Unforgiven Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 Yeah, quite honestly I'm far more comfortable going with the "I don't know..." answer than actually trying to have some seriously deep discussion on the issues. Because when you keep pressing on with it you have to start making wild assumptions that humans are incapable of knowing. My original response with the simple idea of he created you because he loves you is all the further I can really take it without going off into wild assumptions. That's also why I prefaced it with the whole Judeo-Christian thing, because if you believe in God in some other form and don't adhere to the holy books that come with that then you're going off in a totally different route. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Califan007 The Constipated Posted August 10, 2012 Author Share Posted August 10, 2012 Yeah, quite honestly I'm far more comfortable going with the "I don't know..." answer than actually trying to have some seriously deep discussion on the issues. Because when you keep pressing on with it you have to start making wild assumptions that humans are incapable of knowing.My original response with the simple idea of he created you because he loves you is all the further I can really take it without going off into wild assumptions. That's also why I prefaced it with the whole Judeo-Christian thing, because if you believe in God in some other form and don't adhere to the holy books that come with that then you're going off in a totally different route. I took God as being the "Creator" moreso than adhering to any specific religion's portrait of HIm. What's wild is that I didn't come into my beliefs about God until I started seriously asking these questions...and then questioning the answers I came up with. Getting into philosophical discussions with many others... I had somebody once tell me that God doesn't exist because of all the ills we humans face (disease, violence, hunger, etc, etc...)...that if God does exist then He must be a terrible designer. He either designed us in a flawed fasion, or he created the world in which we reside in a flawed fashion. Just made more sense to pick option #3: that God doesn't exist. So I asked him this same question... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Excuses Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 You said we were an "irrelevant", unimportant "byproduct"...meaning, we exist not because God wanted us to exist...but because we're a residue of sorts that He didn't consider when creating everything else. You're in essense saying that God can create something that he never intended to create. God created matter along with physical laws that govern this matter. But is there intentionality behind what this matter ended up forming? You are right in saying that I think we are basically a byproduct of what the physical laws allowed matter to form into. I agreed with your framing of my point except three things: 1. we exist not because God wanted us to exist 2. He didn't consider when creating everything else 3. You're in essense saying that God can create something that he never intended to create What I'm saying is that there is nothing special about us and we are irrelevant in the grand scheme of the Universe. And I'm approaching this question not from a mainstream theological viewpoint. I'm thinking more of a Deistic God who set the Universe in motion and left it at that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DallasCowboyFan156 Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 That's an interesting point... Then again, if God is everything and everything stems from Him, then He is both "here" and "there"...which is by definition contradictory. So in order for God to exist, he may by default have to be contradictory. Which might go a long way towards answering the question lol ... I think this is moving in the right direction and it all depends on the definition of God. To create something at the very least requires the desire, impulse, or need to create that thing which in my view would be contradictory to a perfect God who would need or desire nothing. Any change in his mood or disposition admit to fallibility. This leaves us with three options: A. He doesn't exist and the Universe was created by natural means. B. He exists but is not perfect or C. He exists, is perfect, and occasionally does things completely contradictory to his own nature.I think A and B are more probable but C could be true if the God you believe in is deistic. The Christian God which cares about what you eat, who you sleep with, and a myriad of other things is a difficult fit for C because I think that if he were contradictory to his apathy such contradictions would be extremely rare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unforgiven Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 I took God as being the "Creator" moreso than adhering to any specific religion's portrait of HIm. What's wild is that I didn't come into my beliefs about God until I started seriously asking these questions...and then questioning the answers I came up with. Getting into philosophical discussions with many others... I had somebody once tell me that God doesn't exist because of all the ills we humans face (disease, violence, hunger, etc, etc...)