WE: After school shooting in Connecticut, Piers Morgan blasts America’s ‘gun madness’

[Elessar78]

I saw that, I'm not able to reply to any posts in this thread directly right now for some reason. I waited for you to fix it.

To add to what I just said in my prior post. Take a county with an annual budget of 315 million dollars. Let's say there are 75 public schools and you hire 3 retired officers per school at 25,000 fixed salary per year. (That's 3 for every high, middle, and elementary school in the county)

75 X 3 = 225

225 x 25,000 = 5,625,000

5.5 million dollars...with a budget of 315 million? Drop in a bucket.

1.74% of the budget isn't a lot but are "you" increasing taxes to make that up cost? Or are you cutting something? Cut Programs? Cut Teacher's salaries/retirement/benefits? Cut equipment? Physical Plant maintenance?

Also, it's important to point out that when you employ someone full time, then there are more costs than just their salary. The cost of having an employee is around 2X of salary. So that $5.5M figure is actually more like $11M/year.

[PeterMP]

Great post Jumbo.

For me, my idea is not simply to put active duty police in the schools, but make it a job for retired police officers.

Retired state troopers and county deputies may apply as "school security officers." Pay these retired officers a reasonable salary with no additional benefits, as most will already have benefits with their retirement packages. Let's say no more than 25 to 30 thousand dollars a year. This income will supplement their retirement, and enable them to provide a much needed service to society. Let's say each and every school has a minimum of three working at any given time. Their purpose is simply to provide security to outside threats. Not get involved in school administrative decisions when it comes to the eduation of the students, and not to interfere with the educational process at all. These officers will only work when school is in session. (Monday through Friday, and have weekends and holidays off)

I can speak from experience when I say many would jump at an opportunity like this. If your retirement is bringing in 70,000 a year, add 30,000 to that and you are doing quite well.

For me, this is a "common sense" action.

I'll ask again, other than this one case does anybody know of a single case where having an armed person in an elementary school would have saved a single life in the last 40 years?

The last 60 years?

Your going to pay $75,000 per a school per a year to protect kids from a once in a life time even.

AND simultaneously your going to increase the odds of somebody being shot by accident (3 more guns in every school every day is going to result in some sort of increase in the accident rate) AND the chances that somebody that becomes unhinged that previously either wouldn't have been at the school (one of your 3 cops) or wouldn't have had access to a gun (any of your other school employees that some how might be able to get access to one of your three cops guns) at the school now will.

Are you even sure over time, you are going to decrease the number of kids killed by guns in an elementary school/year?

[KDawg]

Penn Jilette had a great take on this when someone questioned him about video games on O&A. He equated the video game "issue" to the "Rock and Roll has got to go!" issue years and years ago.

He went on to say this:

"Yes, the shooter did play Call of Duty. You know why? Because EVERY MOTHER ****ER UNDER THIRTY PLAYS CALL OF DUTY! More people play Call of Duty than drink milk! Every single mother ****er you know who's under the age of 25 has played Call of Duty in the last three days... When you say, 'Mom, everyone is listening to the Beatles,' it's nothing compared to the amount of people that play Call of Duty.

It's like you're watching Shakespeare stuff and Shakespeare has underage teen suicides, do we want our children watching this? **** YOU! It's art!... It's a desperate attempt"

[Commander PK]

You also probably need to provide health care, benifits, equipment and yearly training.

Also who is running this program? Need a few administrators and managers.

Also, schools budgets are being slashed across the county.

Not if they are retired Police because retired Police will already have health benefits through their retirement benefits. Either the security could fall under the local police departments, or answer to the Board of Education. Logistical decisions would have to be made. School budgets are being slashed across the country, but everybody wants to "do something" about this right? To prevent these things from happening, right? Well, here is the price we pay.

Or are you cutting something? Cut Programs? Cut Teacher's salaries/retirement/benefits? Cut equipment? Physical Plant maintenance?

Also, it's important to point out that when you employ someone full time, then there are more costs than just their salary. The cost of having an employee is around 2X of salary. So that $5.5M figure is actually more like $11M/year.

