The Official ES All Things Redskins Name Change Thread (Reboot Edition---Read New OP)

[codeorama]

Lombardi, Great point, if NA's were extinct, there would be no issue. There'd be no one to offend.

Bonez, the original Celts are extinct. What is left is a "reinvention". 

[Califan007 The Constipated]

My point with Irish weren't to compare the names, but to highlight cultural infringement. Which I think is actually more driving force... 'Change the Mascot'

 

For me specifically, I was responding to RawBBQSauce's post, not yours...

[War Paint]

Unfortunately, that's not really a very good job of speaking out "on our behalf" lol...

Well, it's the first time I've heard someone in the media say "this whole controversy is nuts and that basically it's all PC BS" lol.

[jskins11]

I've been a long time lurker on this board - very few posts, but I feel compelled to finally post on this topic.

 

I'm 33 and have been a Redskins fan as long as I can remember. Like all of you, I do not use the term 'Redskins' with any racial intent, nor does Snyder or anyone else with the team. While this debate has certainly gotten louder over the last few years, it's not a new issue. As a 'skins fan, I'd always turned a deaf ear to this debate chalking it up as political correctness.

 

To be sure, I am still not sold. I agree with many of you that this is a "white media" contrived debate. Yes, there are clearly large, vocal groups of Native Americans who are, and always have been, offended by the term. But, as has been re-hashed over and over, there are some who actually use the term themselves. I also find it convenient that the volume of this debate has been increased dramatically since RG3 has been here. This has nothing to do with RG3 himself, but rather the national publicity given to the team in the last two years with RG3 (and the 2012 success) has led to more people talking about us and paying attention. Funny that you didn't (or at least I didn't) hear very much of this racially offensive talk when Grossman was QB. 

 

I haven't lived in the DC area since I was 12. Over that time I've steadfastly maintained my loyalty and identificaiton as a Redskins fan. I honestly can't remember the last game I didn't watch. And, as a Redskins fan, I've become accostomed to the ego-demoralizing nature of being a fan of a traditionally losing team over the last two decades. As many of you I'm sure can relate, there is definitely an embarrassment factor associated with being a stubborn die hard fan that refuses to quit on the team even when we're mired in a 3-13 season.

 

The last few months however, I have begun to feel a new kind of embarrassment. Maybe that's not the right word. Perhaps self-conscious is more appropriate. The volume of this debate has turned up to the point that it really isn't a debate anymore. This is a PR nightmare for the team, and the debate is over. The pressure will continue to mount, and Redskins fans will continue to attack back as any cornered animal would.

 

My sister, who still lives in the area, just bought my son a few Redskins shirts to get him ready for the upcoming season. He put them on and we took some pics and posted them to Facebook. More than a few people made comments about the racially insensitive nature of the name, and a few of my closer friends even sent me text messages about the picture. Say what you want about these people, but they have adopted this opinion of the name (an opinion that they never even came close to bringing up even 2 years ago), An opinion largely supported, from what it seems by the media, and the media are a powerful entitity in this country in terms of shaping public opinion.

 

My point is, I feel wrong/ashamed/embarrassed to dress my son in Redskins clothes, and I feel self-conscious wearing them myself. I'm sure many will make the same argument, but I am as big a Redskins fan as they come. Yet I feel....just wrong.... about publicaly showing that support. I've visited the DC area regularly over the years, and it's different there. People are wearing the colors and name and logo all over the place. Kids in schools are wearing it without a second thought. In some ways it's refreshing to visit somewhere where I feel "welcome," as it were. But outside of the DC area, it's not like that.

 

It is for this reason I feel the name should be changed. For Snyder to dig his heels in, while my ego/fandom suffers as a result is not fair to me, and it is not fair to all the other supporters of the team. I, we, shouldn't have to feel uncomfortable about adorning our team's name/colors. I shouldn't have to fend off friends who feel it appropriate to caution me about putting my son in 'skins gear.

