SOW| Native Americans Speaking Out In Support of Redskins Name

[Bang]

Who was this guy? Me wants more nuggetts

I don't know who he or they were, it was your story.

They protested our name outside of the Super bowl in which we beat the Buffalo Bills.

Why didn't they protest the Bills?

Do you think anyone would be happy if they found a team named for the general who decided to give natives cholera soaked blankets?

He and Bill Cody aren't much different when it comes to the destruction of the native way of life.

In fact, Bill and his hunts killed so many buffalo that he set off mass starvations and forced native tribes to leave their ancient lands to search for food.

the fact that they could not maintain their way of life forced many of them into treaties that destroyed them, their homes, and herded them into reservations.

Way to go, Buffalo Bill.

and afterwards, Buffalo Bill went and grabbed up Sitting Bull and other formerly proud men and paraded the funny little savages in front of anyone who'd pay to see his trumped up Wild West Show, and then trundled them off to Europe so they could be ogled like they were in a circus.

But hey,, the "Redskins" is offensive, so we'll focus on that, because it's easier to rile up people who don't think than to try to convince people why Buffalo Bill was bad for Native American culture. It's an easier fight. After all, the US Government gave Bill a medal of honor for all his great work in "taming the west" (ie: invading and destroying native cultures). AND, after it was taken away from him, they re-instated it in 1989.. so our government officially recognizes him as a hero for his major participation in the awful plight the Indians face, and we're supposed to be so sensitive about.

it doesn't take much brains to realize that one is a name with an argument for each side of the issue, and the other is a slap in the face of every native in America.

Outrage without thought.

Think. What is truly offensive is pretty obvious.

and the fact that these Native 'leaders' don't seem to even notice tells me all that I need to know about their cause.

~Bang

[HighOnHendrix]

My hope is that the team will engage in actual dialogue with Native American groups opposed to the name instead of simply stonewalling them, which I believe only adds to the problem.

I agree with this, though probably for different reasons than you.

It doesn't seem like anybody has a problem with the Vikings theme. I wish we had that luxury.

Yet.

[BleedBNG]

UnWise Mike looks at the big caricature on our helmets and that offends him. Really Mike? Does the caricature on the Pats helmet do the same? One of the anti's on the show said that non NA's wearing Native American garb is offensive. Should I go ahead and set up a panel at a reservation and say that Native Americans wearing cowboy hats and boots offends me? And what about the one who said the name will change by 2018? Wow, he even set a date. Is that when Snyder sells the team?

[ejay183]

UnWise Mike looks at the big caricature on our helmets and that offends him. Really Mike? Does the caricature on the Pats helmet do the same? One of the anti's on the show said that non NA's wearing Native American garb is offensive. Should I go ahead and set up a panel at a reservation and say that Native Americans wearing cowboy hats and boots offends me? And what about the one who said the name will change by 2018? Wow, he even set a date. Is that when Snyder sells the team?

Hopefully that is the day he retires so I dont have to hear from him again.

[TSO]

....

Why didn't they protest the Bills?

Do you think anyone would be happy if they found a team named for the general who decided to give natives cholera soaked blankets?

He and Bill Cody aren't much different when it comes to the destruction of the native way of life.

In fact, Bill and his hunts killed so many buffalo that he set off mass starvations and forced native tribes to leave their ancient lands to search for food.

the fact that they could not maintain their way of life forced many of them into treaties that destroyed them, their homes, and herded them into reservations.

Way to go, Buffalo Bill.

and afterwards, Buffalo Bill went and grabbed up Sitting Bull and other formerly proud men and paraded the funny little savages in front of anyone who'd pay to see his trumped up Wild West Show, and then trundled them off to Europe so they could be ogled like they were in a circus.

........

Outrage without thought.

Think. What is truly offensive is pretty obvious.

and the fact that these Native 'leaders' don't seem to even notice tells me all that I need to know about their cause.

~Bang

Wow, very interesting stuff, thanks Bang.

[Bang]

UnWise Mike looks at the big caricature on our helmets and that offends him. Really Mike? Does the caricature on the Pats helmet do the same? One of the anti's on the show said that non NA's wearing Native American garb is offensive. Should I go ahead and set up a panel at a reservation and say that Native Americans wearing cowboy hats and boots offends me? And what about the one who said the name will change by 2018? Wow, he even set a date. Is that when Snyder sells the team?

