Yahoo/AP: Tough ID laws could block thousands of 2012 votes

[Kilmer17]

We can talk about how silly it is that million of people don't have ID, but that doesn't change the fact that an estimated 11% of eligible voters do not have proper photo ID to vote. Most poor, elderly, and minorities.

Yes, it is easy in our opinion to get ID.

Yes, it is seems insane that folks live without ID.

Yes, you have had an ID since you were 15 and can't imagine a world not having it or using it.

That is great. I actually agree. But all of that doesn't change the fact that MILLIONS of folks don't have proper ID, don't know how to get it, and/or are unable to get it.

If you want Photo Voter ID - Then state governments should fund enormous multi-year campaigns that does everything possible to make sure that 11% has a photo ID.

---------- Post added July-11th-2012 at 10:41 AM ----------

Smaller electorates lead to extremists unwilling to compromise on both sides.

Our current low voter turnout models are creating a system where only the most conservative, most liberal, least compromising candidates are being elected - this is especially true in state governments where election turn outs are even lower than national elections.

IMO - when fewer people vote, you don't get more informed electorate, you get more extreme electorate.

I think our extremist politicians today are more the result of gerrymandering by the Dems and GOP. And our primary systems in states where it's the die hards that show up to vote.

We also need more Congressional districts, but that's a different thread.

[mistertim]

If you aren't going to contribute to the conversation here, please stay out. Go to credible news sources about the numbers. It's not difficult to find.

We might as well just get it out of the way and do it for him. It will probably be less painful this way in the long run.

http://www.brennancenter.org/page/-/d/download_file_39242.pdf

Summary

A recent national survey sponsored by the Brennan Center for Justice at NYU School of

Law reveals that millions of American citizens do not have readily available documentary

proof of citizenship. Many more – primarily women – do not have proof of citizenship

with their current name. The survey also showed that millions of American citizens do

not have government-issued photo identification, such as a driver’s license or passport.

Finally, the survey demonstrated that certain groups – primarily poor, elderly, and

minority citizens – are less likely to possess these forms of documentation than the

general population.

From November 16-19, 2006, the independent Opinion Research Corporation conducted

a telephone survey of 987 randomly selected voting-age American citizens. The survey

included several questions sponsored by the Brennan Center, asking whether respondents

had readily available documentary proof of citizenship or government-issued photo

identification, and if so, whether it contained current information

[Chants]

If you aren't going to contribute to the conversation here, please stay out. Go to credible news sources about the numbers. It's not difficult to find.

No. That is not acceptable in a debate. Prove your numbers. Prove that MILLIONS do not have access to the IDs in question.

[Larry]

No. That is not acceptable in a debate. Prove your numbers. Prove that MILLIONS do not have access to the IDs in question.

The post in front of yours good enough for you?

[Predicto]

No. That is not acceptable in a debate. Prove your numbers. Prove that MILLIONS do not have access to the IDs in question.

LOL. Was the post before this one too long to read?

If you are so lazy that you need TWO people to answer a question that could be answered with a 10 second Google seach, I guess I will do it again.

As many as 11 percent of United States citizens – more than 21 million individuals – do not have government-issued photo identification. Eleven percent of the American citizens surveyed responded that they do not have current, unexpired government-issued identification with a photograph, such as a driver’s license or military ID.8 Using 2000 census calculations of the citizen voting-age population, this translates to more than 21 million American adult citizens nationwide who do not possess valid government photo ID.

Elderly citizens are less likely to possess government-issued photo identification. Survey results indicate that seniors disproportionately lack photo identification. Eighteen percent of American citizens age 65 and above do not have current government-issued photo ID.9 Using 2005 census estimates, this amounts to more than 6 million senior citizens.

Minority citizens are less likely to possess government-issued photo identification. According to the survey, African-American citizens also disproportionately lack photo identification. Twenty-five percent of African-American voting-age citizens have no current government-issued photo ID, compared to eight percent of white voting-age citizens.10 Using 2000 census figures, this amounts to more than 5.5 million adult African-American citizens without photo identification. Our survey also indicated that sixteen percent of Hispanic voting-age citizens have no current government-issued photo ID, but due to a low sample size, the results did not achieve statistical significance.11

Citizens with comparatively low incomes are less likely to possess photo identification. Citizens earning less than $35,000 per year are more than twice as likely to lack current government-issued photo identification as those earning more than $35,000. Indeed, the survey indicates that at least 15 percent of voting-age American citizens earning less than $35,000 per year do not have a valid government-issued photo ID.

http://www.brennancenter.org/page/-/d/download_file_39242.pdf

Can we move on now, please?

[Jumbo]

No. That is not acceptable in a debate.