Yes, something would have to go if you prioritize. Children's safety should be of the utmost importance, so you trim some fat off the budget somewhere it isn't really needed. Like maybe the kids don't need every single new technological gizmo to learn on. Chalk boards still work.

I'll ask again, other than this one case does anybody know of a single case where having an armed person in an elementary school would have saved a single life in the last 40 years?

The last 60 years?

Your going to pay $75,000 per a school per a year to protect kids from a once in a life time even.

AND simultaneously your going to increase the odds of somebody being shot by accident (3 more guns in every school every day is going to result in some sort of increase in the accident rate) AND the chances that somebody that becomes unhinged that previously either wouldn't have been at the school (one of your 3 cops) or wouldn't have had access to a gun (any of your other school employees that some how might be able to get access to one of your three cops guns) at the school now will.

Are you even sure over time, you are going to decrease the number of kids killed by guns in an elementary school/year?

Well, if you want to be proactive than these are the choices you have to make. I work for an agency that places cops in schools. I don't know of a single incident in my long career where anything like what you have described has happened. As to your question, are you even sure over time if you will decrease the number of kids killed by guns in an elementary school year....I'm much more confident this will work than banning new sales of assault rifles. Absolutely. In a country that already has 300 million plus guns, you need a practical, realistic, and attainable solution. I have presented one. Now, are people willing to pay that price to make it happen? How serious are we about protecting the kids?

[Duckus]

Not if they are retired Police because retired Police will already have health benefits through their retirement benefits. Either the security could fall under the local police departments, or answer to the Board of Education. Logistical decisions would have to be made. School budgets are being slashed across the country, but everybody wants to "do something" about this right? To prevent these things from happening, right? Well, here is the price we pay.

Honestly, I don't think you are understand the scale of a project like this nationally. It is enormous.

This would be BILLIONS per state per year. Texas cut education by $300 million just last year, where are we finding these billions per year to ADD to the budget??

It just doesn't exist and a mandate would probably bankrupt hundreds of local governments.

And yes, this is the "price we pay" for safety, because we can't bear to live in a world in which you can't buy a semi-automatic assault rifle, with extended magazine clips, without a background check or physiological evaluation. THAT price is just way too high!

[Commander PK]

Honestly, I don't think you are understand the scale of a project like this nationally. It is enormous.

This would be BILLIONS per state per year. Texas cut education by $300 million just last year, where are we finding these billions per year to ADD to the budget??

It just doesn't exist and a mandate would probably bankrupt hundreds of local governments.

And yes, this is the "price we pay" for safety, because we can't bear to live in a world in which you can't buy a semi-automatic assault rifle, with extended magazine clips, without a background check or physiological evaluation. THAT price is just way too high!

I think this could be done "on the cheap" if managed and administered properly. You get legitimate security (What better "security guard" than a retired police officer). No matter how you slice it, it's going to cost, and something else would have to go. You would probably have to raise taxes, BUT, it's a solution that is realistic and attainable. If you go back and read my most recent post, you will find I would concede banning new sales of certain types of weapons, and I am for extensive background and mental health checks.

I just don't think it would accomplish anything, but give politicians "evidence" that they tried to do "something" before the next one. There are 300 million guns in this country. (Honestly, that's a conservative estimate) Let that number sink in. Unless you would endorse DRASTIC search and seizure violations to get them back, probably costing many lives, there is no solution to be found there.

[Prosperity]

What about movie theaters?

[Duckus]

I think this could be done "on the cheap" if managed and administered properly. You get legitimate security (What better "security guard" than a retired police officer). No matter how you slice it, it's going to cost, and something else would have to go. You would probably have to raise taxes, BUT, it's a solution that is realistic and attainable. If you go back and read my most recent post, you will find I would concede banning new sales of certain types of weapons, and I am for extensive background and mental health checks.

I just don't think it would accomplish anything, but give politicians "evidence" that they tried to do "something" before the next one. There are 300 million guns in this country. (Honestly, that's a conservative estimate) Let that number sink in. Unless you would endorse DRASTIC search and seizure violations to get them back, probably costing many lives, there is no solution to be found there.

Let me just say, I don't think it is a necessarily bad idea. I think the idea of arming school teachers is insane, but trained police is fine. I just think we are vastly underestimating costs. When was the last time the government did something on the cheap? Take whatever you THINK it will cost and triple it, and we probably still would be low in the end.