It's not a caricature.

A caricature is a comic representation, typically with exaggerated features, like this

Ours is nothing like a caricature. Big difference

~Bang

[2cents]

Not to mention ours was encouraged by Native Americans....

[Bang]

Ours is rather proud. To me he depicts strength, resolve and wisdom.

I like him, and even though I'm in no position to say, if it were me who's ethnicity was being depicted, I'd have no problem with him. Nothing about him is exaggerated or unrealistic.

~Bang

[pjfootballer]

Also, the whole Brown Indian/White Indian dynamic was pretty interesting. I didn't know that Native Americans self-classified like that.

In parts of South America, it's the same way. My wife was born in Peru, but she's a white hispanic. They have the brown Peruvians and white Peruvians.

[Tweedr01]

The "Indian" who posted on SOW bases his whole argument on the fact that "real" Indians don't care and that "white" Indians are the ones making the stink. He's entitled to his point of view, but he's speaking from a purely personal standpoint.

As to your second point, Packers and 49ers refer to professions or trades, and they aren't tied specifically to a single ethnic group. Nor do their mascots stereotype a still living, thriving culture.

Are you calling him a liar?

[Ludomaniac]

So in the end the decision is in Dan Snyders hands right? No one can force him to change the name correct?

[MassSkinsFan]

Again, I personally am a fan of the name and logo. But it's not my culture that is being used or stereotyped.

Part of my ancestry is Irish. Should I be lobbying for Notre Dame to change their name? The logo and name are undoubtedly racist. Also, should I be upset that the school district next to my hometown uses the nickname "Shamrocks" even though they are located on a Mohawk reservation? What right have they to appropriate imagery from my culture?

[Bang]

Part of my ancestry is Irish. Should I be lobbying for Notre Dame to change their name? The logo and name are undoubtedly racist. Also, should I be upset that the school district next to my hometown uses the nickname "Shamrocks" even though they are located on a Mohawk reservation? What right have they to appropriate imagery from my culture?

Well, to be fair, the irish have tried, but whenever they march, Notre Dame gives out free shots of Jamesons and soon everyone's fighting and no one remembers why they came.

:nana:

~Bong

[MassSkinsFan]

Well, to be fair, the irish have tried, but whenever they march, Notre Dame gives out free shots of Jamesons and soon everyone's fighting and no one remembers why they came.

:nana:

~Bong

Must be the UDA or UVF organizing those marches. We know if it were the IRA (or one of its vairants) there would be no one left in South Bend. They should give out Bushmill's - I'd be there in a heartbeat cheering on my new favorite collegiate team!!! hic

[BleedBNG]

It's not a caricature.

A caricature is a comic representation, typically with exaggerated features, like this

Ours is nothing like a caricature. Big difference

~Bang

Thanks! I thought caricature meant any kind of drawing of a person and not a photo. The only other words I could think of was mascot (physical... no) or emblem (non person... no).

And your right... ours is no different then the American Revolutionary patriot on the helmets of the Pats.

But somehow, I guess, THAT should offend US.

---------- Post added March-4th-2013 at 06:37 PM ----------

So in the end the decision is in Dan Snyders hands right? No one can force him to change the name correct?

I'm sure The 3 Stooges of the NFL (Goodell, Mara, and Lurie) could conjure up another Capgate if they wanted.

[Bang]

My pleasure, good sir!

~Bang

[rick7423]

Ours is rather proud. To me he depicts strength, resolve and wisdom.

I like him, and even though I'm in no position to say, if it were me who's ethnicity was being depicted, I'd have no problem with him. Nothing about him is exaggerated or unrealistic.

~Bang

Ours was designed by he Blackfoot tribe at the request of Walter Wetzel, the then president of the National Congress of Native Americans. The other looks like it was designed by Walt Disney.

[Sekhmet187]

You can disagree but Xero21's position that "Kevin" is worried about people feeling negatively towards Native Americans over these battles of logo's and name is at least partially true. I included these portions from the article in my earlier post:

The argument that there are bigger problems is unconvincing. There are very few things out there that are the "biggest problem" so if we followed that logic quite a few things would go entirely ignored. There is plenty of room in the world for all sorts of issues to be discussed.

