Obamacare...(new title): GOP DEATH PLAN: Don-Ryan's Express

[LadySkinsFan]

Come on, Lisa! Let your humanity win out instead of the corporatist.

[visionary]

 

 

 

[Mooka]

At least Ted Cruz acts like a functioning legislator and in turn gets a provision that makes somewhat rational sense. 

 

 

In my lifetime I've heard a politician admit the government doesn't make things cheaper twice now and the other is still Ross Perot. 

[TheGreatBuzz]

33 minutes ago, AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy said:

People will forgo the better insurance because they won't be able to afford it.  That's a big difference.

 

I pay 500 a month for a 7000 deductible.  I had the opportunity to pay 750 a month for a 1700 deductible.  Are those good choices?

Nope.

 

But thats why we need to focus more on healthcare costs and less on insurance.  

[Hersh]

43 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

So if people forgo the better insurance, isnt that their choice?  And its up to them to accept the consequences of their choice?

 

The problem with some of the line of thinking on cheaper plans is that these people will still get treated in a hospital even if their health care plan doesn't cover a specific procedure. Plus, ultimately people not getting proper care will cost more to society by being less productive members of society. If someone goes broke cause they can't pay their health care bill or they don't get treatment to help them recover, they inevitably will end up on government assistance. I feel like there are obvious cycles here that aren't being addressed. I view having a clean environment much in the same way. If people have quality health care and people have a clean environment, ultimately they will end up with more money in their pockets and have significantly more productive lives.   

3 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

Nope.

 

But thats why we need to focus more on healthcare costs and less on insurance.  

 

Agreed. 

[visionary]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 13, 2017 by visionary

[tshile]

1 hour ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

So if people forgo the better insurance, isnt that their choice?  And its up to them to accept the consequences of their choice?

 

Yeah, if only it worked that way.

 

Except when people can afford the bill they just don't pay it, the cost gets passed on to the rest of us (that didn't gamble on our health)

 

If people were forced to accept the consequences for how they prioritize their health and health insurance, we wouldn't be in the mess we're in.

 

[tshile]

2 hours ago, skinsfan_1215 said:

 

Correct. They always go up. Constantly. It's just a matter of how fast. 

when you tell some people that the rate at which they increase has decreased

 

you can see their eyes gloss over

 

and then their whole face fills with rage

 

they don't get it but they get angry at the same time

 

then they advocate we go back to the system that we know is a failure

 

it's remarkable while at the same time infuriating

 

Edited July 13, 2017 by tshile

[visionary]

 

[visionary]

 

 

 

Edited July 13, 2017 by visionary

[Larry]

8 hours ago, Kilmer17 said:

I dont want the GOP to do ANYTHING with Obamacare.  Let it fail on it's own.  Any proposed "fix" is simply putting a bandaid on a gutshot.

 

Specific to a plan, though, that would offer buyers more choices?  I'm all for that specific idea.  Let those people who want less bells and whistles pay less and get what they want.

 

"Bells and whistles" being defined as things like "any medical services you get in the hospital", or "any medical services that you get, without being in the hospital".  

 

Cause, you know, those are the "bells and whistles" that Obamacare mandated that all insurance had to cover, and which the GOP wants to strip out.  

 

[Kilmer17]

2 minutes ago, Larry said:

 

"Bells and whistles" being defined as things like "any medical services you get in the hospital", or "any medical services that you get, without being in the hospital".  

 

Cause, you know, those are the "bells and whistles" that Obamacare mandated that all insurance had to cover, and which the GOP wants to strip out.  

 

 

Again I say- don't do anything.  Let the turd stink up the joint until it implodes on itself.  

 

Then em we can all address the actual issues with real solutions. 

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

37 minutes ago, Kilmer17 said:

Then em we can all address the actual issues with real solutions. 

We can do that now... We also could have done that the first time.

[Hersh]

1 hour ago, Sacks 'n' Stuff said:

We can do that now... We also could have done that the first time.

 

My first thought when reading your comment was about personal responsibility when it comes to what we eat and the amount of physical activity we get among other things we do as a society. Not that taking care of ourselves and our environment would do away with cancer, strokes, etc, but it would be a good place to start...so long as it's not school lunches cause that would be the worst thing ever. 

[skinny21]

7 hours ago, tshile said:

when you tell some people that the rate at which they increase has decreased

 

you can see their eyes gloss over

 

and then their whole face fills with rage

 

they don't get it but they get angry at the same time

 

then they advocate we go back to the system that we know is a failure

 

it's remarkable while at the same time infuriating

 

Got an email response (about not voting for this mess) from Senstor Cornyn saying premiums have gone up 104%... quick google search and I responded with how much it had gone up historically (pre-ACA).  