 

I know there are those of you who disagree, and that's fine. I'll never walk away from this team. I can't envision not ever being a fan. My son will grow up being a fan of this team (come hell or high water!!!). Maybe I've constructed this feeling of embarrassment in my own mind, but the truth is, I am VERY conscious of publically showing my fandom to this team, and that wasn't the case 2 years ago (It has nothing to do with the 3-13 season).

 

As I said at the top, I'm not a frequent poster, but rather a long-time lurker. I come to this board multiple times daily to get my fix. Keep doing what you all are doing. We'll make it through together!

[Bonez3]

I've been a long time lurker on this board - very few posts, but I feel compelled to finally post on this topic.

I'm 33 and have been a Redskins fan as long as I can remember. Like all of you, I do not use the term 'Redskins' with any racial intent, nor does Snyder or anyone else with the team. While this debate has certainly gotten louder over the last few years, it's not a new issue. As a 'skins fan, I'd always turned a deaf ear to this debate chalking it up as political correctness.

To be sure, I am still not sold. I agree with many of you that this is a "white media" contrived debate. Yes, there are clearly large, vocal groups of Native Americans who are, and always have been, offended by the term. But, as has been re-hashed over and over, there are some who actually use the term themselves. I also find it convenient that the volume of this debate has been increased dramatically since RG3 has been here. This has nothing to do with RG3 himself, but rather the national publicity given to the team in the last two years with RG3 (and the 2012 success) has led to more people talking about us and paying attention. Funny that you didn't (or at least I didn't) hear very much of this racially offensive talk when Grossman was QB.

I haven't lived in the DC area since I was 12. Over that time I've steadfastly maintained my loyalty and identificaiton as a Redskins fan. I honestly can't remember the last game I didn't watch. And, as a Redskins fan, I've become accostomed to the ego-demoralizing nature of being a fan of a traditionally losing team over the last two decades. As many of you I'm sure can relate, there is definitely an embarrassment factor associated with being a stubborn die hard fan that refuses to quit on the team even when we're mired in a 3-13 season.

The last few months however, I have begun to feel a new kind of embarrassment. Maybe that's not the right word. Perhaps self-conscious is more appropriate. The volume of this debate has turned up to the point that it really isn't a debate anymore. This is a PR nightmare for the team, and the debate is over. The pressure will continue to mount, and Redskins fans will continue to attack back as any cornered animal would.

My sister, who still lives in the area, just bought my son a few Redskins shirts to get him ready for the upcoming season. He put them on and we took some pics and posted them to Facebook. More than a few people made comments about the racially insensitive nature of the name, and a few of my closer friends even sent me text messages about the picture. Say what you want about these people, but they have adopted this opinion of the name (an opinion that they never even came close to bringing up even 2 years ago), An opinion largely supported, from what it seems by the media, and the media are a powerful entitity in this country in terms of shaping public opinion.

My point is, I feel wrong/ashamed/embarrassed to dress my son in Redskins clothes, and I feel self-conscious wearing them myself. I'm sure many will make the same argument, but I am as big a Redskins fan as they come. Yet I feel....just wrong.... about publicaly showing that support. I've visited the DC area regularly over the years, and it's different there. People are wearing the colors and name and logo all over the place. Kids in schools are wearing it without a second thought. In some ways it's refreshing to visit somewhere where I feel "welcome," as it were. But outside of the DC area, it's not like that.

It is for this reason I feel the name should be changed. For Snyder to dig his heels in, while my ego/fandom suffers as a result is not fair to me, and it is not fair to all the other supporters of the team. I, we, shouldn't have to feel uncomfortable about adorning our team's name/colors. I shouldn't have to fend off friends who feel it appropriate to caution me about putting my son in 'skins gear.

I know there are those of you who disagree, and that's fine. I'll never walk away from this team. I can't envision not ever being a fan. My son will grow up being a fan of this team (come hell or high water!!!). Maybe I've constructed this feeling of embarrassment in my own mind, but the truth is, I am VERY conscious of publically showing my fandom to this team, and that wasn't the case 2 years ago (It has nothing to do with the 3-13 season).

