Obamacare...(new title): GOP DEATH PLAN: Don-Ryan's Express

[Kosher Ham]

7 minutes ago, bearrock said:

 

What percentage of those on food stamp do you think had kids for the checks?  How does "many do it for the wrong reasons" justify taking it away from everyone?  In my line of work, I come across many families who fall on hard times and couldn't make it work without social safety nets like medicaid and food stamp.  The fact that you are arguing for taking away these social safety nets from everyone because there are fixable abuses is astonishing.  

 

Responsibility. Kids came from where exactly ? Oh...the parents. Between the two of them the bills should be paid. 

Hard times is a short fix. I would rather spend MORE money towards those situations than waste it on folks that have ZERO forethought. 

 

4 minutes ago, Sacks 'n' Stuff said:

Then you shut down that loophole as well. Same as we should do for wealthy people who abuse the system. And middle class people who abuse the system. A certain percentage of the population (100) is made up of human beings and a certain percentage of them, no matter what the income bracket, are going to do crooked **** if they can get away with it.

 

That is in part why I feel there should be a flat tax. 5% of 50k does not equal 5% of 50M. Yet the balance is fair. no loopholes. 

I agree. 

[gbear]

deleted for going off topic due to frustration.

 

Edited March 6, 2017 by gbear

[Hersh]

9 minutes ago, Kosher Ham said:

 

 

 

That is in part why I feel there should be a flat tax. 5% of 50k does not equal 5% of 50M. Yet the balance is fair. no loopholes. 

 

 

I hate a flat tax. It's so much more impactful on someone to take 5% of $50,000 than 5% of a million or 50 million. Raising the sales tax, another common principle by the GOP, is just as bad given. You want people off food stamps, you don't raise their taxes.

 

Back on topic. Can't wait for the cluster that will be the health care proposal. My guess they want it to come out so people think less about the EO.

Edited March 6, 2017 by Hersh

[Kosher Ham]

24 minutes ago, Hersh said:

 

I hate a flat tax. It's so much more impactful on someone to take 5% of $50,000 than 5% of a million or 50 million. Raising the sales tax, another common principle by the GOP, is just as bad given. You want people off food stamps, you don't raise their taxes.

 

Back on topic. Can't wait for the cluster that will be the health care proposal. My guess they want it to come out so people think less about the EO.

 

So you think the rich should pay more ? 

5% is nothing, come on man. Most folks wont even miss it. It is one of the reasons however that I feel a minimum wage could impact the economy...note I did not say positively or in a negative fashion. It has to be controlled. It's fair. There would  be no justification for folks saying ...well he had a tax loophole. Because there would not be one. Now you have to grab your own bootstraps and take care of business to provide. 

 

How much in taxes do I pay for gasoline these days ? Easy answer..too much.

[skinny21]

I'll tell you one thing we agree on @Kosher Ham - the need to educate.  

 

Whether its parenting, personal finance, healthcare, government, or what have you.  Unfortunately, that education needs to paid for and the populace needs to be receptive.  

[bearrock]

1 hour ago, Kosher Ham said:

 

Responsibility. Kids came from where exactly ? Oh...the parents. Between the two of them the bills should be paid. 

Hard times is a short fix. I would rather spend MORE money towards those situations than waste it on folks that have ZERO forethought. 

 

You should not let pride in your parents and your upbringing cloud what is an entirely ridiculous position.  People sometimes need help and need help for a long time due to circumstances beyond their control.  Not every child has both parents.  Not every parent can get or work multiple jobs or even earn a living wage.  Rescinding an entire social safety net program due to issues therein is as stupid as saying the entire ACA must be repealed rather than fix the issues (especially when Repubs can't come up with a better alternative in six plus years).  You could just say "responsibility" to every one of life's obstacles (why should the government be in charge of educating the children.  shouldn't that be the parents' responsibility?).  We've figured out long ago that "we're all in this together" is better than "you're on your own".  Otherwise, what is even the point of having a government?

[Hersh]

1 hour ago, Kosher Ham said:

 

So you think the rich should pay more ? 

5% is nothing, come on man. Most folks wont even miss it. It is one of the reasons however that I feel a minimum wage could impact the economy...note I did not say positively or in a negative fashion. It has to be controlled. It's fair. There would  be no justification for folks saying ...well he had a tax loophole. Because there would not be one. Now you have to grab your own bootstraps and take care of business to provide. 

 

How much in taxes do I pay for gasoline these days ? Easy answer..too much.

 

Without question the rich should pay more. I think a progressive tax system like we have now is a good thing. I hate that there are tons of write-offs and that we, as a country, don't pay for things as we go per the federal government budget. Anyway, I'm sure there is a tax thread so I don't want to derail health care further. 

[Riggo-toni]

1 hour ago, Hersh said:

 Raising the sales tax, another common principle by the GOP, is just as bad

Since this was supposed to be a thread on healthcare systems, let me just point out to those advocates of a single payer system - the only way it could be financed would be through a large federal sales tax. Canada's 13% combined fed/province is actually a bargain compared to 20% and above that is common in the EU. And that's not mentioning the huge taxes on gas that bring the price at the pump over $5/gallon.

