The Official ES All Things Redskins Name Change Thread (Reboot Edition---Read New OP)

[Destino]

That pesky Dave McKenna strikes again. The team needs to sue him for printing so many lies.

Is he lying? I'd love for that to be the case.

[mrcunning15]

After all, no true Native American would not be offended by it.

 

It was like after 9/11 if you do not agree with the USA/GOP then you're with the terrorists mentality.

 

Being only part Native American, I wonder the same thing. It seems they believe that only 100% NA count. How would that work for other races? Should you only be considered black if both of your parents were 100% pure? 

 

That was only a comparison, I mean no offense to any racial group. But hey, this is the internet. Let the race wars begin.

 

It kind of reminds me of a simpson's episode Homer's in florida on spring break and meets a seminole or a mohican sp? i forgot the setup for the joke but the punchline has the seminole saying "Chicks dig it if you can say you're the last of your kind" I think it just comes down to the fact that are very few 100% N/A left. 

[Salistala]

 

Serious question for you.

 

If hypothetically a regional Mid-Atlantic NA tribe officially endorsed the team, and that tribe was incorporated into the official team name, would that change anything for you? To make that clear, if the Patawomeck / Potomac tribe endorsed the Washington team, and they became the Washington Potomac Redskins, would that make the use of Redskins tolerable in your mind? 

 

A serious answer to a serious question. If the Patawomeck endorsed a name linked to their history that everyone (Washington fans, Patawomeck/Powhatan, and to a lesser degree the other Native Americans) agreed was honorable and represented the area respectfully, I would necessarily have to change my stance. After all, the Washington team is in their territory and it would be highly presumptuous of me to oppose their position.

 

This is not the same as opposing ***skins, which I've already stated can and is used as a denigrating slur for Native Americans across the continent. Thanks for the "benefit" of the doubt of my experience, btw. If the origin of the word is on the east coast, what does that have to do with me or any other NA that resists the term? I have as much in common with east coast Native Americans as I do with Chilean indigenous people. I shouldn't be lumped in with a term of their self-identification.

 

If you were to move toward a Patawomeck name, don't forget a Patawomeck image. The logo as it stands now, while not an offensive caricature, does not accurately represent the NAs from the DC area. Just because a Blackfoot designed the logo doesn't mean you can use a cookie cutter approach to represent all Natives. Like I referred to earlier, Wetzel was highly presumptuous to demand his image represent a Native image in the DC area.

[Zguy28]

A serious answer to a serious question. If the Patawomeck endorsed a name linked to their history that everyone (Washington fans, Patawomeck/Powhatan, and to a lesser degree the other Native Americans) agreed was honorable and represented the area respectfully, I would necessarily have to change my stance. After all, the Washington team is in their territory and it would be highly presumptuous of me to oppose their position.

 

This is not the same as opposing ***skins, which I've already stated can and is used as a denigrating slur for Native Americans across the continent. Thanks for the "benefit" of the doubt of my experience, btw. If the origin of the word is on the east coast, what does that have to do with me or any other NA that resists the term? I have as much in common with east coast Native Americans as I do with Chilean indigenous people. I shouldn't be lumped in with a term of their self-identification.

 

If you were to move toward a Patawomeck name, don't forget a Patawomeck image. The logo as it stands now, while not an offensive caricature, does not accurately represent the NAs from the DC area. Just because a Blackfoot designed the logo doesn't mean you can use a cookie cutter approach to represent all Natives. Like I referred to earlier, Wetzel was highly presumptuous to demand his image represent a Native image in the DC area.

Isn't that like saying if the Philly Eagles moved out west, the Eagle logo or mascot would have to change from a Bald Eagle to a Golden Eagle so as not to be presumptuous?

[Salistala]

Isn't that like saying if the Philly Eagles moved out west, the Eagle logo or mascot would have to change from a Bald Eagle to a Golden Eagle so as not to be presumptuous?

In British Columbia Canada, where I live, there are 203 separate First Nations. Many with separate languages and customs. There are 3 bordered to us. I would put myself in serious jeopardy if I presumed to tell them anything to do with their business. It's called protocol, an agreement to administer our territories the way we see fit without outside interference.

 

This is a First Nation way in BC, I'm not familiar with Native American governance but the principles would probably be pretty similar.

 

I don't think any separate species of eagles have this agreement, but I could check with them and let you know.