As I said at the top, I'm not a frequent poster, but rather a long-time lurker. I come to this board multiple times daily to get my fix. Keep doing what you all are doing. We'll make it through together!

It's all good man. I don't 'hate' on the other side.

But like you, I'm the opposite experience. I dress all 4 of my kids in Redskins gear. I took them to Richmond last year with my dad and wife, everybody fully geared up. I'll never change, and if the team changes name, Im done with buying anything.

Further, I live in Eagle country and the haters seem to a person agree that it is not offensive.

2 sides to every story

[Califan007 The Constipated]

I just get irritated with the absolute lack of logic used in a LOT of this debate lol...(not talking about on this thread, btw).

 

One argument being used as proof that 'redskin' is a racial slur is this doozy:

 

"Go to an Indian reservation and go up to some parents with their kids, and say to them 'You have some cute little redskins'...see if they aren't offended when you do."

 

Can anyone else see the stupidity of that comment besides me?

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

My point with Irish weren't to compare the names, but to highlight cultural infringement. Which I think is actually more driving force... 'Change the Mascot'

 

 

Except there was no cultural infringement with the Fighting Irish. There was a cultural reclamation. (Granted, I sort of hate what "Irish" has come to mean in American Culture - a guy whose great grandfather came from Cork throwing up green beer on St. Patricks Day but that's another stoy).

[RawBBQSauce]

To be fair, look up the history of how the Irish were treated in the UK and here pretty lousy. Not as bad as the Native American, but horrible nonetheless. And the, you get to be represented by a leprechaun. It would be easy to choose to see this as offensive.

 

If the public were made more aware of this history, I think you'd see a bit more backlash. I think the issue lies in the uncertainty of a white American's true heritage. White America doesn't know who to fight for because they identify themselves at white Americans. Has White America ever been oppressed other than by way of summer heat waves?

 

I know that my ancestry is mainly Scottish and Irish. But I do have some Cherokee. Who do I identify with to fight for? Which nationality deserves my voice in a fight? I really do not know. So if someone chooses to fight for something, whether it be for themselves or on behalf of another group of people, you should listen, at least, in hopes of understanding their point of view.

[SWFLSkins]

IF Snyder has enough money to offer, I can get my 23 students to change their votes...

I'm out of likes too... Good stuff going on today!

 

I remember when you could buy a kid's loyalty for .50c lol. Man I sound like my Dad. 

I just get irritated with the absolute lack of logic used in a LOT of this debate lol...(not talking about on this thread, btw).

 

One argument being used as proof that 'redskin' is a racial slur is this doozy:

 

"Go to an Indian reservation and go up to some parents with their kids, and say to them 'You have some cute little redskins'...see if they aren't offended when you do."

 

Can anyone else see the stupidity of that comment besides me?

 

Better yet use Code's personally dangerous suggestion, walk into a bar and say it, lol. Would make great Youtube material though. 

[Califan007 The Constipated]

I remember when you could buy a kid's loyalty for .50c lol. Man I sound like my Dad. 

 

Money for the ice cream truck was more than enough lol...

[codeorama]

These kids today have money, I"m looking around the room, iPhones, Beats headphones 200.00 nikes.  Crazy.

I feel bad for the ones that don't.  There are a few in each class that don't have cell phones, usually just a few though.

[SWFLSkins]

I've been a long time lurker on this board - very few posts, but I feel compelled to finally post on this topic.

 

I'm 33 and have been a Redskins fan as long as I can remember. 

 

My point is, I feel wrong/ashamed/embarrassed to dress my son in Redskins clothes, and I feel self-conscious wearing them myself. I'm sure many will make the same argument, but I am as big a Redskins fan as they come. Yet I feel....just wrong.... about publicaly showing that support. I've visited the DC area regularly over the years, and it's different there. People are wearing the colors and name and logo all over the place. Kids in schools are wearing it without a second thought. In some ways it's refreshing to visit somewhere where I feel "welcome," as it were. But outside of the DC area, it's not like that.