...that if God does exist then He must be a terrible designer. He either designed us in a flawed fasion, or he created the world in which we reside in a flawed fashion. Just made more sense to pick option #3: that God doesn't exist. So I asked him this same question... Yeah, it gets more complicated if you simply step back from all ways humanity views "God." If you're simply working under the assumption God exists and created everything and stop there without taking into account any religious beliefs then it's pretty much impossible to know "why?" In my mind at that point you either have to be comfortable not knowing, assuming you believe he exists. I understand why people want to discuss it and that's fine but unless you have religious beliefs, then the generalized "creator" concept gives you no indication of an answer...or maybe it does but it's not apparent to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Califan007 The Constipated Posted August 10, 2012 Author Share Posted August 10, 2012 God created matter along with physical laws that govern this matter. But is there intentionality behind what this matter ended up forming? You are right in saying that I think we are basically a byproduct of what the physical laws allowed matter to form into.I agreed with your framing of my point except three things: 1. we exist not because God wanted us to exist 2. He didn't consider when creating everything else 3. You're in essense saying that God can create something that he never intended to create What I'm saying is that there is nothing special about us and we are irrelevant in the grand scheme of the Universe. And I'm approaching this question not from a mainstream theological viewpoint. I'm thinking more of a Deistic God who set the Universe in motion and left it at that. You're contradicting your conclusion a bit, though. We were created with a purpose, but are also irrelevant. Purposeful creation can not also be considered irrelevant unless the creation is flawed. And a creation can only be flawed if the Creator is flawed as well. It would be like me creating a car with a nose hair counter on the dashboard lol...yes, I purposefully created it, but it's an irrelevant creation and serves no purpose to the rest of my creation. Counting nose hairs plays no role whatsoever in automobile travel, but I put it in there anyway. However...if I am perfect in every imaginable way...and I STILL include a nose hair counter in the dashboard of the car I created lol...then the only logical conclusion that can be reached is that nose hair counting really does play an important role in vehicle driving...thus it's not an irrelevant, unimportant creation. It is, in fact, a necessity. ---------- Post added August-10th-2012 at 03:23 PM ---------- I think this is moving in the right direction and it all depends on the definition of God. To create something at the very least requires the desire, impulse, or need to create that thing which in my view would be contradictory to a perfect God who would need or desire nothing. So you're saying that "Perfect" = "No desires, needs, thoughts, anything". To me, "Perfect" means "absence of any unintended consequences". So if God is indeed perfect, then it means that there are no accidents to anything He does...that everything has an intended purpose and will behave and perform exactly as He desires. The existence of curiosity, for example, wouldn't be evidence that we humans are imperfect. In fact, the exact opposite could be said...that we were meant to be curious, and the expression of our curiosity is evidence that we are working precisely as designed....Why can't God be curious and perfect at the same time? This leaves us with three options: A. He doesn't exist and the Universe was created by natural means. B. He exists but is not perfect or C. He exists, is perfect, and occasionally does things completely contradictory to his own nature. Or D: He exists, is perfect, and everything we see as "flaws" are really purposeful by His design. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Excuses Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 We were created with a purpose, but are also irrelevant. Purposeful creation can not also be considered irrelevant unless the creation is flawed. I don't think "we" were created with a 'purpose'. If God exists, then we can consider that particles which form matter were created with purpose. A postulate of Quantum Physics is that matter behaves unpredictably. What happened after the creation of the Universe was not set in stone. While our building blocks were intentional, we are not the result of intentionality. Rather just something that came into existence by random chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Califan007 The Constipated Posted August 10, 2012 Author Share Posted August 10, 2012 Yeah, it gets more complicated if you simply step back from all ways humanity views "God."If you're simply working under the assumption God exists and created everything and stop there without taking into account any religious beliefs then it's pretty much impossible to know "why?" You can examine the "why" behind our existence without needing to use religious doctrine and beliefs. It's not a requirement. And if you're of the mindset that all religions have a common denominator among them concerning God and His/our existence, then it might actually be easier to find that common denominator if specific religious beliefs are kept out of the equation. (I'm not suggesting that, by the way...just offering another viewpoint to what you said.) In my mind at that point you either have to be comfortable not knowing, assuming you believe he exists.I understand why people want to discuss it and that's fine but unless you have religious beliefs, then the generalized "creator" concept gives you no indication of an answer...or maybe it does but it's not apparent to me. It definitely did with me, yes....I always felt connection with God to be at its very essence an individual experience. Religion can enhance that experience, but it's not a requirement. ---------- Post added August-10th-2012 at 03:44 PM ---------- I don't think "we" were created with a 'purpose'. That means God can create something that He never intended to create--and that is the definition of