Hey. You don't determine such matters here---right now you're the one who should check yourself. Participate or don't, but don't set yourself up to school others, when, given your standard contributions, you have little room to do so with credibility, even if we ignore the fact you have zero authority to do so.

Maybe bring your own material supporting your challenge would be a start, or at east expand on what you think such numbers might look like and why.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Eh...is it really that important that old people or black people or Hispanic people vote?

(Since I always get in trouble for this..... That was SARCASM!!!!!)

[Jumbo]

Eh...is it really that important that old people or black people or Hispanic people vote?

(Since I always get in trouble for this..... That was SARCASM!!!!!)

Well, I think you're right on the money. But you forgot to add women, gays, and lefties. Oh, and the disabled.

[Chants]

The post in front of yours good enough for you?

No. It was not. I asked about the MILLIONS who do not have access to the IDs in question. Not the people who do not have the IDs currently. I am asking about access to the IDs.

[Predicto]

Eh...is it really that important that old people or black people or Hispanic people vote?

(Since I always get in trouble for this..... That was SARCASM!!!!!)

Actually' date=' putting the sarcasm aside for a second. This probably doesn't matter as much as it appears. Fact is, people without photo ID, especially the poor, are not reliable voters. A lot of the people who are going to be found ineligible to vote wouldn't have showed up at the polls anyway. It's still the wrong thing to do (IMO) but it isn't as big a deal as "21 million votes!!!"

---------- Post added July-11th-2012 at 11:28 AM ----------

No. It was not. I asked about the MILLIONS who do not have access to the IDs in question. Not the people who do not have the IDs currently. I am asking about access to the IDs.

It's in the link.

[greenspandan]

In Texas, a Student ID is not acceptable, but a Gun License is. Go figure.

hmm. knowing texas, gun licenses probably come free in their breakfast cereals.

[Kilmer17]

hmm. knowing texas, gun licenses probably come free in their breakfast cereals.

Could be as simple as a person could be a resident of Oklahoma attending college in Texas.

[Chants]

OK. I am absolutely rebuked. I have no answer so I will just STFU.

But....after reading that link, I must highly stress the importance of getting a certified copy of your birth certificate now. I have one. Please do it if you don't have one.

[Predicto]

Could be as simple as a person could be a resident of Oklahoma attending college in Texas.

True.

Actually, the only clear case of vote fraud that I know of is when Ann Coulter (a Connecticut resident) illegally voted in Florida. It really doesn't happen very often. One vote at a time, with potential massive consequences for each individual involved, simply is no way to steal an election.

---------- Post added July-11th-2012 at 11:56 AM ----------

]

OK. I am absolutely rebuked. I have no answer so I will just STFU.

Good on you for saying that. :cheers: Many ESers would rather die than admit a mistake.

But....after reading that link, I must highly stress the importance of getting a certified copy of your birth certificate now. I have one. Please do it if you don't have one.

And the fact is, most of us are middle class and most of us have our papers in order. It's not a problem for those of us with bank accounts, with credit cards, with car loans, etc. For the poor and the elderly, it is a big problem, and not one many of them are likely to solve before an election.

It's hard for the typical middle class American to stand in the shoes of the poor and understand how truly different their lives are than our own. I learned that when I represented a very poor poor couple in a pro bono landlord tenant dispute. They didn't have IDs, they didn't have credit cards, they didn't have birth records, they didn't have medical records, they didn't have financial records, they didn't have much of anything. They just lived day to day. They were still Americans and still entitled to vote (although I doubt they ever did). :whoknows:

[deejaydana]

You can play the stats however you like to sell your case (as always). I think the majority of Americans still support photo IDs from all recent polls that I've read in the past year (including Hispanics). It's also not exactly a Herculean task to obtain one should you be motivated enough to vote. How many of the %'s listed in that earlier link (those who don't have IDs) are attributable to apathy? Mexico reportedly now has voter ID laws everywhere and while they're no bellwether for voting purity why can't we abide by this simple standard that the majority now says they want?

[Kilmer17]

True.

Actually, the only clear case of vote fraud that I know of is when Ann Coulter (a Connecticut resident) illegally voted in Florida. It really doesn't happen very often. One vote at a time, with potential massive consequences for each individual involved, simply is no way to steal an election.

I think the FLA election of 2000 proves why it matters. I agree it's not often. But I havent seen proof of any legal voter being denied the right to vote either.

The truth (as I have been saying) is that the issue is much broader than either of those points.

