, and traditions. Many American Indians report that they find today's typical portrayal of American Indian culture disrespectful and offensive to their spiritual beliefs.

• Presents stereotypical images of American Indians 

  Such mascots are a contemporary example of prejudice by the dominant culture against racial and ethnic minority groups.

• Is a form of discrimination against American Indian Nations that can lead to negative relations between groups.

"We know from the literature that oppression, covert and overt racism, and perceived racism can have serious negative consequences for the mental health of American Indian and Alaska native (AIAN) people. The discontinued use of American Indian mascots is a gesture to show that this kind of racism toward and the disrespect of, all people in our country and in the larger global context, will not be tolerated," said Dr. Lisa Thomas, APA Committee on Ethnic and Minority Affairs.

To eradicate the hurtful presence of stereotypical imaging of Americans Indians the American Psychological Association encourages continued research on the psychological effects that these mascots, symbols, images, and personalities have on American Indians communities and others; and

American Psychological Association is calling upon all psychologists to speak out against racism, and take proactive steps to prevent the occurrence of intolerant or racist acts and recommends the immediate retirement of American Indians mascots, symbols, images, and personalities by schools, colleges, universities, athletic teams, and organizations.

This document is based on the APA American Indian Mascot Resolution adopted by the Association's Council for Representatives in September 2005.

Full text of the official APA American Indian Mascot Resolution can be found here.

-------

[grego]

 

But which human sports mascot has been clinically proven to cause emotional stress and anxiety for a race of people?

 

 

 

 

just perused a few paragraphs about that study. one thing that stood out was that the study appears to lump together all mascots without distinction. this includes the ridiculous cleveland indians mascot. i'm guessing the atlanta braves tomahawk chop is also included at some point. 

 

its unfair to lump all native mascots together as if they are all the same. the redskins dignified, native american designed logo is nothing like the above examples (though the florida state seminole tomahawk chop is a different issue due to support from the tribe- if they support it, then nobody can say otherwise)

 

The unintentional aspect is becoming increasingly suspect with time and education. 

 

i would argue the same is true for the claims of harjo, blackhorse and halbritter.

[Bonez3]

http://www.apa.org/pi/oema/resources/indian-mascots.aspx

 

Retirement of American Indian Mascots

In 2005 the American Psychological Association (APA) called for the immediate retirement of all American Indian mascots, symbols, images and personalities by schools, colleges, universities, athletic teams and organizations. APA's position is based on a growing body of social science literature that shows the harmful effects of racial stereotyping and inaccurate racial portrayals, including the particularly harmful effects of American Indian sports mascots on the social identity development and self-esteem of American Indian young people.

Research has shown that the continued use of American Indian mascots, symbols, images, and personalities has a negative effect on not only American Indians students but all students by:

• Undermining the educational experiences of members of all communities-especially those who have had little or no contact with Indigenous peoples.The symbols, images and mascots teach non-Indian children that it's acceptable to participate in culturally abusive behavior and perpetuate inaccurate misconceptions about American Indian culture.

• Establishes an unwelcome and often times hostile learning environment for American Indians students that affirms negative images/stereotypes that are promoted in mainstream society.

According to Dr. Stephanie Fryberg, University of Arizona, this appears to have a negative impact on the self-esteem of American Indian children. "American Indian mascots are harmful not only because they are often negative, but because they remind American Indians of the limited ways in which others see them. This in turn restricts the number of ways American Indians can see themselves."

• Undermines the ability of American Indian Nations to portray accurate and respectful images of their culture, spirituality, and traditions. Many American Indians report that they find today's typical portrayal of American Indian culture disrespectful and offensive to their spiritual beliefs.

• Presents stereotypical images of American Indians 

  Such mascots are a contemporary example of prejudice by the dominant culture against racial and ethnic minority groups.

• Is a form of discrimination against American Indian Nations that can lead to negative relations between groups.

"We know from the literature that oppression, covert and overt racism, and perceived racism can have serious negative consequences for the mental health of American Indian and Alaska native (AIAN) people. The discontinued use of American Indian mascots is a gesture to show that this kind of racism toward and the disrespect of, all people in our country and in the larger global context, will not be tolerated," said Dr. Lisa Thomas, APA Committee on Ethnic and Minority Affairs.