creating something which holds zero value or purpose...which means he's not perfect. Perfect = absence of any unintended results. If God exists, then we can consider that particles which form matter were created with purpose. A postulate of Quantum Physics is that matter behaves unpredictably. What happened after the creation of the Universe was not set in stone. While our building blocks were intentional, we are not the result of intentionality. Rather just something that came into existence by random chance. Ah, but here's where it can get tricky lol...if God does exist and if God is indeed perfect, then he created those particles with the purpose of them forming in the exact manner in which they did. God is supposed to "know" everything, past present and future. And he is supposed to be Perfect in every imaginable way. Which would mean God created every single particle precisely because he wanted them to react and form in the ways they ended up forming. A perfect Creator would never say "Hmm...humans...I didn't see THAT coming...I mean, I knew the particles could form in any number of ways but I never expected this!" lol...That doesn't fit the definition of a perfect creator. So if God is perfect, then every single thing He created performed exactly in the manner in which He wanted it to. Which means that every result was purposeful and desired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMS Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 I think he created the rest of you guys to make me feel smarter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Califan007 The Constipated Posted August 11, 2012 Author Share Posted August 11, 2012 I think he created the rest of you guys to make me feel smarter. Awww...God knew you were that insecure, huh? lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsburySkinsFan Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 Are you saying that God's creating us is the way He expressed his sovereignty? It is "a" way God expresses his sovereignty.. ---------- Post added August-10th-2012 at 09:58 PM ---------- I think he created the rest of you guys to make me feel smarter. Nah, but I'm certain that's why God allowed you to be delusional. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DallasCowboyFan156 Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 So you're saying that "Perfect" = "No desires, needs, thoughts, anything".To me, "Perfect" means "absence of any unintended consequences". So if God is indeed perfect, then it means that there are no accidents to anything He does...that everything has an intended purpose and will behave and perform exactly as He desires. The existence of curiosity, for example, wouldn't be evidence that we humans are imperfect. In fact, the exact opposite could be said...that we were meant to be curious, and the expression of our curiosity is evidence that we are working precisely as designed....Why can't God be curious and perfect at the same time? That's exactly what I'm saying. Desire and need arises out of imperfection, either emotional, psychological, or physical. Curiosity is a good example. Curiosity stems from imperfections in our knowledge and the desired result of it is discovery. If God's knowledge of the universe is perfect then there is nothing left for him to discover, no basis by which to have curiosity. Curiosity would become a contradiction to his own perfection, his own nature. The likely result of having perfect knowledge and being perfect in every other way is to be apathetic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riggo-toni Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 Why do people own pets? Outside of beasts of burden, hunting, or guard dogs, there's no practical value. We own them and take care of them because it's enjoyable, gratifying, and they love us for it. I'd imagine for God the creation of people would be along the same lines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kosher Ham Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 Same reason people start ant farms inside their homes...entertainment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Califan007 The Constipated Posted August 11, 2012 Author Share Posted August 11, 2012 That's exactly what I'm saying. Desire and need arises out of imperfection, either emotional, psychological, or physical. Curiosity is a good example. Curiosity stems from imperfections in our knowledge and the desired result of it is discovery. If God's knowledge of the universe is perfect then there is nothing left for him to discover, no basis by which to have curiosity. Curiosity would become a contradiction to his own perfection, his own nature. The likely result of having perfect knowledge and being perfect in every other way is to be apathetic. I'm still not sure you can say curiosity means imperfection, though. And as I mentioned in an earlier post, if God does exist, then his nature by definition must be contradictory...He knows all but is also curious. Put another way, you can't truly know something without knowing some real level of its opposite. If you've lived your entire life on an isolated island where it's 110 degrees every day, would you call it "hot"? And if you did, would you fully "know" what hot is without having experienced some real level of "cold"? Is the experience of something a requirement to fully and completely "know" it's opposite? ---------- Post added August-11th-2012 at 06:20 AM ---------- Why do people own pets? Outside of beasts of burden, hunting, or guard dogs, there's no practical value. We own them and take care of them because it's enjoyable, gratifying, and they love us for it. I'd imagine for God the creation of people would be along the same lines. For companionship. Are you saying God was lonely? lol...Besides, animals already existed, we didn't need to create them. Maybe using having children would be a better parallel? And we domesticated animals for all the pragmatic reasons...they didn't become pets until we saw an emotional reason later on. ---------- Post added August-11th-2012 at 06:21 AM ---------- Same reason people start ant farms inside their homes...entertainment. LoL...we didn't create ants, though ....