 

It is for this reason I feel the name should be changed. 

 

It's all good man. I don't 'hate' on the other side.

But like you, I'm the opposite experience. I dress all 4 of my kids in Redskins gear. I took them to Richmond last year with my dad and wife, everybody fully geared up. I'll never change, and if the team changes name, Im done with buying anything.

Further, I live in Eagle country and the haters seem to a person agree that it is not offensive.

2 sides to every story

 

 

jskins, I certainly understand how you feel, however I disagree with changing the name solely for one reason. Bowing to pressure from the mediots empowers them, we must fight back. You ever heard the term, line in the sand? Well if you keep drawing lines but don't defend them, sooner rather than later you are standing in a box with no where to turn. I agree with Bonez, if a new name is brought up I will cheer the team on, I won't use my money to placate weakness in the face of adversity. 

 

For that simple reason why I am so enamored with the Native American way. I posted before, two of my favorite tribes never conceded and were simply pushed into the Everglades. In all actuality we here in Florida are inhabiting their land still to this day.... they could sue, _ no more Florida jokes, the land is worth plenty, lol.. 

[ZRagone]

 

SWFL, Just for fun, (today is the last day of school, its a formality, we are just having class parties), I just conducted a poll...

(I have 23 students in class)

1. Do you think the Redsksins name is offensive?  All 23 raised their hand for NO

2. Have you had any significant time around Native Americans? All 23 raised their hand NO

3. I shared my personal experience to them and asked question number 1 again.  All 23 raised their hand YES.

Aww, how kind of you to indoctrinate your capitve audience of children to your political views in a one sided fashion.

 

I"m just pointing out that I'd bet the majority of people in these "polls" have little to no interaction with NA's.

You're pointing out that taking a bunch of individuals with likely very little information, to either side, on this issue and giving them ONE persons ANECDOTAL experience and nothing else...that they'll just go off what that one person says, especially if that person is an authority figure.

-edit-

Reading on, at least you finally did actually try to present an objective view of both sides, though from reading you on this thread I have no doubt what so ever it was clear to those listening what you felt was valid and worth while and what wasn't. And attempting to give more information after an initial point where you clearly made your position and point felt on what's write or wrong with your anecdotal story is unlikely to really change the initial impact on children getting told such from a teacher.

[Gamebreaker]

Califan, just showed the class your response on the promethean board...

 

I explained:  " A professor at the Smithsonian did a study and concluded that the word "Redskin" originated from the NA's themselves.  They referred to themselves as red skins and europeans as white skins.  No one changed their vote.  In fact, one student brought up the fact that its ok for black kids to use the N word, because its about them, but when others do it, its an issue. (I think he's trying to say that the N word is fine among themselves, but no one else has the right... )

I'm not arguing that fact from my perspective,  I'm just pointing out what was said.  A couple other students agree.  We are still having the discussion now.  This has actually turned into an interesting last day of school

 

 

 

For me personally, the origin doesn't really matter.  Its now.  If NA's refer to themselves as redskins (which, in my experience, which again isn't a lot, but its more than some), the do not refer to themselves as redskins, they call themselves indians.

BTW, I never brought up the N word, they made that connection on their own.

 

That makes even less sense to me. You call yourself a name that was a mistake a white man made, over a name your own ancestors gave you to describe their differences from the same white men. 

[codeorama]

That makes even less sense to me. You call yourself a name that was a mistake a white man made, over a name your own ancestors gave you to describe their differences from the same white men.

Just to be clear, I'm only referring to the Blackfeet in Montana. In the bar where I worked, they referred to themselves as Indians, which I thought was odd.

[RedskinsFan44]

If the public were made more aware of this history, I think you'd see a bit more backlash. I think the issue lies in the uncertainty of a white American's true heritage. White America doesn't know who to fight for because they identify themselves at white Americans. Has White America ever been oppressed other than by way of summer heat waves?

