People Really are Buying the GOP Narrative that Obamacare is a "Tax"?!

[Jumbo]

If I had a quarter for every time Jumbo politely, and in far too many words, called me a dumbass, I'd be a wealthy man.

My friend, I don't have time now but I am going to use you here to indulge myself at some point and write a bit about the whole "wordiness" thing as applied to me specifically :cool: and just in general (yes, I know you were just playing, and even if you weren't it hardly perturbs me, it's just a topic I have written on before in other venues).

Per "dumbass", keep in mind that whether it's that term, or "stupid", or virtually any other such slam, I consider them all states of being that we all enter into from time to time. So, no, I don't think you "are" a "dumbass." I think the meat of such evaluations is in how long, how often, and to what depth, do we plumb those states of being. I also like to regularly note that we can often learn a lot about ourselves by some of our reactions. Many times, our reactons are all about our stuff and actually has very little to do with the person or matter we suggest (and even believe) it's about when we communicate that reaction. :pfft:

[twa]

I do enjoy my peeps getting their knickers twisted because they can't freeload (despite being able to afford it) on the rest of us who pay into the healthcare system.

If that was truly the issue/problem it could easily be addressed with minor debt collection adjustments

I would be curious to see evidence of this freeloading by the well off if you have time

this bill enables more freeloading(even if that is not it's purpose) while using the younger generation for funding

[Burgold]

See, I don't mind the idea that it is a tax. I also don't mind the idea that if you want something it should be paid for.

I think Obama made a foolish mistake in saying that healthcare would not cost a penny nor involve raised taxes. I'd rather go with the shared responsibility model and an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure mentality.

[deejaydana]

The GOP is going to use the word "tax" as it's (rightly or wrongly) completely toxic in an election run up. And yes Burgold, Obama would have done better if he hadn't mis-sold it a couple years back by stating that it wouldn't add anything to the debt. I'm not sure, as others have said earlier, that the SCOTUS ruling is really going to sway votes for people who already had their minds made up on this issue but heck, it's all about the 10-15% of Indies who will swing this election to one side. Should be interesting although I could do without the obviously cheap adverts that both sides are now going to serve up.

[PeterMP]

Isn't the last CBO projection still that it will be net deficeit reducing?

As the bill went through multiple forms and the CBO has done multiple analysis, I lost track what the CBO's final projections were.

But I'm pretty sure the final CBO was AT LEAST defciet neutral.

[Burgold]

Isn't the last CBO projection still that it will be net deficeit reducing?

As the bill went through multiple forms and the CBO has done multiple analysis, I lost track what the CBO's final projections were.

But I'm pretty sure the final CBO was AT LEAST defciet neutral.

I think it is and if we balance prevention, medical records efficiency, and bureaucratic streamlining (whoo boy)... maybe it could. I suspect when it is actually implemented esp. initially it will cost a few dimes and that the CBO's projection will be off.

[Predicto]

It still boggles my mind that the Heritage Foundation was the guys who came up with the greatest tax increase in history.

[twa]

It still boggles my mind that the Heritage Foundation was the guys who came up with the greatest tax increase in history.

they probably meant originating in the Senate...just saying

[Larry]

It still boggles my mind that the Heritage Foundation was the guys who came up with the greatest tax increase in history.

Well, they had to do something, what with Reagan holding the record, and all.

[Teller]

See, I don't mind the idea that it is a tax. I also don't mind the idea that if you want something it should be paid for.

I think Obama made a foolish mistake in saying that healthcare would not cost a penny nor involve raised taxes. I'd rather go with the shared responsibility model and an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure mentality.

That sub-$250k a year promise should be his downfall, just as "read my lips" was for GHWB.

And having considered the thread title for a bit....

People are really buying "Supreme Court upholds Obamacare" but completely dismissing "Supreme Court calls penalties a tax?"

If you're going to accept the SCOTUS' decision, accept their decision. Hunting and pecking ain't becoming.

[Larry]

Actually, my reaction is "of course it has taxes in it. How else to you think they paid for it?"

