I Like The Sound of Trading Down

[pjfootballer]

Regarding St. Louis, it would depend on the depth of the draft. If this is a deep draft, they may want 2 number one picks this year. If the draft isn't deep, but next year's is deeper or better, you take another number one next year.

[rambler01]

So your argument is that all these "sleepers" are being ruined because of bad coaching? A billion dollar industry full of professionals spread across 32 franchises and the've collectively come up with jack squat. But according to you, random dude on the Internet, there's one sleeper each and every year. People just have to be smart enough (cause apparently all the current football minds either are not smart enough or too lazy to find the right guy) and develop the guy right (cause past regimes have ruined every QB they drafted). I says this even though the examples you gave are from a different era of the game and then a second one more than a decade old that has not been repeated since. Did I get that straight?

I think you should re-read that particular post. I said that young QB's with promising talent and potential can be ruined by an inept coaching staff. David Carr, Joey Harrington, and Ryan Leaf had all the talent coming out of school to be franchise signal callers. A QB can't make the conversion on his own; and when highly touted QB draft picks fail, you can give some (if not most) of that blame to the coaching staff for failing to coach him up and facilitating the pieces he needed for on field success. David Carr with the expansion Texans was horrible. David Carr with the current Texans lineup would have been above average and his skill set could have been on display a little better.

"Sleepers" on the other hand can't be ruined by a coaching staff. They have decent talent but not enough know-how and fundamentals to play right away. You can only develop them and wait for them to come around (if they have a glimmer of potential as Gibbs saw with Rypien).

[kiingspadee]

This!

or the price being too high; it's not the end of the world.

The price for Griffin or even Luck has no ceiling in terms of what we should be willing to give up (exceptions are the young guys we are building around like Kerrigan, Rak, Armstrong, our RBS, and guys like this) Other than that you get the franchise QB we have needed and avoided for so long AL ALL COSTS! I'd trade my own mother for a franchise QB that can bring back the glory to this franchise

[pjfootballer]

Yates has stepped in for an injured started and won a playoff game....he'll be praised for that feat alone. He could have imploded and lost that game from his lack of experience, but he didn't.....that is to be commended.

I think that every draft has a sleeper QB who could blossom with a coaching staff that has a knack for nurturing Quarterbacks; I believe that in my heart. I think we can find him IF this whole Griffin III thing falls apart.

I'm tired of trying to find a sleeper (Ramsey, Frerotte, Campbell), retreads (Brunell, B. Johnson, Banks, Grossman), tired of scraps (McNabb, Freiz, Matthews, Wherrful). I want a bona fide, top 5 drafted college QB, ready to start and lead this team for 10+ years.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

Drew Brees was the 32nd pick in the draft. Patrick Ramsey was the 32nd pick the next year. Are we really buying that Ramsey was a "sleeper" too?

My main take from what was being discussed is whether or not the Skins could still find a franchise QB outside of the top prospects or top 10 (or, hell, even outside of the 1st round). Ramsey wasn't a sleeper because he wasn't very good lol...

I'm not advocating a stance that finding that "sleeper" would be "easy" or that attempting to find it would be preferable to using multiple picks to trade up...I'm praying we get either RG3 or Luck, to be honest. But the idea that finding a QB outside of the 1st round who could turn into a franchise QB with the right coaching and system is some once-in-a-decade slice of luck isn't accurate. There have definitely been a number of serviceable QBs taken past the 1st round that would have made nice placeholders at the very least, serviceable enough to help the Skins make some playoff runs while we built up the team and went out and got a true franchise QB...and better than the stopgaps we've been having the last 10 years anyway lol...

I'll grant you Garrard, Romo sits to pee, and Cassell. The Redskins can sign Garrard right now, that's how good he is.

We're not talking about how good Garrard is now, we're talking about how good he was when he was drafted and in his developing years. I have no doubt Garrard could have been a good solution at QB with the right coach/team and the right scheme in place...which was the initial argument being given by whoever gave it.

