Higgs Boson Search: CERN Releases New Data Said To Narrow Hunt For 'God Particle'

[greenspandan]

Science gives no ****s

"Men in their arrogance claim to understand the nature of creation, and devise elaborate theories to describe its behavior. But always they discover in the end that God was quite a bit more clever than they thought."

- Sister Miriam Godwinson

[HOF44]

Ignatius,

Is the Higgs field in any way related to what we think would create vacuum energy? Or are they 2 totally different things?

[FanboyOf91]

"Beware, you who seek first and final principles, for you are trampling the garden of an angry God, and he awaits you just beyond the last theorem."

- Sister Miriam Godwinson

Great game.

[Ellis]

Ignatius,

Is the Higgs field in any way related to what we think would create vacuum energy? Or are they 2 totally different things?

No, that's the Dyson boson.

The Higgs boson has nothing to do with that.

[The Caretaker]

"Men in their arrogance claim to understand the nature of creation, and devise elaborate theories to describe its behavior. But always they discover in the end that God was quite a bit more clever than they thought."

- Sister Miriam Godwinson

You should send that quote over to CERN

[Ignatius J.]

[ this is in response to HOF44 ]

They're definitely not the same but they are definitely related. So the interesting thing about the higgs is that it has a vacuum expectation value.

see here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum_expectation_value

What on earth does this mean? Well It means that for many particles, the lowest energy state it can exist in is simply not existing -- not so for the higgs, for the higgs, the lowest energy level for it is some non trivial value. ( in fact this is the key to giving mass to all the other particles, because the higgs exists in this lowest energy non zero state, it couples to all the other matter in the universe and causes an effect which looks just like mass to the untrained eye ) This is a special property of the higgs called spontaneous symmetry breaking. See here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spontaneous_symmetry_breaking

This is totally different from say the casimir effect, or even more fundamentally the uncertianty principle of quantum mechanics. Even if no higgs exists, then the uncertainty prinicple says that a positron electron pair can hop out of the vacuum for a period of time such that the implied change in energy of the universe is less than hbar / delta t.

see for example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum_state

[Jumbo]

"Men in their arrogance claim to understand the nature of creation, and devise elaborate theories to describe its behavior. But always they discover in the end that God was quite a bit more clever than they thought."

- Sister Miriam Godwinson

This is the kind of quote that is presented (not meaning by the poster) as being steeped in wisdom and humility, but I find it quite arrogant in its own way and quite stupid in its distorted and insecurity-based pretension.

[FrFan]

Peter Higgs was attending today's conference, latest results, there are 99.9% of chances they discovered the HB (Higgs Boson transforms energy into matter).

[Corcaigh]

"Beware, you who seek first and final principles, for you are trampling the garden of an angry God, and he awaits you just beyond the last theorem."

- Sister Miriam Godwinson

Stupid and ignorant beyond words. Go back to the Dark Ages with your cult Sister Miriam.

[Ignatius J.]

Peter Higgs was attending today's conference, latest results, there is 99.9% of chances they discovered the HB (Higgs Boson transforms energy into matter).

This statement is not quite right, but that's also assuming that by matter you mean stuff that has mass. Remember, all energy has mass. E = m c^2. The higgs is all about giving rest mass to elementary particles. ( In physics we try to avoid any ambiguity and simply call all the particles even the massless ones matter. Playing a little fast and loose because in the end all these words mean very similar things, All matter has energy, therefore all matter has mass. The higgs just helps give a rest mass to elementary particles. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invariant_mass )

Thought experiment: Suppose I have an empty box, can I increase the mass of the box by adding photons ( "massless" particles which make up light ) ? Absolutely. This is tricky in practice because you'd have to find a way to trap the light without absorbing it and without then having the box dissipate the energy as heat, but if I add a photon to my box and keep it in there somehow, then I've absolutely added mass. From a massless particle no less! The moral here is that mass is very strange thing and what we observe as mass in our everyday experience need not be so related to the mass we are talking about in the higgs mechanism. That being said, without the higgs, our universe would look nothing like it does today!