No offense, but are you kidding me? You are totally ignoring all the facts that state high rates of poverty, suicide etc. on reservations, and don't think thats evidence there are bigger problems? Seriously? I'm sorry, but it really bothers me to hear someone claim that there isn't "evidence" that mascots and logos aren't bigger problems among Native Americans than high suicide rates, crime or poverty. You're coming off as if this issue is still important because theres plenty of room to debate all of the Native Americans other problems. but guess what?

Where are the articles? Where are the articles in the Washington Post or on yahoo about the plight of Native people? Oh thats right, they're not there. There are probably 5 times the number of stupid opinion pieces getting people talking about a word than there are articles of people pointing out how hard it is for people living on reservations in America.

Now maybe you weren't implying that this issue is just as big a deal as all the actual important stuff that effects people's lives on reservations, but it certainly came off that way. My whole point is that this is a silly subject that has gotten 10x the publicity that any article I've ever seen that tries to show the plight of people suffering on reservations.

[grego]

No offense, but are you kidding me? You are totally ignoring all the facts that state high rates of poverty, suicide etc. on reservations, and don't think thats evidence there are bigger problems? Seriously? I'm sorry, but it really bothers me to hear someone claim that there isn't "evidence" that mascots and logos aren't bigger problems among Native Americans than high suicide rates, crime or poverty. You're coming off as if this issue is still important because theres plenty of room to debate all of the Native Americans other problems. but guess what?

Where are the articles? Where are the articles in the Washington Post or on yahoo about the plight of Native people? Oh thats right, they're not there. There are probably 5 times the number of stupid opinion pieces getting people talking about a word than there are articles of people pointing out how hard it is for people living on reservations in America.

Now maybe you weren't implying that this issue is just as big a deal as all the actual important stuff that effects people's lives on reservations, but it certainly came off that way. My whole point is that this is a silly subject that has gotten 10x the publicity that any article I've ever seen that tries to show the plight of people suffering on reservations.

agree.

destino, youre a smart poster who always brings interesting points to a debate, but i disagree with you here, even if doing to paints me as a stubborn traditionalist borderline bigot, which i very much am not.

i understand your thinking, but i absolutely think there are many other issues that i almost NEVER hear about regarding native american that deserve attention far more than this.

i'd have a little more respect for media members who gave 5 minutes these issues rather than the debatable, sexier name issue.

[RFKFedEx]

Question for the people telling Harjo and other Native leaders to worry about the 'bigger issues' facing their people... have you ever done anything to improve the quality of life for Native Americans?

[skinsince72]

Question for the people telling Harjo and other Native leaders to worry about the 'bigger issues' facing their people... have you ever done anything to improve the quality of life for Native Americans?

That actually is a very good point. In this increasingly politically correct nation we live in, we voluntarily choose to avoid that discussion. IMO, as a nation, we should be doing a lot more in that arena. As a taxpayer, i'd like to know my tax contribution goes to NA's rather than third world countries whose inhabitants burn American flags.

[grego]

Question for the people telling Harjo and other Native leaders to worry about the 'bigger issues' facing their people... have you ever done anything to improve the quality of life for Native Americans?

not really. but i'm not sure its relevant to the argument.

[RFKFedEx]

That actually is a very good point. In this increasingly politically correct nation we live in, we voluntarily choose to avoid that discussion.

I'll be the first to admit that I've never lifted a finger for the Natives aside from keyboarding my opinions on this site. Given Harjo's Wiki resume, her efforts to remove Native imagery from sports teams seems like only a small factor in her mission to improve the quality of life for her peeps.

[CrabR]

I do not think any person thinks we use the Name Redskins in a derogatory way. I have always seen Redskins as noble and proud symbol. I think our use of the name has helped the Native American cause in the long run, as it has always been used as a positive name

I also can see the other sides argument. Imagine if our team was named the Blackskins or yellowskins, the name would have vanished decades ago.

[RFKFedEx]

I do not think any person thinks we use the Name Redskins in a derogatory way. I have always seen Redskins as noble and proud symbol.

As we all do.

To some Natives our use of their imagery is an act of theft. The feathers and arrows represent stolen objects of culture, which have been borrowed for decades without authorization. It has been only recently that mainstream American culture has begun to realize that Native imagery belongs to someone.