[pjfootballer]

Yeah, the whole "hey let's find a sleeper QB somewhere" is based on hope, not experience. In reality, the late round sleeper comes around is basically one QB every 2-3 DRAFTS. Out of 30 QBs after the 1st round, you see a guy become a solid starter, much less a franchise QB, every 2-3 drafts.

Refusing to invest in the QB position because you think you can find Tom Brady is like quitting your job because you think you'll win the lottery.

Good post. I'm tired of trying to find these "hidden gems" I want the chunk of GOLD.

[nonniey]

Come on guys the OP makes a valid point. I think he prefers that we can trade up and land Griffen, but he is making an assumption (probably a good one) that we won't be able too. That said his plan B is to trade down. I for one strongly agree with this. I differ with the OP in that I'd trade for future picks - as many as I could get in order to set us up next year to draft Barkley. Bottomline, like most of you I want Luck, then Griffen, but I honesty don't think we'll get either, so we may have to suck it up for another year with poor QB play and then get Barkley.

[Darth Tater]

I agree but the what helped them get there? A QB! Had they had just that good supporting cast and say Rex Grossman throwing to them or someone average/below average those supporting cast would not matter.

Thing is, for us fans, the journey is always more fun and a realistic hope is huge. Yes, winning the SB is huge fun but almost as soon as its over, you'll be looking to next year. I'd rather have been an Eagles fan from 2000-now than a Jets fan during the Namath years (and, yes, I saw both). What you really need to look at is the teams that over the years have been consistent playoff contender every season (BTW, not all playoff contenders will actually go the playoffs). Almost all of those teams have at least an above average QB and many have franchise guys.

[The Robert Griffin Experience]

I think you should re-read that particular post. I said that young QB's with promising talent and potential can be ruined by an inept coaching staff. David Carr, Joey Harrington, and Ryan Leaf had all the talent coming out of school to be franchise signal callers.

The David Carr argument is bull****. The narrative is wrong.

Harrington was given a THIRD-ROUND grade by a lot of teams, and was actually pretty average at Washington (look at his college comp %, yikes)

Leaf? You're suggesting that a human trainwreck like Ryan Leaf was ruined by his COACHING STAFF?

. David Carr with the expansion Texans was horrible. David Carr with the current Texans lineup would have been above average and his skill set could have been on display a little better.

David Carr was significantly worse than the Schaub and Rosenfels platoon the year after (look at the MASSIVE decline in sack numbers too!), despite having the same supporting cast. Whatever the scouting reports said pre-draft, they were wrong. He had a slow release, he was bad at reading defenses, and he was panicky in the pocket. Maybe the rookie year did ruin him, but there are a lot of top QBs that get crushed their rookie years and they turned out fine (sup Peyton and Troy) To a huge extent, he made the OL look worse than it actually was.

It's similar to the "we ruined Jason Campbell" argument - his lack of pocket presence caused him to create a lot of sacks himself.

There are a lot of Texans fans who will tell you about Carr "sacking himself" on many occasions.

Fun fact: David Carr was outplayed handily by Tony Banks behind that same line in 2003.

I'm not advocating a stance that finding that "sleeper" would be "easy" or that attempting to find it would be preferable to using multiple picks to trade up...I'm praying we get either RG3 or Luck, to be honest. But the idea that finding a QB outside of the 1st round who could turn into a franchise QB with the right coaching and system is some once-in-a-decade slice of luck isn't accurate.

Yes. It. IS. The record SHOWS that it is. 2 legitimate franchise QBs since 2000, and one was a borderline 1st rounder anyway!

Every decade or so, you get a Joe Montana or a Tom Brady or a Tony Romo sits to pee. But there's only one or two of those guys a decade. This is out of literally hundreds of so-called "sleepers".

There have definitely been a number of serviceable QBs taken past the 1st round that would have made nice placeholders at the very least, serviceable enough to help the Skins make some playoff runs while we built up the team and went out and got a true franchise QB...and better than the stopgaps we've been having the last 10 years anyway lol...