[grego]

A serious answer to a serious question. If the Patawomeck endorsed a name linked to their history that everyone (Washington fans, Patawomeck/Powhatan, and to a lesser degree the other Native Americans) agreed was honorable and represented the area respectfully, I would necessarily have to change my stance. After all, the Washington team is in their territory and it would be highly presumptuous of me to oppose their position.

 

This is not the same as opposing ***skins,

 

 

salistala, both the former and current leader of the patawomeck tribe of VA have already spoken out in support of the name 'redskins' and said snyder should rename the team after them. 

 

are you saying you would have a problem with the name if the team were then called the patawomeck redskins, with the blessing and support of the tribe?

 

http://spectator.org/articles/59851/patawomeck-tribe-snyder-could-rename-redskins-after-us

[RFKFedEx]

Is he lying? I'd love for that to be the case.

 

Probably not. But the owner is still spinning the Lone Star Deitz story, which likely is a lye. 

[Salistala]

salistala, both the former and current leader of the patawomeck tribe of VA have already spoken out in support of the name 'redskins' and said snyder should rename the team after them. 

 

I'm aware of Chief Emeritus Green's position, didn't know Chief Lightner agreed.

 

As I said above I still have a huge problem with ***skin. I don't mean to offend all the fans, I really don't, but my position will never change. If the Patawomeck agree, and there's no internal dispute, then who am I to disagree with their support. Sometimes protocol puts you in an untenable position, but it's better than anarchy.

[GhostofSparta]

Loan Star Deitz 

Typo, or racism? I'll let the group decide.

[RFKFedEx]

Typo, or racism? I'll let the group decide.

 

I think I read somewhere that he was also an awesome banker before football. 

[grego]

I'm aware of Chief Emeritus Green's position, didn't know Chief Lightner agreed.

 

As I said above I still have a huge problem with ***skin. I don't mean to offend all the fans, I really don't, but my position will never change. If the Patawomeck agree, and there's no internal dispute, then who am I to disagree with their support. Sometimes protocol puts you in an untenable position, but it's better than anarchy.

 

 

i gotcha. and thanks for your response, btw. your input here is valued, even if we dont agree on everything.

 

because of your experience, is it possible for you to see the word in any other context? as in, a benign, antiquated term for a native american? or even as simply 'the name of a football team'? 

 

or do you hear the word and automatically think 'slur'? 

[nonniey]

.

 

 

This is not the same as opposing ***skins, which I've already stated can and is used as a denigrating slur for Native Americans across the continent.

 

Glad you said you "stated" this as opposed to using the term shown.  Which at least makes this statement of yours accurate.

 

[Destino]

Why do N/A's always seem to call out the authenticity of other N/A's especially the ones that don't agree with their stances it's a stupid ad-hominem argument that bears little weight only if the claim of N/A is rather erroneous do I even really care.

I don't think there is anything wrong with verifying the story of someone claiming to be NA and inserting themselves into a national debate claiming to represent an NA viewpoint. If they turn our to be frauds it does matter. I certainly wouldn't want someone speaking on behalf of Hispanics in a heated national debate that wasn't. It would matter to me.

[Salistala]

i gotcha. and thanks for your response, btw. your input here is valued, even if we dont agree on everything.

 

because of your experience, is it possible for you to see the word in any other context? as in, a benign, antiquated term for a native american? or even as simply 'the name of a football team'? 

 

or do you hear the word and automatically think 'slur'? 

Before '93 the word was troublesome, not benign, because I would be accurately described as sensitive to racial discrimination. After that incident however, I linked it to all the malicious racism I see in the world. And I want to make myself clear, I challenge racism or bigotry whether it's directed at First Nations people, or Croatians, or Ukrainians, or Senegalese, etc. It is not acceptable to denigrate a person based purely on their country of origin. If they're dicks, it's because individually that person is a dick; if they're lazy the same. Don't insult an entire population based on the deficiencies of an individual.

 

Respectful debate is how we learn to coexist. My entire life has been challenging the worldview of the majority that the minority is in some way inferior.

 

.

Glad you said you "stated" this as opposed to using the term shown.  Which at least makes this statement of yours accurate.

 

 

You know what I mean. No need to be obtuse.

[VinnyIsThatYou?]

A serious answer to a serious question. If the Patawomeck endorsed a name linked to their history that everyone (Washington fans, Patawomeck/Powhatan, and to a lesser degree the other Native Americans) agreed was honorable and represented the area respectfully, I would necessarily have to change my stance. After all, the Washington team is in their territory and it would be highly presumptuous of me to oppose their position.