My big problem is I think this is an unfair burden to put on already underfunded school districts. Now, if there is a way to pay for this without putting the burden on local governments, I would be more interested.

So, what about this:

1) Significant tax all new gun sales.

2) Mandatory yearly registration tax and inspection of all weapons.

If the money above paid for school security, I would be interested.

You combine new taxes + school security with new gun control and extensive background check technology and I think we have a deal.

[Commander PK]

1) Significant tax all new gun sales.

2) Mandatory yearly registration tax and inspection of all weapons.

If the money above paid for school security, I would be interested.

You combine new taxes + school security with new gun control and extensive background check technology and I think we have a deal.

You have to give to get, so maybe there is a solution to be found here. It's much more reasonable than banning guns to make us sleep better at night. I'm not sure the point of annual inspections, but if we were to put security in schools, perhaps additional taxes on sales is a concession.

[AsburySkinsFan]

$25,000? That is less than a mall cop with a flashlight here in Austin.

Rest well America...we are protecting your children!!!!

[ixcuincle]

[Commander PK]

Rest well America...we are protecting your children!!!!

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8497/8297676411_80ba69bb18.jpg

Well that's a great argument against the idea. Post a picture of dead mall security guard, or whatever he was.

[twa]

Duckus, don't most Austin area schools already have school cops?

I know AISD does

most also hire extras on a contract basis from the regular police/sheriffs dept ect

[Commander PK]

http://art.penny-arcade.com/photos/i-dXBjSvG/0/L/i-dXBjSvG-X3.jpg

Hey man, you want "common sense" gun laws?

I want "common sense" cultural and social change. All these those things and countless others play a part in what is happening with our country.

[alexey]

I want to protect the kids and all, but spending millions on guns in schools while cutting education and paying peanuts to teachers does not sound like a smart way to allocate resources.

[twa]

what teacher earns peanuts?

[FletchLives]

No room for redemption in your world eh?

You want to ignore 260,000 lives lost because you've already written all of them off as "needin' killin'". That's BS. You approach solutions like the GOP does, eliminate actual options from consideration BEFORE the discussion even begins.

Yet is ok to dismiss over 6,000,000 unarmed Jews rounded up and exterminated not so very long ago in Europe?

And for those that don't know or care about history, take a look at current assault and rape statistics in the very countries the gun controllers wish to emulate. At least Americans have a chance to defend themselves. If you choose to be one of the sheep relying on the rest of us for your safety, that's up to you. But don't hand over our rights because of your fears.

[PeterMP]

Well, if you want to be proactive than these are the choices you have to make. I work for an agency that places cops in schools. I don't know of a single incident in my long career where anything like what you have described has happened. As to your question, are you even sure over time if you will decrease the number of kids killed by guns in an elementary school year....I'm much more confident this will work than banning new sales of assault rifles. Absolutely. In a country that already has 300 million plus guns, you need a practical, realistic, and attainable solution. I have presented one. Now, are people willing to pay that price to make it happen? How serious are we about protecting the kids?

I'm curious what you put the death rate for kids in an elementary school dying in cases where they could be saved by a guard is over the next 30 years and how determined that.

Because I do a good bit of work with statistics and probabilities, and I don't know how I'd even start to put a number on that. Honestly, I'd be interested in what your method was.

On the other hand, I'll bet you that somebody associated with your work has insurance in case the events I described with respect to a guard happen. It might not be your employer, the school district, or the guard, but I'll bet if you start asking around somebody has insurance in case of an "accidental" injury/death caused by the guards gun.

Which means an insurance companies have sat down specifically and said what is the chance of this type of event happening, what is the cost to us likely to be, and how much do we need to charge to make money.

I'll bet nobody has insurance to specifically cover a crazy person walking into and shooting up an elementary school.

If you can't be honest about what you actually know there's no reason to even have this conversation.

---------- Post added December-23rd-2012 at 06:49 AM ----------

And for those that don't know or care about history, take a look at current assault and rape statistics in the very countries the gun controllers wish to emulate. At least Americans have a chance to defend themselves. If you choose to be one of the sheep relying on the rest of us for your safety, that's up to you. But don't hand over our rights because of your fears.