To eradicate the hurtful presence of stereotypical imaging of Americans Indians the American Psychological Association encourages continued research on the psychological effects that these mascots, symbols, images, and personalities have on American Indians communities and others; and

American Psychological Association is calling upon all psychologists to speak out against racism, and take proactive steps to prevent the occurrence of intolerant or racist acts and recommends the immediate retirement of American Indians mascots, symbols, images, and personalities by schools, colleges, universities, athletic teams, and organizations.

This document is based on the APA American Indian Mascot Resolution adopted by the Association's Council for Representatives in September 2005.

Full text of the official APA American Indian Mascot Resolution can be found here.

-------

Like I said, I get it. And like I said, just wow. 

 

Florida Seminole imagery near identical to Redskins. Approved by Seminoles... are their images grouped into these emotionally injured?

 

But, again, I won't say you can't have emotions or anxiety or be offended. 

 

YOU'RE POINT WAS NO OTHER RACES ARE DEPICTED, AND THEY JUST ARE.

[grego]

actually, boss hogg, from this article, it appears that for this particular study, chief wahoo was the only mascot used. 

 

if they are concluding that all native mascots are bad based on this particular study, well, they arent very good at their jobs, to be kind. clevelands mascot is a caricature and is in a class by itself. 

 

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/science-small-talk/201205/the-native-american-mascot-tribute-or-stereotype

 

A few years ago, researchers at Arizona, Stanford, and Michigan conducted a series of studies(link is external) to find out. Their first experiment found evidence to support the idea that sports mascots can be a source of pride in Native American communities. In this study, high school students on an Indian reservation in Arizona who read a brief paragraph about the use of these mascots (accompanied by a photo of Chief Wahoo, the smiling logo of the Cleveland Indians) subsequently used more positive words when asked to write down their first thoughts that came to mind in describing Native Americans.

This finding indicates that mascot representations are not always regarded as negative—and that surveys of members of Native American communities may very indicate explicit support for the nicknames. But the question remains, what of the psychological effects of these mascots on Native American individuals? On this count, the data are not so kind to the pro-mascot case.

In follow-up studies, the same researchers again presented high school respondents with various passages and images related to Native Americans. After reading about mascots (and seeing Chief Wahoo), Native American respondents scored lower on an individual self-esteem questionnaire, as well as a measure of their sense of community worth (i.e., feelings of respect and a sense of value towards Native Americans). In fact, scores for self- and community-worth were even lower among students who had seen Chief Wahoo than they were among those who read about the common depiction of Native American communities as suffering from high rates of alcoholism, suicide, and teen pregnancy.

[RFKFedEx]

Florida Seminole imagery near identical to Redskins. Approved by Seminoles... are their images grouped into these emotionally injured?

Check out the history of how, what, when, and where FSU's Native theme came to be. The F$U powers have done an amazing job of selling show biz in the name of honor. Winning like crazy on the field hasn't hurt them either.  

[TK]

PRESS RELEASE

For Immediate Release

July 8, 2015

STATEMENT FROM PRESIDENT BRUCE ALLEN

“I am surprised by the judge's decision to prevent us from presenting our evidence in an open trial. We look forward to winning on appeal after a fair and impartial review of the case. We are convinced that we will win because the facts and the law are on the side of our franchise that has proudly used the name Redskins for more than 80 years.”

[Bonez3]

Check out the history of how, what, when, and where FSU's Native theme came to be. The F$U powers have done an amazing job of selling show biz in the name of honor. Winning like crazy on the field hasn't hurt them either.  

I'm sure there was $ influencing this agreement.

 

And I wouldn't be one bit surprised that most emotional stress data refers around studies that only depicted the cartoonish Wahoo. 

 

I would love to see a non-american and non-NA population of people objectively view picture of Redskins Mascot and ask to describe what feelings they get. Perform survey in Asia, Africa, Europe, etc.

 

What pray tell do you think would be result. My hypothesis is that most would report in their language the see 'proud, strong, dignified person'. The image is positive and human reaction can be objectified in assessing imagery, it crosses cultural divides.

 

Than, I would like to see that study performed using only Redskins mascot on same high school kids and see their response and follow up self esteem scores.