So in the same paragraph, you talk about "servicable" QBs being "nice placeholders", while complaining about "the stopgaps we've been having the last 10 years anyway"? So you basically are satisfied with Jason Campbell-level performance at QB?

[KCClybun]

I think you should re-read that particular post. I said that young QB's with promising talent and potential can be ruined by an inept coaching staff. David Carr, Joey Harrington, and Ryan Leaf had all the talent coming out of school to be franchise signal callers. A QB can't make the conversion on his own; and when highly touted QB draft picks fail, you can give some (if not most) of that blame to the coaching staff for failing to coach him up and facilitating the pieces he needed for on field success. David Carr with the expansion Texans was horrible. David Carr with the current Texans lineup would have been above average and his skill set could have been on display a little better.

"Sleepers" on the other hand can't be ruined by a coaching staff. They have decent talent but not enough know-how and fundamentals to play right away. You can only develop them and wait for them to come around (if they have a glimmer of potential as Gibbs saw with Rypien).

Ooooohhh, there is so much wrong in this post I can hardly stand it.

Ryan Leaf didn't fail because the organization "failed to coach him up" or didn't put the pieces around him to facilitate success. He failed, and this is a fact, because he was an egotistical *******, who didn't put in the work, had a HORRIBLE attitude, and just plain straight up sucked. Leaf had the talent, but like Jeff George, like JaMarcus Russell, he didn't have it between the airs or personality wise to make t as a quarterback.

To the Lions credit, they DID try to put pieces around Harrington. They drafted him a wide receiver (who also sucked), they tried to find him a running back. Matt Millen was a terrible general manager, but I don't think you can claim the Lions flat out didn't try to put pices around him. Fact is, Harrington was the product of a really weak class at quarterback. Nothing about his numbers at Oregon suggested "first round draft pick", but people liked his skillset, despite the fact he never completed more than 60 percent of his passes. He had a decent-ish senior season, but the quarterback class that year suuuccccckkkkeeed.

The fact is, when the Houston Texans started to get better, David Carr didn't get better with them. Maybe he was ruined on that football team those first few years, but he never improved, even when the team around him improved and got better.

In any case, bust like Leaf and Harrington happened were NOT all on the organization.

[Jericho]

I think you should re-read that particular post. I said that young QB's with promising talent and potential can be ruined by an inept coaching staff. David Carr, Joey Harrington, and Ryan Leaf had all the talent coming out of school to be franchise signal callers. A QB can't make the conversion on his own; and when highly touted QB draft picks fail, you can give some (if not most) of that blame to the coaching staff for failing to coach him up and facilitating the pieces he needed for on field success. David Carr with the expansion Texans was horrible. David Carr with the current Texans lineup would have been above average and his skill set could have been on display a little better.

"Sleepers" on the other hand can't be ruined by a coaching staff. They have decent talent but not enough know-how and fundamentals to play right away. You can only develop them and wait for them to come around (if they have a glimmer of potential as Gibbs saw with Rypien).

So now I'm not sure what you are arguing. You now seem to be saying that all high round busts can be blamed on the teams. I will disagree with that statement generally (it's not that teams have zero influence, but some guys had major flaws exposed), but not sure what relevancy is has to you claim there are sleepers all the time in the NFL draft. Yet you can comb through a decade's worth of drafts, and once you get past Matt Schaub and Tony Romo sits to pee, the best QBs out there are guys like David Garrard and Matt Casell. These guys are no better than Jason Campbell. Is that your plan to try and develop another Jason Campbell? I still don't see all these sleepers you claim exist

[Redskins4ever]

A lurker who finally decided to register here.

I've been reading quite a few threads and posts suggesting we should go all in for Luck or Griffin. In my humble opinion, the Colts will not field any offers for the #1 overall and absolutely draft Luck to be Peyton's successor (football is a long-tern business and Andrew Luck speaks to that).