Second example, which is a bit weirder, check out this article on the mass defect: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_binding_energy

Thus, the mass of an atom's nucleus is always less than the sum of the individual masses of the constituent protons and neutrons when separated.

The mass of system is not just the mass of the pieces. Certainly all pretty tangential to your original point, but seemed like an opening to dive into some of my favorite parts of physics. And the discovery of the higgs just seems to invite a discussion of what is mass anyways?

Happy Higgs day!

---------- Post added July-4th-2012 at 01:37 PM ----------

This article from the new york times is very good. There's a lot of bad science writing out there, but this is on the nose.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/05/science/cern-physicists-may-have-discovered-higgs-boson-particle.html

[FrFan]

This statement is not quite right, but that's also assuming that by matter you mean stuff that has mass. Remember, all energy has mass. E = m c^2. The higgs is all about giving rest mass to elementary particles. ( In physics we try to avoid any ambiguity and simply call all the particles even the massless ones matter. Playing a little fast and loose because in the end all these words mean very similar things, All matter has energy, therefore all matter has mass. The higgs just helps give a rest mass to elementary particles. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invariant_mass )

Through the Higgs mechanism, some particles acquire mass and is thus transformed into matter. That's what I understood from the interview of a CERN scientist today.

[PeterMP]

Stupid and ignorant beyond words. Go back to the Dark Ages with your cult Sister Miriam.

Just to be clear, he is quoting a video game character.

[thebluefood]

Just to be clear, he is quoting a video game character.

No, no, Peter. Don't get in the way of his self-righteous rage.

[Jumbo]

Just to be clear, he is quoting a video game character.

My ignorance of this supports my oft made claim of not being a "video-gamer." And it's still stupid. :pfft:

http://news.yahoo.com/scientists-unveil-milestone-higgs-boson-hunt-044513533.html

Higgs has some emotional quotes in this one.

---------- Post added July-4th-2012 at 09:16 AM ----------

No, no, Peter. Don't get in the way of his self-righteous rage.

It's not rage or self-righteousness---and you're (typically) not clever, either. You almost left the building on that one--and remember, given the nature of your account here (bandnerd) under "thebluefood", your slack is non-existent. Read your PMs:)

[PeterMP]

Through the Higgs mechanism, some particles acquire mass and is thus transformed into matter. That's what I understood from the interview of a CERN scientist today.

I think this gets at how you define matter. If only matter has resting mass (keeping in mind all things in motion of have mass), then most things aren't matter unless associated with a Higgs fieldd.

[Corcaigh]

No, no, Peter. Don't get in the way of his self-righteous rage.

It's a very common religious POV. Self-righteous indeed.

[PeterMP]

It's a very common religious POV. Self-righteous indeed.

I've honestly never heard anybody express that POV. I do know people that are "angry" about scientists, but they generally seem to believe that scientists are lying and misrepresenting the "truth".

I've never heard that truely and honestly seeking any knowledge will lead to an angry God.

When I do a search for evengelicals and Higgs boson, I see things like this:

http://www.eauk.org/current-affairs/news/god-us-and-the-higgs-boson.cfm

For my honest curiosity, do you have information on people expressing a POV similar to the quote.

[Jumbo]

I've honestly never heard anybody express that POV. I do know people that are "angry" about scientists, but they generally seem to believe that scientists are lying and misrepresenting the "truth".

I've never heard that truely and honestly seeking any knowledge will lead to an angry God.

Mi amigo, I will say I'm a little nonplussed by your unfamiliarity with the theme since I find it a fairly common state of mind and have heard, and do hear, that type of POV rather regularly from family to public to professional life since I was a lad. I was even kicked out of Catholic Junior High School (asking apparently too-challenging questions about Noah's Ark <and I did it respectfully > among other things) with that sentiment being explicitly stated along with being "reminded" of the Evil Apple of Knowledge and Satan.

BUT

Let's NOT make this another "science v religion" derail---this thread is about the OP. I am going to make it clear that it needs to not get into the now-too-intrusive "s v. r" detours too many of these have been becoming. Those of you who have a hard time not extending such OT engagements can start a specific thread for your interest. A fly-by post, especially making at least some kind of normally recognized point, and a response to it, can be ok almost anytime if it's not too trollish. But it's the extension of such that derails.