When I look at the rape stats, we're pretty high and above countries like England, France, Germany, Canada, and Japan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics#UN_Rape_Statistics

I asked before in this thread, if any rifle that is not a single action rifle that requires a physical act more than pulling the trigger (e.g.p pump or bolt action) between each shot is illegal and hand guns are limited holding 6 bullets at a time, does anybody know of a case of self-defense that is likely to have changed?

[Commander PK]

If you can't be honest about what you actually know there's no reason to even have this conversation.

Why is it necessary for me to have working knowledge of every single facet of something? You seem hell bent on discrediting the idea, probably because it's not in line with your thinking. Ok, I'm sure we'd probably have to have insurance, but I do know that pensions and health benefits costs would not have to be provided. These positions could be developed to be part time positions, which do not require these benefits. To be honest, statistics, and probablities are not my area of expertise no, but I tell you what. I'm willing to work with you, who obviously know much more about that facet than I do. I write the policy and procedures manual and the job description, and you deal with sorting out the financial side of things.

What makes more sense? Bringing all of our individual talents and skills to bear on a realistic and attainable goal, or chasing some fantasy where we wish all guns off to never never land.

[AsburySkinsFan]

Yet is ok to dismiss over 6,000,000 unarmed Jews rounded up and exterminated not so very long ago in Europe?

And it's official Godwin's Law strikes again.

We all get the myth you're selling...gun bans equal Nazi Germany.....except that they don't.

[Commander PK]

And it's official Godwin's Law strikes again.

We all get the myth you're selling...gun bans equal Nazi Germany.....except that they don't.

6,000,000 Jews WERE killed by the Nazis. These 6,000,000 Jews either did not own a gun to begin with, or were disarmed. This is historical fact, and perfect evidence of the "worst case scenario." AND In a conversation about gun control, human rights , and mass murder it is a very legitimate topic to bring up. People are kidding themselves if they don't believe anything like that could not be possible here.

Take a look at what happens to many cities and geographical areas after a large enough natural disaster hits. Chaos, large scale burglary and robbery, property destruction, ineffective law enforcement. Every man for himself.

[Burgold]

And it's official Godwin's Law strikes again.

We all get the myth you're selling...gun bans equal Nazi Germany.....except that they don't.

I say this with a slight spirit of cynicism...

On that good Friday before Christmas all through the nation,

people were thinking of good will and salvation,

Well, all except a mouse called the National Rifle Association.

While on this day, Jesus may want your swords tucked away,

and suggest that this would be a time to fish and to pray,

Some worship instead revolvers and the AK,

a gun in every classroom shouts the good ole NRA

And is this the Yule message that Christ would send out,

is the timing a little suspiscious to me there is no doubt,

for while some preach love others just shout.

Is the Christmas spirit one of peace arm and arm.

Or that of a militia warning harm without charm.

And what is that hung in the stocking?

Is that a rifle that Santa's been rocking.

If he comes to your chimney the NRA will be ****ing.

with a gun in the hand no door needs locking.

Warning this was stream of consciousness rhyming,

don't beat me up on the rhythm or timing,

but if you do hear the hour bell chiming...

or the sound of hooves on shingles clacking...

it's not reindeer, but boogeyman attacking...

Happy greetings from the NRA and a militia to all and your schools in lock down.

[Koolblue13]

That was just awesome Burg. Great work as usual.

[Commander PK]

Yeah, nice work Burg. Very witty. If we put that much effort into finding solutions to our problems, maybe we could actually...you know....accomplish something?

(and I say that with a smile on my face brother. )

[MartinC]

Yet is ok to dismiss over 6,000,000 unarmed Jews rounded up and exterminated not so very long ago in Europe? .

You have got to be kidding. Are you seriouly suggesting that firstly if individual Jews in Europe had been armed it would have stopped the Holocaust (you can look up the Warsaw Uprising to see what happened when Jews did arm themselves and resist) and then secondly drawing ANY comparison with Nazi Germany and modern USA.

This problem needs careful thought, long term planning and a willingness to seriously enage with the issues on all sides. Comments like the one above suggest this is some way away.