Poor white labor most certainly has.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Blair_Mountain

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paint_Creek%E2%80%93Cabin_Creek_strike_of_1912

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

So....has this become a "My ancestors were more oppressed than yours" debate?

 

My ancestors were all criminals in souther Italy. I'll just take a seat to the side if that's okay.

[ZRagone]

From my own experience it's not that uncommon for Native Americans to refer to themselves as Indians. This was nailed home for me when I attend NNALEA a few years back. I was kind of surprised by all the talk of "Indian Country" and other such uses, in large part for all my life I had white people telling me over and over again that it's amazingly offensive and wrong to ever use that word to reference native americans. Then again, a great many of them commented on my Redskins hat in a positive fashion as fans of the team, so who knows.

As a note, I don't use these things as a basis for claiming what native americans as a whole think or feel or what my stance on this should be because I don't put greater value on anecdotal evidence simply because it happened to me personally. But it was enlightening to see what you're told is the case in a definitive way when younger ends up not being so definitive.

[Gamebreaker]

Just to be clear, I'm only referring to the Blackfeet in Montana. In the bar where I worked, they referred to themselves as Indians, which I thought was odd.

 

I understand, just an observation I've had for a while. I believe I've heard Halbriter from Onedia Nation refer to himself as an Indian multiple times. I recall first hearing about this debate back when I was in grade school, the NAs who were protesting didn't want to be called Indians either, and found it disrespectful. 

 

Just goes to show how much division there is among the thousands of separate NA tribes. I would very much like an independent, trusted organization to do the legwork, go to all of the tribes and poll them directly. It may take a while, but it would be more beneficial than listening to unsubstantiated BS from the name change camp and watching the defense poorly mismanaged by Snyder & co. 

[codeorama]

Gamebreaker, great post. Couldn't agree more.

[codeorama]

Aww, how kind of you to indoctrinate your capitve audience of children to your political views in a one sided fashion.

You're pointing out that taking a bunch of individuals with likely very little information, to either side, on this issue and giving them ONE persons ANECDOTAL experience and nothing else...that they'll just go off what that one person says, especially if that person is an authority figure.

-edit-

Reading on, at least you finally did actually try to present an objective view of both sides, though from reading you on this thread I have no doubt what so ever it was clear to those listening what you felt was valid and worth while and what wasn't. And attempting to give more information after an initial point where you clearly made your position and point felt on what's write or wrong with your anecdotal story is unlikely to really change the initial impact on children getting told such from a teacher.

My point was to show that polls can be bogus because of the slant and or lack of information. I also shared this with the kids. I explained how experiences shape your views. They trust me, my experience changed their opinion. I was truthful. They asked me if I thought the name should change. I said probably but I know there's no way the team was named after something derogatory purposefully. My overall take was that most of the kids really didn't care. They were interested because they have heard the debate, but none of them know any NA's and don't know much about them.

[elkabong82]

 

 

It is for this reason I feel the name should be changed. For Snyder to dig his heels in, while my ego/fandom suffers as a result is not fair to me, and it is not fair to all the other supporters of the team. I, we, shouldn't have to feel uncomfortable about adorning our team's name/colors. I shouldn't have to fend off friends who feel it appropriate to caution me about putting my son in 'skins gear.

 

I know there are those of you who disagree, and that's fine. I'll never walk away from this team. I can't envision not ever being a fan. My son will grow up being a fan of this team (come hell or high water!!!). Maybe I've constructed this feeling of embarrassment in my own mind, but the truth is, I am VERY conscious of publically showing my fandom to this team, and that wasn't the case 2 years ago (It has nothing to do with the 3-13 season).

 

As I said at the top, I'm not a frequent poster, but rather a long-time lurker. I come to this board multiple times daily to get my fix. Keep doing what you all are doing. We'll make it through together!