With Luck not being a viable option, that leaves prospect "1B" in Griffin III. Here's the thing we all need to accept, the kid WILL NOT slip past Cleveland at #4 overall.....bottom line! Sure they have Colt McCoy, but it's clear the NFL potential between Griffin III and McCoy is absurdly different. It would probably make more sense if Cleveland went Richardson then Blackmon/Jeffery to give McCoy playmakers on offense; however, you don't pass up a once in a decade opportunity to draft a lights out prospect in Griffin III if he falls right in your lap without giving up anything. PERIOD!

Or quite honestly, Cleveland could outbid us and move to #2 with their two 1st rounders (it's just what I believe in my heart). Think about it, if you're the St. Louis GM you could take a couple 1st round selections right now; or, have a couple spread out over 2 years as the Redskins would have to put forth. If I'm St. Louis, I relinquish the #2 overall to Cleveland and recoup their two 1st round selections in 2012.

This leads us to the premise of my thread.....we are likely to miss out on both blue chip prospects and should focus on trading down to acquire as many picks as possible like last year. I believe we had 12 selections in the 2011 Draft; that was absolutely awesome because rebuilding a franchise starts with injecting it with talented youth. And quite honestly, moving up to #2 will be pricey....is that really something we can afford to do? Also, lets not count out Miami who might want a shot at the #2 overall selection and rights to Griffin III as well.

Somewhere in the 2012 Draft lies "Andy Dalton" and "Mark Rypien"; we need to scout hard and find his ass! We don't necessarily need a Brees, Rodgers, or Brady to succeed...but we DO NEED a QB who protects the ball, manages the game well, reads defenses on a high level, and makes the plays he has to when called upon.

Myself personally, I'm very high on Tyler Wilson who played well against Alabama and LSU this year (this cannot be overlooked). I believe Nick Foles in one to watch because he essentially kept Arizona competitive with their lacking defense and minimal playmakers on offense. And Thirdly, I REALLY like Brandon Weeden and his "Day 1 Starter" potential. Who cares if he'll be a 29 year old rookie...he looks like he could play in the NFL at an above average level (and this is what we need at the QB position). If Weeden is there in Rd 4, we need to absolutely take him if we have not selected Wilson or Foles already. At maximum, Weeden pans out and we have his services for the next 6-7 years.....I'll absolutely take that!

Just my $0.02 though. Please chime in.

I feel what you have presented here is a very good idea and a complete scenario on how things could turn out but.....it has been said that the Cleveland Browns will not be looking to upgrade the quarterback position. GM Mike Holmgren said that they will bring in competition for Colt McCoy in hopes he plays up to his potential. So, I doubt if they will draft Griffin III. Since they have two first round selections, they may draft Ryan Tannehilll or Nick Foles and have them compete against McCoy or try to land Matt Flynn in free agency.

This is how I have the draft going for the first six picks.

Indianapolis Colts....Andrew Luck

St. Louis Rams.....Matt Kalil

Minnesota Vikings....Justin Blackman

Cleveland Browns....Trent Richardson

Tampa Bay Buccaneers.....Morris Clainborne

Washington Redskins....Robert Griffin IIII

So, the Redskins might not have to trade up. But Bruce Allen may feel compelled do so in order to take Griffin III.

[SkinsNoles21]

What's with these short responses that add nothing? Furthermore, the OP's opinion is based on the sad reality that Cleveland could outbid us for the #2 pick by trading St. Louis both their first round picks from THIS YEAR. We cannot do that. I hope to God that we have enough to trade up to #2 but it's worthwhile to discuss what happens if we can't.

The fact that the Walrus said, 3 months prior to the draft, that they're going to bring in competition for McCoy means nothing -- since when do coaches and GM speak the truth about who they're targetting?

What I don't understand is why people seem sure Cleveland goes after Flynn -- sure I hope they do but it's far from a sure thing. And yes it would make sense for Cleveland to draft Blackmon and some playmakers to support McCoy, but they could just as easily refuse to pass on RG3, and if they do then we are screwed because they have more ammo.

