Larry Bird vs. Magic Johnson (poll)

[pjfootballer]

He was a tough SOB.

Bird's game is one of my favorites to watch. To this day I'll sit down and watch his games when they come on ESPN classic and just be in awe. Bird was an assassin and only got better the angrier he got. He'd take the most bull**** ass shots and they would always. go. in.

I don't think anybody ever knew how to play the game better than Larry Bird and I don't think anybody ever had a better feel for the basketball in his hands than he did. He just knew how to make that little ball go in the basket no matter where he was and which way it came out.

Give me bird between him and Magic. Give me the 6'9 greatest forward crunch time scorer, ridiculous passer, ridiculous rebounder, and high quality defender (when his back was still mostly good). Magic was the great facilitator but sucked at defense and wasn't the crunch time monster Bird was. Bird would have been great whether he had Parish or McHale or not. Magic was a distributor. He needed James Worthy or Kareem or someone to feed.

Imagine how much of an offensive force Bird would be in today's spaced out game? He'd be like Super Kevin Love or a rich man's Dirk. Basically Dirk if he could handle the ball and pass or Love if he knew how to actually win, score super efficiently, and play defense.

LeBron James is kind of what you come away with when you combine Bird with Magic.

I have to go with Steve on this. Everything he said. Bird had it all. If there is a such thing as a 5 tool player in basketball as there is in baseball, Bird would be a 5+ tool player. Cold blooded assissin and they'd he'd tell you about it all the way down the court. The master of anticipation on offense and defense. It's like he had a wireless line to the other 9 players brains on the court and knew where his teamates and the defenders were and what they were going to do.

[DCranon21]

Here is another reason why I'd chose Magic over Bird. Magic is a triple double machine. He's only 2nd behind Oscar Robertson with 136 Triple Doubles overall and still holds the record for most playoff triple doubles in the league(30).

[Predicto]

Why no Defensive Team selections though like Bird? Legit, I have only seen Magic on tape/YouTube/ESPN Classic etc. He did lead the league in steals at one point though didn't he?

Bird got a couple second team selections early in his career because (frankly) forwards in the NBA weren't expected to play lockdown defense back then. Teams scored 110-115 points a game on average. Defense most consisted of jumping the passing lanes. Bird had incredibly quick hands and got a lot of steals, so he got the votes as a defender.

It was only after the Pistons came along and showed how to win with defense and the Bulls took it to the next level that anyone expected a forward to play serious man defense. Bird wasn't particularly good at it (nor were lots of other great players like Barkley, Bernard King, Dominique etc).

I'm not saying Bird was a bad defender, but he was nothing special. At the time, it was not a high priority. The same is true of Magic.

[JMS]

Why no Defensive Team selections though like Bird? Legit, I have only seen Magic on tape/YouTube/ESPN Classic etc. He did lead the league in steals at one point though didn't he?

Magic was a freakish 6'9" point guard. He couldn't cover smaller points in space, no 6'9" guy could.. That's why his defense was bad. but his offense and assists benefited from this same size discrepancy.. think Predicto said that.

Bird was a good team defender, he wasn't a good 1-1 defender like Jordan was.

[Sticksboi05]

Magic was a freakish 6'9" point guard. He couldn't cover smaller points in space, no 6'9" guy could.. That's why his defense was bad. but his offense and assists benefited from this same size discrepancy.. think Predicto said that.

Bird was a good team defender, he wasn't a good 1-1 defender like Jordan was.

That's my conclusion from the tons of footage I've seen of him.

Magic at 6'9 isn't even fair. It's one of the arguments I used in the 92 vs. 2012 thread. He could still play in 1992 and who on 2012 at PG can cover him?

[Going Commando]

Magic was a freakish 6'9" point guard. He couldn't cover smaller points in space, no 6'9" guy could.. That's why his defense was bad. but his offense and assists benefited from this same size discrepancy.. think Predicto said that.

Bird was a good team defender, he wasn't a good 1-1 defender like Jordan was.

LeBron can cover PGs in space. They put him on Derrick Rose in the Bulls series.

I think Bird played good defense with skill and misdirection and anticipation. He'd turn his head like he was going up court then steal the ball off the inbounds and score or dish a no looker to a teammate. He'd get strip steals and he had a knack for making huge plays at just the right moment. But he was also a strong and disciplined player that did a good job holding his ground against big opponents. Plus he was a great defensive rebounder. I think he was pretty good at defense. No, he wouldn't break down and guard a great slasher on his own, but he could play big man defense.

Bird would probably be a PF in today's NBA. A stretch 4. He'd be a good defender in that role.

---------- Post added July-27th-2012 at 03:56 PM ----------

Bird was also a tremendous transition defender.

He was a spontaneous genius and could think faster on his feet than anyone else. Served him well in the transition game.

---------- Post added July-27th-2012 at 04:06 PM ----------

One thing about Bird though, if you were a JaVale McGee, I don't see how you play with him for long before he tears your head off. You had to be pretty sharp to keep up with him.

[DieselPwr44]

Larry always said that Magic was the best player he'd ever seen, so who am I to doubt him?