 

I mean, c'mom man, try harder.  

[TradeTheBeal!]

5 hours ago, Kilmer17 said:

 

Again I say- don't do anything.  Let the turd stink up the joint until it implodes on itself.  

 

Then em we can all address the actual issues with real solutions. 

 

If it's that bad, why hadn't it imploded yet?  

[Kilmer17]

10 hours ago, Sacks 'n' Stuff said:

We can do that now... We also could have done that the first time.

No we cant.  It would be like building a grand house on a weak foundation.  It'll still fall over.

5 hours ago, TryTheBeal! said:

 

If it's that bad, why hadn't it imploded yet?  

It's well on it's way.  But the answer to your question is simply that not enough time has elapsed since it's implementation.  If we do nothing, do you think it will survive?

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

1 hour ago, Kilmer17 said:

No we cant.  It would be like building a grand house on a weak foundation.  It'll still fall over.

 

It's well on it's way.  But the answer to your question is simply that not enough time has elapsed since it's implementation.  If we do nothing, do you think it will survive?

Point 1: If that's the case, why can't we fix the foundation now? I fail to see why we'd need to wait until after a bunch of people have had to suffer.

 

Point 2: I think most everybody realizes that the system is not perfect in it's current form. Nobody is saying do nothing. If you're counting on the GOP to fix it, you're playing a bad hand. Step 1 would be actually wanting to fix it and they've proven that they are motivated by anything other than trying to fix healthcare for American citizens. Case in point, whether you agree with his policies or not, you can't deny that Obama was trying to pass legislation that would help Americans. What was the GOP trying to do during that time? Prevent Obama from accomplishing anything. Now, look at the **** they've put forward and the reaction of every expert in the health profession and medical sectors. They know it's going to hurt people. They still want to push that **** through because their motivation is to undo anything Obama did plus help make some really rich people slightly richer and to them, millions of people losing their insurance and lots of people suffering and dying is a small price to pay for such a noble cause.

[Kilmer17]

2 minutes ago, Sacks 'n' Stuff said:

Point 1: If that's the case, why can't we fix the foundation now? I fail to see why we'd need to wait until after a bunch of people have had to suffer.

 

Point 2: I think most everybody realizes that the system is not perfect in it's current form. Nobody is saying do nothing. If you're counting on the GOP to fix it, you're playing a bad hand. Step 1 would be actually wanting to fix it and they've proven that they are motivated by anything other than trying to fix healthcare for American citizens. Case in point, whether you agree with his policies or not, you can't deny that Obama was trying to pass legislation that would help Americans. What was the GOP trying to do during that time? Prevent Obama from accomplishing anything. Now, look at the **** they've put forward and the reaction of every expert in the health profession and medical sectors. They know it's going to hurt people. They still want to push that **** through because their motivation is to undo anything Obama did plus help make some really rich people slightly richer and to them, millions of people losing their insurance and lots of people suffering and dying is a small price to pay for such a noble cause.

I ABSOLUTELY deny that Obama was trying to pass anything to help Americans.  Maybe SOME Americans.  Maybe his base.  But certainly not me.

[tshile]

1 hour ago, Kilmer17 said:

It's well on it's way.  But the answer to your question is simply that not enough time has elapsed since it's implementation.  If we do nothing, do you think it will survive?

 

And there is the problem with this whole converstaion.

 

ACA is not a silver bullet. It was a framework for a drastic change in mindset on what health insurance is - no more catastrophic only plans, focus on preventive care, attempt to hold providers accountable for the care they provide, get everyone into the insurance pool because a pool without the healthy makes a pool of sick people with higher premiums and a pool of uninsured people gambling on their health and we know what that means (because that's essentially what we had before.)

 

And here you are, saying "do nothing", then posing the question of "do you think it will survive?" as if it's some sort witty question smartly taking jabs at the quality of ACA.

 

It's hard to fathom a single policy desired to apply to all 320+ million people in the country that would successful and survive if kept in a static state, the way it was originally conceived and passed.

 

So instead of accepting that the previous system was a failure and trying to better the current system, and seeing the positive attempts of the current system, you and the rest of the GOP have decided to let it fail by doing nothing. As if that will prove some salient point you've had all along, conveniently ignoring the numerous falsehoods and, at times, outright bull**** that's been spread.

 

You don't get a cookie for thinking such a huge policy will fail if forced to remain static. All huge policies would. That's why we didn't elect a government once, have them pass things, and then say OK good enough you can all go home now, no more elections.

 

 

[Kilmer17]

4 minutes ago, tshile said:

 

And there is the problem with this whole converstaion.