I think, from what I read on, I think, politifact, there are like seven taxes that were passed as part of the package. (This was from their discussion of "biggest tax hike in history", which I think they rated as "pants on fire".) (They explained that this makes it a bit tough to judge how big of a tax increase it is, because it isn't one big tax, it's seven little taxes, with like seven starting dates. For their analysis, they treated it like it was one tax, which takes effect in, I think, 2019, the year that the last one actually kicks in.)

Of course Obamacare includes taxes.

Which doesn't in any way mean that it is a tax.

The interstate highway system has a tax, too. (It's built into every gallon of gas you buy.)

That doesn't mean that the interstate highway system is a tax. It's paid for through a tax.

[Teller]

And Larry, you've known me long enough to see through the snark, but I took "no American making less than $250k will see a tax increase of any kind" to heart. It was one of the key pillars of why I supported candidate Obama.

Of course I don't want more unfunded mandates, and I realize you can't have it both ways, but that was a key campaign promise. Can we agree that it's been broken?

[Burgold]

That sub-$250k a year promise should be his downfall, just as "read my lips" was for GHWB.

In a way I don't disagree. But I also think that a President shouldn't speak in absolutes nor should Congress. That's why the "no tax" pledge every GOPer these days seems to sign is so destructive. You need to be able to adapt to the needs of the country and use every tool in the box.

That said, I think Obama saying "Read my lips" or his version of it was dumb and I have no problem with you holding him to account for it. Mind you, I think he shouldn't have said that and he shouldn't have stuck to it,but that's neither here nor there.

[Teller]

In a way I don't disagree. But I also think that a President shouldn't speak in absolutes nor should Congress. That's why the "no tax" pledge every GOPer these days seems to sign is so destructive. You need to be able to adapt to the needs of the country and use every tool in the box.

That said, I think Obama saying "Read my lips" or his version of it was dumb and I have no problem with you holding him to account for it. Mind you, I think he shouldn't have said that and he shouldn't have stuck to it,but that's neither here nor there.

I agree, buddy. But that was his big swing at people like me.

Strike three.

[Riggo-toni]

Isn't the last CBO projection still that it will be net deficeit reducing?

If I recall correctly it was supposed to save $210B over 10 years.

Then again, Medicare was supposed to cost a fraction of what it became.

It still boggles my mind that the Heritage Foundation was the guys who came up with the greatest tax increase in history.

The fact that 1% of the population is going to have to pay a fee for refusing to get insurance hardly qualifies as the "biggest tax increase in history." Almost as ridiculous as Bob Dole, the guy who sponsored TEFRA, the biggest tax increase in post-WWII history in real dollars, accusing Clinton of passing the biggest tax increase in the history of the world.

A mandate has been part of every GOP healthcare reform proposal for the last 15 years...until Obama adopted it. The problem with Obamacare is not the mandate; it is the devil in details that will make it a huge cost burden to the economy. Obama and the Dems put all the emphasis on maximizing coverage, when the primary focus should've been reducing costs.

As a Reaganite, I absolutely detest what the GOP has become - not a single f****g idea anymore - just be sure to hate and denounce whatever Obama stands for. They elected the most fiscally reckless, foreign policy challenged nitwit just when our country needed someone with discipline and insight. Between father and son, the Bush family sold out the Reagan movement for a Neo-Nixonian theocracy.

[Larry]

And Larry, you've known me long enough to see through the snark, but I took "no American making less than $250k will see a tax increase of any kind" to heart. It was one of the key pillars of why I supported candidate Obama.

Of course I don't want more unfunded mandates, and I realize you can't have it both ways, but that was a key campaign promise. Can we agree that it's been broken?

Funny. I remember him making those comments in the context of his plan to repeal some, but not all, of the Bush tax cuts.

I don't recall him saying that there would not be any taxes of any kind during his entire administration.

Nor do I recall him promising that, even if the Republicans were able to successfully prevent the expiration of the tax cuts he wanted to end[/u], then he quaranteed that the revenue would not be partially be made up, anywhere else.

In short, I think you're (intentionally) getting yourself worked up over him not fulfilling a promise that he never made.