BTW, ponder this: Larry's back gave out on him in 1984, so just imagine how his career may have turned out if his back had actually been 100% healthy?

Scary thought, because as we all know, the way it did turn out was pretty awesome to begin with.

[thebluefood]

Magic Johnson, because he has an awesome porno name.

This never crossed my mind.

Oh lawd!

[TheDane]

I hate to have to choose, but my vote (very barely) goes to Magic.

[Gracelander]

When Larry retired I quit watching basketball.

[Going Commando]

I mean a career stat line of 24/10/6 for a SF is incredible. Also has to be a top 5 clutch shooter ever.

24/10/6 is the most impressive career stat line of the post merger era IMO. It's unfathomable. How can someone be so good at every facet? I can understand the scoring and rebounding numbers but not the assists. And by the same token, I can understand the scoring and assist numbers, but definitely not the rebound numbers too.

I doubt we ever see that line ever again. LeBron will surpass those scoring and assist numbers most likely, but he won't average 10 rebounds for his career. Not even close.

I don't think Bird was just a top five clutch shooter all time. I think he was the greatest clutch shooter, even ahead of Jerry West and MJ. Bird's heroics were ridiculous. He would literally do things just to amuse himself. I think he was the greatest shooter in NBA history. Think about all the legendary shots he made. Behind the backboard. The left handed 15 foot bank shot. WTF? The endless game winning threes. So many of them momentum shots in transition off the dribble. Three point competition on his last ball. Master of the four point play. 15+ foot tear drops. Undisputed King of the fadeaway. Shooting the ball as he's falling down and half court makes as time runs out.

Larry Bird was nailing shots in playoff games we wouldn't dare take in a pickup game at the gym. He was amazing.

[DieselPwr44]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmmrcY4NxCM

[The 12th Commandment]

When I was 13 I saw Larry Bird and Indiana State play my NMSU Aggies (who were pretty good that year). Here's the highlight from our local paper. I am hopelessly biased for Bird because of it. The guy he punched deserved it in a big way and just to see him sink long jumpers one after another, with the grace he had, was amazing. He was one of my heroes.

Feb. 1, 1979

Bird, the nation's leading scorer at 30.2 points per game, visits the Pan American Center, once again, as a member of No. 2-ranked Indiana State.

It was an eventful affair for Bird, whose team won 91-89 in overtime to move to 19-0 on the season. The legendary shooter scored 37 points, pulled down 17 rebounds and punched a fan.

Bird tripped into the stands where a fan threw a program in his direction. Bird got up and gave the fan a hard slap in the face.

Bird actually fouled out before the overtime period. His replacement, guard Bob Heaton, hit a desperation, three-quarter-court shot at the buzzer to send the contest into overtime tied at 83.

NMSU struggled from the line throughout, going 19 of 33 for the contest. Overtime was no different, as the Aggies missed three separate front ends of one-and-one opportunities.

NMSU never led during the OT, but did have a chance to tie it in the closing seconds. Down two, NMSU's Greg Webb missed a jumper at the top of the key with three seconds remaining.

[Sticksboi05]

Undisputed King of the fadeaway.

That might be debatable.

[DieselPwr44]

That might be debatable.

Who had a better one?

[Sticksboi05]

Who had a better one?

Not better but tied #1 w/ MJ maybe in terms of ability. Bird did have more "WTF" fadeaways whereas MJ's were just, you knew he'd survey the D holding the ball out behind him then drive, 360 spin, fadeaway, wet.

I'd probably go 1a Bird 1b MJ

[No_Pressure]

No look passes are a real talent. Gotta go with Bird.

[Going Commando]

Who had the better surrounding talent?

[Destructis]

Really a tough call for me. I think they made each other better. The competition between them was something that has never been matched.

[SpacePenguin]

Who had the better surrounding talent?

Magic, I'd say. Those Laker teams were very athletic for that era. They couldn't have scored 130 a game otherwise ;p.

I remember being 12 and looking forward to watching the Saturday games. Before Bird got hurt, he was such a monster. Magic's style of play was ahead of it's time, but wasn't really a scorer, rather more of an up tempo distributor. He caused matchup problems as well. I'd give the edge to Bird in terms of team defense and rebounding, though.

As a kid, Bird and Jordan were the most fun to watch by far. Magic was a great player too, but with him it seemed more like his surrounding talent and the whole hyped up image of "showtime" really influenced his mystique. Bird(if reasonably healthy) or Jordan would carry any team, on the other hand. Just my subjective opinion, though.

I voted Bird.

[Going Commando]

Magic, I'd say. Those Laker teams were very athletic for that era. They couldn't have scored 130 a game otherwise ;p.

I remember being 12 and looking forward to watching the Saturday games. Before Bird got hurt, he was such a monster. Magic's style of play was ahead of it's time, but wasn't really a scorer, rather more of an up tempo distributor. He caused matchup problems as well. I'd give the edge to Bird in terms of team defense and rebounding, though.

As a kid, Bird and Jordan were the most fun to watch by far. Magic was a great player too, but with him it seemed more like his surrounding talent and the whole hyped up image of "showtime" really influenced his mystique. Bird(if reasonably healthy) or Jordan would carry any team, on the other hand. Just my subjective opinion, though.