[zoony]

Let's NOT make this another "science v religion" derail---this thread is about the OP. .

Still, it genuinely pisses me off that this is a discovery that should be occurring in the united states. Thank you American Baptists. Really.

[Jumbo]

Still, it genuinely pisses me off that this is a discovery that should be occurring in the united states. Thank you American Baptists. Really.

I always say if you're going to be pissed off, make it genuine (and you know where I stand on this stuff). :pfft:

Back to the particle, it still seems to me it's been less than conclusively stated that they have found "it." I just get they have found a particle (boson) that a majority seem to think it's likely Higgs Boson. Or am I misreading the consensus so far?

[Ignatius J.]

Back to the particle, it still seems to me it's been less than conclusively stated that they have found "it." I just get they have found a particle (boson) that a majority seem to think it's likely Higgs Boson. Or am I misreading the consensus so far?

Definitely the consensus. They found something, and it is making vague quacking sounds, but they can't verify that it walks like a duck.... yet. For many in physics, the hope is that it won't look exactly like the higgs of the standard model, and will in fact point us towards the next wave of discoveries. But there is also the fear that it will turn out to be exactly the Higgs in our boks and nothing more, and that all new physics will remain outside the reach of the LHC.

Take a look at this great video:

http://vimeo.com/41038445

for more.

[Jumbo]

BTW, Ignatius, I have really appreciated you making a relatively rare posting appearance (please do it more often ) and you have contributed hugely in this thread.

[PeterMP]

Definitely the consensus. They found something, and it is making vague quacking sounds, but they can't verify that it walks like a duck.... yet. For many in physics, the hope is that it won't look exactly like the higgs of the standard model, and will in fact point us towards the next wave of discoveries. But there is also the fear that it will turn out to be exactly the Higgs in our boks and nothing more, and that all new physics will remain outside the reach of the LHC.

Take a look at this great video:

http://vimeo.com/41038445

for more.

Is there really much chance with the LHC that they are going to be able to gain enough information on it to start to really address the next level of physics discoveries?

Is it seems to me if you have so many issues even maybe finding it with what you have, you aren't going to be able to go much further.

For example, if there are multiple Higgs Bosons do they really have much of a chance of making that determination, or are they going to be stuck looking at the average behavior or the behavior of the major one.

[Ignatius J.]

I definitely don't know the answer to this, and I'm not sure anyone does. From what I understand, most of what we are observing today is from a single reaction measured over and over, but the higgs should play a role in a number of other reactions as well. If we look at the relative strength of all these interactions, at least a few of which should be observable in the LHC's energy range ( and I believe after it reopens after shutting down for two years this energy range will double ) then we might see something interesting. In other words, we know this thing is higgs-like, but it may behave slightly differently than we expected. With lots and lots of data we may be able to see something interesting, since the real bottleneck is now in the statistics ( we need lots of events to divide confidence intervals by sqrt( N ) in order to really confirm a difference from expected behavior ) rather than in the amount of energy needed to get the reaction to occur*. We know we have enough energy to create whatever it is we just found. But of course you never know becasue it really might be exactly the plain vanilla higgs and that's it.

Are we likely to see evidence of supersymmetry? Who knows. Some more interesting higgs behavior that may emerge could potentially be indicitive of supersymmetry. That's probably the best case scenario for the LHC ( other than discovering a whole sea of new supersymetric particles which doesn't seem likely ). Are we likely to see evidence for string theory? Almost certainly not. Nowhere near enough energy.

edit: *Actually just remembered another bottleneck. Just because we write down equations for a theory ( say the standard model ) doesn't mean that we can solve them. This means that another hurdle to sifting through this mess is determining just what the null hypothesis predicts.

[mjah]

Still, it genuinely pisses me off that this is a discovery that should be occurring in the united states. Thank you American Baptists. Really.

But for the cancellation of the Superconducting Supercollider, certainly the discovery would have been made on American soil using an incredible device, made in America, that was more powerful than the LHC.

Makes me angry, too.