The fact is, we have to be prepared for the possibility of drafting Foles, Tannehill, or Weeden. I think either of those guys, while not RG3, could be franchise QBs.

Until it is no longer an option, it should be the number 1 focus for the draft.

If people think the Skins have holes ... take a look at the Browns. Yeah, they have a 2nd first rounder ... they also have gaping holes across the board and cannot afford to give up a ton to go get Griffin. If we attempt to trade up, I feel we can give up more.

[Jericho]

My main take from what was being discussed is whether or not the Skins could still find a franchise QB outside of the top prospects or top 10 (or, hell, even outside of the 1st round). Ramsey wasn't a sleeper because he wasn't very good lol...

I'm not advocating a stance that finding that "sleeper" would be "easy" or that attempting to find it would be preferable to using multiple picks to trade up...I'm praying we get either RG3 or Luck, to be honest. But the idea that finding a QB outside of the 1st round who could turn into a franchise QB with the right coaching and system is some once-in-a-decade slice of luck isn't accurate. There have definitely been a number of serviceable QBs taken past the 1st round that would have made nice placeholders at the very least, serviceable enough to help the Skins make some playoff runs while we built up the team and went out and got a true franchise QB...and better than the stopgaps we've been having the last 10 years anyway lol...

We're not talking about how good Garrard is now, we're talking about how good he was when he was drafted and in his developing years. I have no doubt Garrard could have been a good solution at QB with the right coach/team and the right scheme in place...which was the initial argument being given by whoever gave it.

Garrard's not exactly old. Outside of a flukishly good 2007 in which he played 12 games total and threw a ridiculously low amount of interceptions, his numbers are eerily similar to Jason Campbell's. The same guy you call a "stopgap". So how can you argue Garrard is a solution and Campbell is a stop gap? Cassell's numbers are right in the same boat. They're all basically the same generic mediocre QB.

I'll agree that there have been at least a few "serviceable" QBs taken after the first round. But serviceable basically means won't completely suck. Campbell was serviceable. But serviceabledoesn't really get you anywhere. Maybe to the playoffs once in a while with enough other pieces. But in terms of difference makers, there's really two guys - Schuab and Romo sits to pee. And only one of them was even drafted. 100+ plus draft picks and one difference maker and a few guys who won't embarass themselves. And a whole lot of crap.

People need to admit that any strategy relying on these picks to pan out are longshots and aren't intended to be long-term solutions. Too often random fan falls in love with random crappy QB and how they'll be convinced so and so will be the exception rather than the rule. And they're wrong 99% on the time.

[phishisthegreatstuff]

I say sign Matt Flynn and draft Blackman if available. Otherwise trade back.

[rocskins]

If Blackmon is available at pick 6 we take him(assuming the RG3 has been picked). No way do we pass on him IMO. If he is off the board than if we can trade down then sure why not. Just think that Blackmon will give us a real playmaker that we have lacked for a long long time.

[HogNose]

I feel what you have presented here is a very good idea and a complete scenario on how things could turn out but.....it has been said that the Cleveland Browns will not be looking to upgrade the quarterback position. GM Mike Holmgren said that they will bring in competition for Colt McCoy in hopes he plays up to his potential. So, I doubt if they will draft Griffin III. Since they have two first round selections, they may draft Ryan Tannehilll or Nick Foles and have them compete against McCoy or try to land Matt Flynn in free agency.

This is how I have the draft going for the first six picks.

Indianapolis Colts....Andrew Luck

St. Louis Rams.....Matt Kalil

Minnesota Vikings....Justin Blackman

Cleveland Browns....Trent Richardson

Tampa Bay Buccaneers.....Morris Clainborne

Washington Redskins....Robert Griffin IIII

So, the Redskins might not have to trade up. But Bruce Allen may feel compelled do so in order to take Griffin III.

Even if the Browns stay where they are and get Tannehill or Foles, etc, I still think we need to move up to #2. I worry about the Dolphins making a move for RG3, especially if they get Jeff Fisher.