 

This is not the same as opposing ***skins, which I've already stated can and is used as a denigrating slur for Native Americans across the continent. Thanks for the "benefit" of the doubt of my experience, btw. If the origin of the word is on the east coast, what does that have to do with me or any other NA that resists the term? I have as much in common with east coast Native Americans as I do with Chilean indigenous people. I shouldn't be lumped in with a term of their self-identification.

 

If you were to move toward a Patawomeck name, don't forget a Patawomeck image. The logo as it stands now, while not an offensive caricature, does not accurately represent the NAs from the DC area. Just because a Blackfoot designed the logo doesn't mean you can use a cookie cutter approach to represent all Natives. Like I referred to earlier, Wetzel was highly presumptuous to demand his image represent a Native image in the DC area.

 

Thank you for the thoughtful response. It's a credit to you for keeping your posts here civil and substantive, especially since many people here are taking the other side of the debate, and the crux of the debate is something deeply important to you.

[grego]

Before '93 the word was troublesome, not benign, because I would be accurately described as sensitive to racial discrimination. After that incident however, I linked it to all the malicious racism I see in the world. And I want to make myself clear, I challenge racism or bigotry whether it's directed at First Nations people, or Croatians, or Ukrainians, or Senegalese, etc. It is not acceptable to denigrate a person based purely on their country of origin. If they're dicks, it's because individually that person is a dick; if they're lazy the same. Don't insult an entire population based on the deficiencies of an individual.

 

 

 

i agree with this. believe it or not, i'm very 'race sensitive', you could say. my family is made up of different ethnicities, my friends are a diverse bunch, my church couldnt be more diverse. i hate seeing bigotry. its one thing that i have an extremely low tolerance for. 

 

why do you say the word, pre-'93, was troublesome? i guess i'm asking because most people who grew up in this area, and, i would guess, in many parts of the country, we hear the word 'redskin' only in reference to the football team and have never heard it used in another way.   

[Larry]

I'm aware of Chief Emeritus Green's position, didn't know Chief Lightner agreed.

 

As I said above I still have a huge problem with ***skin. I don't mean to offend all the fans, I really don't, but my position will never change. If the Patawomeck agree, and there's no internal dispute, then who am I to disagree with their support. Sometimes protocol puts you in an untenable position, but it's better than anarchy.

 

(My bolding, in the quote)

 

So, if the tribe unanimously supports the name, then you would not disagree with their support? 

 

How gracious of you. 

 

----------

 

Just out of curiosity, how would you feel if people who at least don't object to the name was, say 90%? 

[mrcunning15]

I don't think there is anything wrong with verifying the story of someone claiming to be NA and inserting themselves into a national debate claiming to represent an NA viewpoint. If they turn our to be frauds it does matter. I certainly wouldn't want someone speaking on behalf of Hispanics in a heated national debate that wasn't. It would matter to me.

 

Oh yes of course you have to vet and corroborate peoples claims I totally agree with that, it just seems like some of these claims are rather petty and it's one side saying the other is not NA enough I think the worst claim to NA heritage is Elizabeth Warren's claim the Dodson guy on the redskins show on the other hand was just some guy wanting publicly rather harmless if you ask me. 

[BleedBNG]

If you were to move toward a Patawomeck name, don't forget a Patawomeck image. The logo as it stands now, while not an offensive caricature, does not accurately represent the NAs from the DC area. Just because a Blackfoot designed the logo doesn't mean you can use a cookie cutter approach to represent all Natives.

This year the tribe worked with Stafford High School to make the school's "Indian" mascot more representative of Virginia Indians.

 

http://stafford.high.schoolfusion.us/

 

I say use that image in the circle shield, change the name to Potomac Redskins... and be DONE with it.

[Salistala]

This year the tribe worked with Stafford High School to make the school's "Indian" mascot more representative of Virginia Indians.

 

http://stafford.high.schoolfusion.us/

 

I say use that image in the circle shield, change the name to Potomac Redskins... and be DONE with it.

Washington Weroances would be my suggestion.

[Salistala]

(My bolding, in the quote)

 

So, if the tribe unanimously supports the name, then you would not disagree with their support? 

 

How gracious of you. 

 

----------

 

Just out of curiosity, how would you feel if people who at least don't object to the name was, say 90%? 