 

Were any of your friends Native American? If not then their opinion, frankly, shouldn't matter as to whether or not it is offensive. Just tell them that and that the only reliable polling shows 90% of NAs aren't offended. Point out Red Mesa HS, majority Native American, that uses the Redskins name and logo. 

 

The majority of the country is on our side, so you shouldn't let a few loud ones who are acting offended FOR another race, based off assumptions and ignorant of facts, ruin your enjoyment of the team. Seriously, look at all the facts on our side. Yet you're allowing loudmouths with no evidence other than an out-of-context, dated version of the word to guilt you into submission? Tell them they're wrong. Cite the evidence in here and that I've made in this post. Be proud of your team. Don't cave in to loudmouths that don't have support of most of the country nor even most of the people they are acting offended for.

 

I wonder if you asked your friends if they would say this stuff to a Native American that is a fan of the team and wearing a jersey, what their response would be.

 

Again, the MAJORITY of the country is on our side. What kind of fans would we be if we allowed an uneducated, loud minority of people to change our pride in this team simply because they are loud? We wouldn't be very good ones and we wouldn't ever want that kind of quit in our team, so we shouldn't have that kind of quit in us. Rock that gear proudly. HTTR!

[Fan since a Fetus]

There are many places on the internet that suggest this if you do a little research.

-Also TK made a post back on page 112.  Post #4464.  His post also explains how the paint was used to repeal bugs.

I get the paint, but your assertion that is the basis of the name cannot be backed up. Simple. I read TKs article the other day, and there is still no evidence that the team's name was based upon paint. I am not arguing that the American Indians didn't use paint.

Also, you are the one stating that the name was based off of paint, so you do the research and prove it. I don't have time or desire to research everything I disagree with.

I will concede if you are in fact correct, if you provide proof, not internet hearsay. In my opinion, an intelligent person will change their minds when new factual and logical information is presented. So, I am open to changing my mind. I have no desire to stick to my guns on this matter.

You can write the longest post in history based around paint and I won't care if you don't back up your initial assertion that the name was based on paint.

[elkabong82]

My point was to show that polls can be bogus because of the slant and or lack of information. I also shared this with the kids. I explained how experiences shape your views. They trust me, my experience changed their opinion. I was truthful. They asked me if I thought the name should change. I said probably but I know there's no way the team was named after something derogatory purposefully. My overall take was that most of the kids really didn't care. They were interested because they have heard the debate, but none of them know any NA's and don't know much about them.

 

The Annenberg Poll didn't have a slant nor lack of information. The only knock against it is that it relied on people self-identifying as NA. However, if you understand how random calling across the US works with the mathematics/probability in polling, then you understand just how ridiculously small the odds are of randomly calling across the US and getting enough people to falsely identify as NA and then also say they are not offended by the name, to where they out number real NAs who are offended, significantly enough to make the results 90% and diminish the offended to 10%. The number of NAs polled vs. entire people polled was a % close to the % total of NAs vs. rest of US. It's a valid polling method done by an esteemed company. The only ones who can't accept that are the ones who can suspend their beliefs that run counter to its results. That doesn't invalidate the results.

 

I'll ask you again, as I have in past responses, do you realize that your anecdotal evidence is not the norm?

[Fan since a Fetus]

That makes even less sense to me. You call yourself a name that was a mistake a white man made, over a name your own ancestors gave you to describe their differences from the same white men. 

Russel Means words, not my own: Also he passed in 2012 I believe.

I abhor the term Native American. It is a generic government term used to describe all the indigenous prisoners of the United States. These are the American Samoans, the Micronesians, the Aleuts, the original Hawaiians, and the erroneously termed Eskimos, who are actually Upiks and Inupiats. And, of course, the American Indian.

I prefer the term American Indian because I know its origins . . . As an added distinction the American Indian is the only ethnic group in the United States with the American before our ethnicity . . . We were enslaved as American Indians, we were colonized as American Indians, and we will gain our freedom as American Indians, and then we will call ourselves any damn thing we choose.

"I am an American Indian, Not a Native American!"

statement by Russell Means