[Hersh]

2 minutes ago, bearrock said:

You should not let pride in your parents and your upbringing cloud what is an entirely ridiculous position.  People sometimes need help and need help for a long time due to circumstances beyond their control.  Not every child has both parents.  Not every parent can get or work multiple jobs or even earn a living wage.  Rescinding an entire social safety net program due to issues therein is as stupid as saying the entire ACA must be repealed rather than fix the issues (especially when Repubs can't come up with a better alternative in six plus years).  You could just say "responsibility" to every one of life's obstacles (why should the government be in charge of educating the children.  shouldn't that be the parents' responsibility?).  We've figured out long ago that "we're all in this together" is better than "you're on your own".  Otherwise, what is even the point of having a government?

 

Hope you don't mind me adding to what you said by saying to conservatives:  this does not mean Democrats advocate abdicating personal responsibility.  

2 minutes ago, Riggo-toni said:

Since this was supposed to be a thread on healthcare systems, let me just point out to those advocates of a single payer system - the only way it could be financed would be through a large federal sales tax. Canada's 13% combined fed/province is actually a bargain compared to 20% and above that is common in the EU. And that's not mentioning the huge taxes on gas that bring the price at the pump over $5/gallon.

Why is income tax not a viable way to finance it? Or corporate taxes in which they actually pay the tax? 

[Riggo-toni]

Income tax rates have gone up and down since the 50s, but the amount collected has always hovered between 18 and 20%. There is no way the government will generate enough from income taxes alone to finance what currently makes up 17% of our economy. Even assuming that figure goes down through rationing and other factors, it's simply not feasible. All the people whining about how we're the only OECD country without universal healthcare (something Switzerland has achieved through private insurance, by the way) ignore the fact that all these other countries have massive taxes on consumption.

And by the way, we already have one of the highest corporate tax rates in the developed world.

Edited March 6, 2017 by Riggo-toni

[visionary]

 

 

 

 

[visionary]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 6, 2017 by visionary

[visionary]

 

[Hersh]

This will be as big a cluster **** as everyone has anticipated. No way this nonsense passes. 

[Springfield]

I'll be the first to say it.  Under this plan, health insurance premiums will surely go up.  Not a chance they go down.

[visionary]

 

[FanboyOf91]

 

[FanboyOf91]

 

[gbear]

That continuous coverage requirement should worry those who remember insurance coverage for HIV patients in the 1990's. HIV patients were dropped from their insurance for any reason at all.  When I studied this in the late 90's over half of HIV positive patients lost their insurance within two years. I still remember the case of the patient dropped because their premium wasn't processed...As it sat in the po box for weeks.  

Does this combined w a race to the bottom as we allow insurance to be sold across state lines while be incorporated in the state w the most lax enforcement worry anyone?

The ACA is far from perfect, but we would due well to avoid the mistakes we made with previous health-care laws and systems.

[Springfield]

Continuing coverage clause is going to price poor people out of the insurance loop.

[PeterMP]

6 hours ago, Kosher Ham said:

 

So you think the rich should pay more ? 

5% is nothing, come on man. Most folks wont even miss it. It is one of the reasons however that I feel a minimum wage could impact the economy...note I did not say positively or in a negative fashion. It has to be controlled. It's fair. There would  be no justification for folks saying ...well he had a tax loophole. Because there would not be one. Now you have to grab your own bootstraps and take care of business to provide. 

 

How much in taxes do I pay for gasoline these days ? Easy answer..too much.

 

If society fails, the rich will lose the most so yes the people with the most to lose should pay the most.

[PeterMP]

7 hours ago, Kosher Ham said:

 

Again, a program for folks. So many folks can not have children that want them. I will bold this if you would like... Don't have children if you can't afford them. Don't have kids if you don't want them, don't have kids and treat them as pets, but (here is the bold part) DON'T have kids if you can't handle your own responsibilities as they are.

 

Again a handout. That's bull****.  Don't take on a responsibility that you can't handle. Many...and I do mean many do it for the wrong reasons. They do not care about the kids...they care about the check.

 

I don't think in many case the check pays.  My mom works as a community nurse in MD.  They made some change to the law to make having children less of a financial benefit.  People kept having babies.  The people that my mom worked with were surprised.

 

People don't have babies for checks.  They have babies because they make bad decisions.

 

In general, I don't disagree, but telling people that can't afford to have kids to not have kids is going to have limited affect.

 

But that leaves us back to where we started.  What do you with malnourished kids?  Do you we let them go hungry?

 

To connect it to this thread, should we let kids whose parents can't afford healthcare not get vaccinated?

Edited March 7, 2017 by PeterMP

[@DCGoldPants]

Jesus -I think we all knew they didn't have a real repeal and replace plan. But this is worse than even I expected. 

 

So, if you don't have something for X time, you pay a higher price (fined) but it goes to the companies? Is that right?

[Rocky21]

I'm cracking up at the R's who said universal healthcare was a terrible idea.  And then they came up with their own version of basically the same idea and it's wonderful. 

Edited March 7, 2017 by Rocky21

[Kosher Ham]

Peter, I get where you are coming from...understand where I am coming from. 

For many uneducated folks...it's about the check...even when they won't admit it.