If there was 10-20% visceral opposition don't you think it would merit a little caution? I think I've made my position clear, and any further discussion should be with the Native American people of the area. I'm as close to as far away from DC in North America as you could get geographically and my opinion has as much weight as a Seahawk fan.

 

I'm available for discussion of a First Nation perspective of racism, governance, colonization or whether the BnG have any chance in the NFC.

 

One last point, for a man who made his fortune in marketing, Snyder sure has made a colossal screw up of this mess. Why is he in Montana lobbying for support of the name? Send some people down to FSU for pointers on how to secure NA support. The Patawomeck already have near unanimous support, why the heck did he not go to them first? Would have been cheaper, I believe, and wouldn't look so desperate and disingenuous to the rest of us.

[TheGoodBits]

Salistala- curious to know your perspective on the origins of the word and the seemingly evolving definition... 

 

My personal opinion is simply that people stopped using the word, and the few instances when it was used it was in a racial/racist context by people who (perhaps incorrectly) assumed that it was the Native American equivalent of the n-word. No proof of that, but perhaps could help offer an explanation as to why more modern usage seems to be exclusively either the football team or in a racist context. 

 

By the way, I appreciate you joining the discussion here. 

[Salistala]

why do you say the word, pre-'93, was troublesome? i guess i'm asking because most people who grew up in this area, and, i would guess, in many parts of the country, we hear the word 'redskin' only in reference to the football team and have never heard it used in another way.   

 

I have been acutely aware of race relations, and specifically Indian/Indigenous/Native/Aboriginal/First Nation (all the various terms of identifying me since I was born) relations since the late 70's. The First Nation/Native American world is a small one and when we are collectively challenging our forced colonization we hear accounts from across the continent of issues that applies to us all. It is through that lens that I had heard of the use of the word. Like many of you, but maybe more open to believing accounts of bigotry and racism, it didn't carry the same weight as experiencing it firsthand. Read Codearama's account of how he felt as a non-NA hearing something you hoped was just an urban myth being made real right in front of you.

[Salistala]

Salistala- curious to know your perspective on the origins of the word and the seemingly evolving definition... 

 

My personal opinion is simply that people stopped using the word, and the few instances when it was used it was in a racial/racist context by people who (perhaps incorrectly) assumed that it was the Native American equivalent of the n-word. No proof of that, but perhaps could help offer an explanation as to why more modern usage seems to be exclusively either the football team or in a racist context. 

 

By the way, I appreciate you joining the discussion here. 

 

Honestly, I don't think that's true if you consider the Red Mesa example, or any other NA use of the term. Maybe it's for internal use, like the n-word, and I've read a quote from either the principal or the superintendent of Red Mesa suggesting it would be wise to leave the term for their internal use. 

 

Word use constantly evolves, in the case of ***skin because of the changing relationship between the colonists/US Gov't and the Native Americans from the mid 1600's to now. The relationship went from envoys to trade partners to opponents to barriers of expansion to nuisance to afterthought to history to "what? they're still here?". Simplistic, but it would take a bit of time to accurately portray the change without using a simple progression.

 

And that changing definition is reflected in dictionary definitions. I've read here and elsewhere that the editors of dictionaries should keep their two cents out of the discussion. As if these editors have an ideological opposition to Conservative values. Dictionary editors would review the popular media amd merely reflect the usage as expressed; be it newspapers, television, Internet, or otherwise. In the mid 1800's to the early 1900's, the word was used in print media as a negative slur more often than not.

 

As for it's racist context, bigots attempt to assert their superiority over their targets in any way possible in an effort to separate us from what they covet. If they still could they would round us up, shoot us and bulldoze the lot into a shallow grave. But time has caught up, and in the Youtube age you have to express your intolerance in more sophisticated ways. And even that window is getting smaller every day.

[thebluefood]

A different name change:

 

(Reuters) - The Seattle City Council unanimously voted on Monday to redesignate the federal Columbus Day holiday as Indigenous Peoples' Day to reflect that Native Americans were living on the continent before Christopher Columbus' 15th Century arrival.

 

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/10/06/us-usa-washington-columbus-idUSKCN0HV27E20141006

Apparently Italian-Americans are irate.  I remember an episode of the Sopranos that touched on the subject, it was pretty good.

 

I'm okay with this. Columbus, by most accounts, was a fraud and an unmerciful son of a ****. Pretty hilarious we still celebrate Columbus Day.