 

ACA is not a silver bullet. It was a framework for a drastic change in mindset on what health insurance is - no more catastrophic only plans, focus on preventive care, attempt to hold providers accountable for the care they provide, get everyone into the insurance pool because a pool without the healthy makes a pool of sick people with higher premiums and a pool of uninsured people gambling on their health and we know what that means (because that's essentially what we had before.)

 

And here you are, saying "do nothing", then posing the question of "do you think it will survive?" as if it's some sort witty question smartly taking jabs at the quality of ACA.

 

It's hard to fathom a single policy desired to apply to all 320+ million people in the country that would successful and survive if kept in a static state, the way it was originally conceived and passed.

 

So instead of accepting that the previous system was a failure and trying to better the current system, and seeing the positive attempts of the current system, you and the rest of the GOP have decided to let it fail by doing nothing. As if that will prove some salient point you've had all along, conveniently ignoring the numerous falsehoods and, at times, outright bull**** that's been spread.

 

You don't get a cookie for thinking such a huge policy will fail if forced to remain static. All huge policies would. That's why we didn't elect a government once, have them pass things, and then say OK good enough you can all go home now, no more elections.

 

 

You're right.  When you start with the premise that "the previous system was a failure" it's impossible to have an actual policy debate.

 

 

[tshile]

32 minutes ago, Sacks 'n' Stuff said:

Point 1: If that's the case, why can't we fix the foundation now? I fail to see why we'd need to wait until after a bunch of people have had to suffer.

 

Kilmer's response is the answer to your question

 

29 minutes ago, Kilmer17 said:

I ABSOLUTELY deny that Obama was trying to pass anything to help Americans.  

 

When you fundamentally believe that the ACA is some sort of evil legislation then all you can do is hope it dies or gets repealed.

 

It doesn't matter about the logic of having an insurance pool that includes health people because that's how insurance works. It doesn't matter that preventive care actually means something to the long term costs of one's health. It doesn't matter that health problems can be genetic or otherwise random/happenstance. Or that employer-based insurance can produce a situation where someone is tied to a job because of their ability to get insurance; or how insurance companies used per-existing conditions. The rate of growth for insurance premiums matters not. The fact that some people "lost their insurance" because their plan was canceled and a new plan, with anew plan number, was created that met the requirements (and was otherwise the same plan) doesn't matter; nuance has no place here.

 

All that matters is that it was meant to only help certain people, or worse to harm other people.

 

There's no conversation to be had.

2 minutes ago, Kilmer17 said:

You're right.  When you start with the premise that "the previous system was a failure" it's impossible to have an actual policy debate.

 

 

 

So you deny the previous system was a failure?

 

That's good to know.

 

Also nice to see how you just completely dodge what the implications of your stance are.

Edited July 14, 2017 by tshile

[Kilmer17]

Just now, tshile said:

Kilmer's response is the answer to your question

 

 

When you fundamentally believe that the ACA is some sort of evil legislation then all you can do is hope it dies or gets repealed.

 

It doesn't matter about the logic of having an insurance pool that includes health people because that's how insurance works. It doesn't matter that preventive care actually means something to the long term costs of one's health. It doesn't matter that health problems can be genetic or otherwise random/happenstance. Or that employer-based insurance can produce a situation where someone is tied to a job because of their ability to get insurance; or how insurance companies used per-existing conditions. The rate of growth for insurance premiums matters not. The fact that some people "lost their insurance" because their plan was canceled and a new plan, with anew plan number, was created that met the requirements (and was otherwise the same plan) doesn't matter; nuance has no place here.

 

All that matters is that it was meant to only help certain people, or worse to harm other people.

 

There's no conversation to be had.

 

Yep.  Obamacare fixed all of those problems.  All of us arguing against it are ignoring the wonderfulness of the product.  As I said.  If you're happy with it.  Keep it.  

[tshile]

2 minutes ago, Kilmer17 said:

 

Yep.  Obamacare fixed all of those problems.  All of us arguing against it are ignoring the wonderfulness of the product.  As I said.  If you're happy with it.  Keep it.  

"fixed all the problems" basically goes to show you didn't read what i actually said.

 

or what others are and have been saying.

 

i'm actively arguing with you about your "do nothing" stance and your response is to say I think it fixed everything and we should keep it the way it is.

 

like I said - there's no conversation to have here. you wont even acknowledge what is said.

Edited July 14, 2017 by tshile

[Hersh]

35 minutes ago, Kilmer17 said:

I ABSOLUTELY deny that Obama was trying to pass anything to help Americans.  Maybe SOME Americans.  Maybe his base.  But certainly not me.

 

Yes, he was not trying to help those Republicans in coal country in West Virginia that have benefited from the expansion of Medicaid or that had pre-existing conditions. Obama really wanted it to say that only his base would get these benefits. 

 

Seriously, what a load of garbage.