[Predicto]

You can play the stats however you like to sell your case (as always). I think the majority of Americans still support photo IDs from all recent polls that I've read in the past year (including Hispanics). It's also not exactly a Herculean task to obtain one should you be motivated enough to vote. How many of the %'s listed in that earlier link (those who don't have IDs) are attributable to apathy? Mexico reportedly now has voter ID laws everywhere and while they're no bellwether for voting purity why can't we abide by this simple standard that the majority now says they want?

If they made them super easy to get, I probably would agree.

Like I said before, you are correct about the polling information. And like I said just above, "It's hard for the typical middle class American to stand in the shoes of the poor and understand how truly different their lives are than our own."

And most middle class Americans don't even bother to think about such things - thus, the polling data to which you refer. "If it's simple and automatic for ME to have a photo ID, then it must be simple and automatic for everyone." But that's not really true.

[Kilmer17]

ID's are just one piece of the debate.

[deejaydana]

If they made them super easy to get, I probably would agree.

Like I said before, you are correct about the polling information. And like I said just above, "It's hard for the typical middle class American to stand in the shoes of the poor and understand how truly different their lives are than our own."

And most middle class Americans don't even bother to think about such things - thus, the polling data to which you refer. "If it's simple and automatic for ME to have a photo ID, then it must be simple and automatic for everyone." But that's not really true.

It's what $2 to obtain one? Where people can't do that it certainly should be subsidized. I think any fair person can agree with this. As time passes the technical standard for proof should tighten not slacken. How do we have the voting issue in 2000 Florida happen and not tighten the ship? It seems silly to me we haven't more forcefully addressed it.

[renaissance]

Could be as simple as a person could be a resident of Oklahoma attending college in Texas.

If they are a college student they can register to vote in either place.

In Minnesota, a student ID is acceptable as long as your name is on the dorm list provided by your university to election officials.

---------- Post added July-11th-2012 at 03:12 PM ----------

It's what $2 to obtain one? Where people can't do that it certainly should be subsidized. I think any fair person can agree with this. As time passes the technical standard for proof should tighten not slacken. How do we have the voting issue in 2000 Florida happen and not tighten the ship? It seems silly to me we haven't more forcefully addressed it.

I think it's $15 in MD, plus the trip to the MVA, which is a whole other challenge for those people who don't get paid time off from work.

[Kilmer17]

If they are a college student they can register to vote in either place.

In Minnesota, a student ID is acceptable as long as your name is on the dorm list provided by your university to election officials.

---------- Post added July-11th-2012 at 03:12 PM ----------

I think it's $15 in MD, plus the trip to the MVA, which is a whole other challenge for those people who don't get paid time off from work.

Yes, but not in BOTH places.

With a license from one state and a college ID in another, that student could cast ballots in both places.

[mistertim]

It's what $2 to obtain one? Where people can't do that it certainly should be subsidized. I think any fair person can agree with this. As time passes the technical standard for proof should tighten not slacken. How do we have the voting issue in 2000 Florida happen and not tighten the ship? It seems silly to me we haven't more forcefully addressed it.

It isn't just a matter of paying for it. Some people don't have all of the documentation that is required to get a photo ID (usually the very poor, the elderly, disabled, etc). For example in VA you have to come with not 1 or 2 or 3 but 4 pieces of documentation:

http://www.dmv.state.va.us/webdoc/citizen/id/get_id.asp

Required Documents

If you are applying for an ID card for the first time and do not hold a valid Virginia driver's license, each time you apply for the ID card, you will be required to show two proofs of identity (only one primary document if you are under age 19), one proof of legal presence and one proof of Virginia residency. You will be required to show these required documents on each return visit until your ID card is issued.

How much you want to be that there are quite a few poor people who don't have, or even have access to all of that? Like Predicto said, its easy for us middle class people to look at that list and say "Meh, yeah I got that stuff" or not even bother because we've had a driver's license since we were 16, but we take that for granted; it is much different when you're talking about it from the perspective of someone who is barely able to make it day to day.

[renaissance]

Yes, but not in BOTH places.

With a license from one state and a college ID in another, that student could cast ballots in both places.

I'm going to assume college students voting in two places isn't a rampant problem.

[Predicto]

I think it's $15 in MD, plus the trip to the MVA, which is a whole other challenge for those people who don't get paid time off from work.

Or own a car, for that matter. Or even be able to drive one (the elderly)

It's not that it is impossible to get a photo ID. It is clearly a pretty big barrier for a lot of people, and statistically, those people were more likely to vote democrat. Which is the real reason we are having this debate, as Kilmer recognizes.

As an aside, it also costs the states a lot to implement photo ID voting laws, money which is kind of a waste given the complete lack of evidence that anyone is voting illegally.

[Kilmer17]

I'm going to assume college students voting in two places isn't a rampant problem.

I would also assume that college students not having the required ID to vote isnt a problem either.