[Pick6]

Hahaha the OP trump his own post with the "once in a decade" comment.

I want a guy who can win the Skins a damn Superbowl. I don't want to just get lucky and get a wildcard one year and hope to win a playoff game. Someone in another thread pointed out that the odds of a QB being picked after 32 and winning a Super Bowl is like 1 out of 100. Those are awesome odds to bet against. Sorry all things are in place to make this move and grab Griffin or Luck. If the Skins don't, we will be regretting it for years.

---------- Post added January-12th-2012 at 02:23 PM ----------

If Blackmon is available at pick 6 we take him(assuming the RG3 has been picked). No way do we pass on him IMO. If he is off the board than if we can trade down then sure why not. Just think that Blackmon will give us a real playmaker that we have lacked for a long long time.

You have to have someone to pass him the ball first. If it is Grossman or someone similar he will have to run 5 yards back just to try to catch an under thrown pass.

[rocskins]

Hahaha the OP trump his own post with the "once in a decade" comment.

I want a guy who can win the Skins a damn Superbowl. I don't want to just get lucky and get a wildcard one year and hope to win a playoff game. Someone in another thread pointed out that the odds of a QB being picked after 32 and winning a Super Bowl is like 1 out of 100. Those are awesome odds to bet against. Sorry all things are in place to make this move and grab Griffin or Luck. If the Skins don't, we will be regretting it for years.

---------- Post added January-12th-2012 at 02:23 PM ----------

You have to have someone to pass him the ball first. If it is Grossman or someone similar he will have to run 5 yards back just to try to catch an under thrown pass.

I agree but what is the alternative? Trade down for an extra 2nd round Pick? Just think that it would be nice to have an explosive playmaker on this roster. Would be difficult to pass up Blackmon. But on the flip side we better hope that Blackmon and or Richardson is on the board ifwe are going to trade down as they will give us the most in return. Not so sure that many teams are going to be dying to move up to snag any other player.

[The Robert Griffin Experience]

The thing about WRs is that unless you have Calvin Johnson, it's better to have 3-4 solid WRs who do different things well than 1 "playmaking" WR. That's why it's better to not draft them high, because you can get the same overall impact from a platoon of WRs, especially if you run a lot of spread.

[skinsallday2130]

Pick up Matt Flynn, trade back in the draft and acquire more picks and draft Alshon Jeffery in the mid first round.

[Hitman21ST]

Pick up Matt Flynn, trade back in the draft and acquire more picks and draft Alshon Jeffery in the mid first round.

Don't want other teams castoffs. Draft a QB and find playmakers later on.

[rambler01]

Hahaha the OP trump his own post with the "once in a decade" comment.

I want a guy who can win the Skins a damn Superbowl. I don't want to just get lucky and get a wildcard one year and hope to win a playoff game. Someone in another thread pointed out that the odds of a QB being picked after 32 and winning a Super Bowl is like 1 out of 100. Those are awesome odds to bet against. Sorry all things are in place to make this move and grab Griffin or Luck. If the Skins don't, we will be regretting it for years.

For the record, I said Cleveland probably would not pass on Griffin III at 4th overall who is a "once in a decade" prospect. My OP is still intact, LoL.

[Flycoach]

We gotta get RG III at ALMOST "all costs" (IMHO).

[50yrSKINSfan]

I agree but what is the alternative? Trade down for an extra 2nd round Pick? Just think that it would be nice to have an explosive playmaker on this roster. Would be difficult to pass up Blackmon. But on the flip side we better hope that Blackmon and or Richardson is on the board ifwe are going to trade down as they will give us the most in return. Not so sure that many teams are going to be dying to move up to snag any other player.

Yes it would be nice to have a gamebreaker on this team. Look at the Giants, Eli throws a 7 yrd out and his receiver goes 95 for a score. He has receivers that get yac and we don't. Same with Pit and NE. We not only need a great QB but we still need at least 1 upgrade at wr.