(or the dirt or sand that they live in)... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexey Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 Assuming that God exists and that he created this Universe, I think the best explanation is curiosity. He was curious how this whole thing is going to turn out. How stars and planets will form, how life will appear and where, how evolution will take place, what kind of creatures will appear, how intelligence will arise, what these intelligent beings will do to each other, what kind of belief systems they will invent, and how quickly they will realize that the main thing is to simpy be nice to each other, get along, seek knowledge, live sustainably, and cause as little harm to other sentiment beings as possible. This does not work with an all-knowing God because an all-knowing God would know how everything will turn out without having to create stuff. A loving God doing this, from some perspectives, is also unlikely because of all the suffering involved in running the "experiment". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B.A.M.F. Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 I think free agency is being overlooked by many in this thread. He created us to be able to make our own choices in life. In order to make the right choices there must be the option of the wrong (imperfect) choice. Any imperfections he created were intentional so that we could choose them if we wanted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibbs Hog Heaven Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 At the risk of upsetting every Christian out there, I'll let one of sit-coms all time great characters, Couplings inimitable Jeff Murdock, go someway to explaining why God created us in his image: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdkfmUhZRh8 Hail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexey Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 I think free agency is being overlooked by many in this thread. He created us to be able to make our own choices in life. In order to make the right choices there must be the option of the wrong (imperfect) choice. Any imperfections he created were intentional so that we could choose them if we wanted. Tons of "imperfections" seem random, unnecessarily cruel, and not having much to do with free will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Win4us Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 Many good and interesting points in this thread and I agree with B.A.M.F. on the whole choice options for us. I honestly believe if we follow his word, live a good/helpful to others life (ect) we go on to the next step. Basically "graduate" on to the next higher plain of existence (heaven). Those who don't "get it" or are too flawed in bad decisions like career criminals, pshycopaths, just bad people in general go elsewhere (hell) away from heaven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMS Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 Nah, but I'm certain that's why God allowed you to be delusional. Hey now, you're not adhering to Gods purpose for you. ---------- Post added August-11th-2012 at 12:37 PM ---------- Awww...God knew you were that insecure, huh? lol I'm not insecure, I'm just not very smart. Hense the need for you guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B.A.M.F. Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 Alexey - They may seem cruel or unnecessary, but it all contributes to creating an environment where we have to make choices, often hard choices. Plus, it cannot be overlooked that many of the most cruel things that happen are done by us, to us. All of the terrible things in this world are temporary, very much so when looked at through the lens of eternity. Is it cruel to make us briefly go through suffering to make our eternity better? Somewhat like a child being given shots at the doctor. It might seem cruel to the child, but I for one am glad I'll never get polio... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexey Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 Alexey - They may seem cruel or unnecessary, but it all contributes to creating an environment where we have to make choices, often hard choices. Plus, it cannot be overlooked that many of the most cruel things that happen are done by us, to us.All of the terrible things in this world are temporary, very much so when looked at through the lens of eternity. Is it cruel to make us briefly go through suffering to make our eternity better? Somewhat like a child being given shots at the doctor. It might seem cruel to the child, but I for one am glad I'll never get polio... I agree with the first paragraph. This thread was started with the assumption that God exists, so I will not say more than that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsburySkinsFan Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 Hey now, you're not adhering to Gods purpose for you. That's the pain in the arse of free will. :pfft: I'm not insecure, I'm just not very smart. Hense the need for you guys. *hence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Tater Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 Because but if you believe he didn't, why do you believe you are here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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