(Or, at the very least, a promise that, like the claim that every single discussion of the health care bill would be televised, that every rational person knew in advance could not possibly be met.)

[Teller]

In short, I think you're (intentionally) getting yourself worked up over him not fulfilling a promise that he never made.

(Or, at the very least, a promise that, like the claim that every single discussion of the health care bill would be televised, that every rational person knew in advance could not possibly be met.)

And that's fair. I have my biases, as do you.

But maybe you can explain this....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HE-rGGKksQ

[Hubbs]

This is going to be a "GOP narrative" for about another 48 hours or so. I'm honestly not entirely sure how it's at least sort-of, kind-of fit that description since the ruling was announced, seeing as that sort of seems to defeat the entire point of the legal challenge.

Obama: Let's institute Obamacare.

GOP: Hell no. It sucks. It's awful. It kills jobs and increases red tape and does a hundred other bad things. Plus, it amounts to a huge tax hike in the middle of economic stagnation!

Obama: It's not a tax. I'll quibble quite a bit on this point.

GOP: And we'll quibble back. But really, who cares? It still sucks and is still awful. We're going to challenge it in court.

Supreme Court: Obamacare is upheld, but it's only upheld because the mandate is a tax.

(Some of the) GOP: HA! We WIN, sucka! We get the talking point that you're raising taxes—nevermind the fact that we were going to attack you for wanting to raise taxes anyway—and the only cost was the Supreme Court ruling in favor of the law that we hate!

(Rest of the) GOP: Wait... what the **** are you guys talking about?

Obama: *guffaw*

I think Republicans are going to figure out pretty quickly that they should be saying that Obama has been right all along—it's not a tax. And therefore, it's not constitutional.

[twa]

the mandate can be constitutional and still a very bad idea,besides which the legal challenges continue on other aspects

the price of unpopular legislation

[Hubbs]

the mandate can be constitutional and still a very bad idea,besides which the legal challenges continue on other aspects

the price of unpopular legislation

...or the mandate can be unconstitutional. Which it is, unless it's a tax.

It's only a matter of days until this "GOP narrative" becomes a "Democrat narrative" because it's the only one they've got.

[Koolblue13]

So it's something that everyone will pay for, in their taxes, but it's not a tax if you're exempt and if you do pay it, it's a fine?

It walks and quacks like a duck, but it's an octopus. Got it.

[Burgold]

...or the mandate can be unconstitutional. Which it is, unless it's a tax.

It's only a matter of days until this "GOP narrative" becomes a "Democrat narrative" because it's the only one they've got.

It is constitutional. That's settled. It's legal the way Medicare, SS, and even states mandating you buy auto insurance is legal. The whole notion that a universal health program was unconstitutional was absurd since we have several government run federal programs already in place whether we're talking Medicare VA or other. All of these are paid for via taxes.

Mind you, I wish America's version wasn't going to be run through private insurers but that was something conservatives wanted and the dens caved on

[Hubbs]

It is constitutional. That's settled. It's legal the way Medicare, SS, and even states mandating you buy auto insurance is legal. The whole notion that a universal health program was unconstitutional was absurd since we have several government run federal programs already in place whether we're talking Medicare VA or other. All of these are paid for via taxes.

Mind you, I wish America's version wasn't going to be run through private insurers but that was something conservatives wanted and the dens caved on

That... has nothing to do with what I said, but it all sounds good, so, hey, close enough.

[Burgold]

That's okay. I said earlier, I don't mind it being a tax. In fact, I think it should be. (Also, I slightly misread it... wasn't quite awake)

Regardless, it was an absurdity to challenge the Health reform as unconstitutional since we decided long ago that Medicare was constitutional.

[@DCGoldPants]

That's okay. I said earlier, I don't mind it being a tax. In fact, I think it should be. (Also, I slightly misread it... wasn't quite awake)

Regardless, it was an absurdity to challenge the Health reform as unconstitutional since we decided long ago that Medicare was constitutional.

When elected officials throw around words like socialism, fascism, liberty and freedom when they clearly have no idea what those words actually mean. Its not surprising that something like this would really confuse them.