I voted Bird.

I agree with you on all points.

Kareem and Worthy and Byron Scott and Michael Cooper beats Parrish, McHale, Johnson, and company.

Magic beats Bird on longevity and health and accomplishments. But if Bird had been able to play longer and stay healthier, I don't think this would be a close debate. He was a better all around basketball player. Definitely a more spectacular player.

[pjfootballer]

When I was 13 I saw Larry Bird and Indiana State play my NMSU Aggies (who were pretty good that year). Here's the highlight from our local paper. I am hopelessly biased for Bird because of it. The guy he punched deserved it in a big way and just to see him sink long jumpers one after another, with the grace he had, was amazing. He was one of my heroes.

Amazing that Bird took "Indiana State" to No 2 in the nation and to a title game, whereas Magic played for Michigan State, who always seem to have very good teams. Anyone know what Indiana State has done since 1979? Nothing.

[JMS]

Bird would probably be a PF in today's NBA. A stretch 4. He'd be a good defender in that role.

Bird would not be a "good defender" at power forward.... Bird doesn't have the strength or size to go inside with a Carl Malone or a Barkley much less a Shaq.. And if you forced him to you would be giving up one of Birds greatest skills. The fact that he could shoot the lights out of a nat from behind the 3 pt line. Dirk Nowitzki is a power forward who shoots outside, but Dirk is also 7 feet tall, and has 25 lbs on Bird...

I think Bird would remain a small forward in today's NBA, and would dominate even more than he did in the 1980's benifiting from the looser defenses and better enforcement of shooting fouls.

I also think the international game heavily favors Bird's Game. The baskets are larger diameter, the three point line is closer in, and big men all group under the basket and clogg the lane... That leaves the wing wide open for a pure shooter like Bird.

Bird was also a tremendous transition defender.

Bird was a very smart basketball player with an off the charts basketball IQ. He was also tall and was probable the greatest 3 point shooter in the history of the game, especially when the pressure was on.

Bird was not a great 1 on 1 defender, and he wasn't particularly athletic. He wasn't a freak athlete like Lebron, or Malone who could take you to the basket anytime he wanted. Bird was a guy who kept you off balance and would out think you. He could take you to the basket, or shoot, or pass; and you never knew which he'd do because he was pretty good at all three...

He was a spontaneous genius and could think faster on his feet than anyone else. Served him well in the transition game.

Yeah I think Magic was probable more athletic than bird, certainly more versatile.... I think they were both off the charts basketball smart.

One thing about Bird though, if you were a JaVale McGee, I don't see how you play with him for long before he tears your head off. You had to be pretty sharp to keep up with him.

Here you have one of the best things about Bird. Bird worked harder than anybody else. He earned peoples respect. And he was a total jerk to folks who didn't show up. Bird Inspired people around him to bring their best game. Folks like Kowami Brown, Javale McGee, or Andray Blatche; could not have coexisted on his team as under performers... I think Jordan and Magic both had that quality too.

---------- Post added July-30th-2012 at 12:03 PM ----------

Who had the better surrounding talent?

Bird had better talent on the starting five, LA generally had a better bench. Least that was the formula when the Celtics won championships... Boston's starters played most of the games with Bird going 40+ minutes. LA always seemed to have a Michael Cooper or Kirt Rambis coming off the bench and contributing. Boston did have Walton coming off the bench for one title though.

---------- Post added July-30th-2012 at 12:10 PM ----------

Who had the better surrounding talent?

Bird had better talent on the starting five, LA generally had a better bench. Least that was the formula when the Celtics won championships... Boston's starters played most of the games with Bird going 40+ minutes. LA always seemed to have a Michael Cooper or Kirt Rambis coming off the bench and contributing. Boston did have Walton coming off the bench for one title though.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

I think it's a tie.

From 80 to 86, it was Bird in a walk.

Magic was awesome, but he wasn't even the best player on his own team. He wasn't a great shooter, and he wasn't a great defender. He also got a coach fired in those years.

After 86, Bird started to break down and Magic - inconceivably - got better as a player. He became a pretty good shooter (and an awesome free throw shooter). He also became a great leader once Kareem finally turned into a statue.

People never give Magic credit for '91, because that was Michael Jordan's year.

But have you ever looked at the '91 Lakers roster?

It was Magic and Worthy, in Worthy's last truly great NBA season. (By the way, those you pushing Worthy in the all time great power forwards thread need to look at his career once Magic retired. He was finished as a player at age 31).

Then there was Divac who was just a kid and barely spoke English.

And that's it.....Byron Scott and Sam Perkins were just guys. Mychael Thompson was dead on his feet. Terry Teagle looked like Sasquatch. AC Green was all backed up with sperm.

That team barely had a functional starting five and Magic somehow got them to the Finals.

If Bird had been healthy after '87, I go with him. But overall, I think it's Magic.

And that annoys me, because I was a Bird guy.

[China]

AC Green was all backed up with sperm.

That and his chronic hiccups that wouldn't allow him to sleep for more than 2 hours at a time.