Personal Foul thread (referencing punt return hits, met)

[Dan T.]

i thought there was a 2-yard halo rule.

That rules only applies to Tom Brady and Tony Romo sits to pee.

[TD Riggo]

This "helmet to helmet" **** is nonsense! Most of the time, the player wasn't LEADING with his helmet, but with his shoulder. But until players can physically unattach their heads from the top of their shoulders, it is a PHYSICAL IMPOSSIBILITY to NOT have incidental helmet contact! It still doesn't make it "helmet to helmet!"

Besides, isn't that why God made helmets for in the first place?

The NFL should just change their name to the NPL: National Pattycake League!

[VRIEL1]

I was on the road for the first one, but the second hit on the punt return looked pretty darn perfect. The guy caught the ball and one stride later he was hit. I don't think you can call that a spear. Maybe Paul ducked his head a little, but it certainly wasn't to use his helmet as a weapon.

Am I wrong on this? Is it just the new NFL? Was the first penalty equally iffy?

That non turnover becomes a penalty bothers me. It looks like a perfect special teams play from my tv vantage. :tantrum:

Both were bad calls. I have not even read the other statements but I'm telling you I was just as confused.

In the first punt the Redskins was tied up with a blocker and as he was letting go of his block the Ram shoved him so the Redskin ran right into the returner. Fumble Redskins ball. No foul.

During the second punt the Redskin was a yard away when the returner caught the ball cleanly, the Redskin turned his helmet sideways and tried to bring his shoulder forward into the returner. Was it helmet to helmet? yes but not the crown of the helmet it was the side of the Redskins helmet against the facemask of the returner and thats not where the brunt of the force was laid, it was the Redskin putting his shoulder into the chest of the returner that knocked the ball free.

It would be one thing if the players lowered their helmets and hit with the top of the crown but that didn't happen. I felt the Refs were trying to keep the Rams in the game or there is a new rule that you can't hit a returner. I was soo pissed. If the returner didn't want to get hit he could have called for a fair catch. Why baby the returner?

[TXREDSKINS44]

[VRIEL1]

I can't see how Hall could possibly have known... the guy barely stepped out, and as you said,, even he wasn't aware of it and began to run.

Hall did the right thing.

~Bang

Yeah that was a crappy call also. The WR was clealy playing it as if he had not stepped out and continued to struggle while he was tackled. So the WR didn't even know he had stepped out, otherwise the WR would have simply dropped the ball and tried to walk away. He didn't he tried to run around the tackler and was grabbed and tackled. Sometimes the Refs need to account for perhaps the players just didn't hear the whistle.

---------- Post added October-3rd-2011 at 01:53 PM ----------

thats what i thought i heard on the broadcast as well. that is complete horse****. i have to say i have never seen that called on a punt. thats why they have the fair catch rule! and to hear ryan defend the flag was maddening. wtf are you supposed to do on a punt return? they were both timed perfectly. the rams, in fact, should have been flagged for stupidity for not calling for a fair catch- particularly after the first time.

---------- Post added October-2nd-2011 at 07:07 PM ----------

eh, i dunno. pauls been playing football his whole life. you have to know to go lower. i can see on plays where the guy with the ball ducks at the last second to avoid contact and the tacklers aiming for his chest and ends up hitting his head. this one, looked to me like paul was just too high.

It looked to me like the Returner should have called "Fair Catch" so he wouldn't have to worry about getting clobbered.

[sportjunkie07]

I'm so damn sick and tired of the NFL and their "protecting" players. It's a violent, brutal game. Been that way for over 100 years. It just makes me want to vomit looking at all the crap calls going on all over the league. And the Jets punter was hit twice in the plant leg and nothing is called. No consistancy. Helmet to helmet my ass. That's why they wear them. I know it doesn't always protect them from concussions, but damn, sometimes these players can't help by hit helmet to helmet. The linemen go helmet to helmet every play, why isn't that called? The players wearing PINK right now is perfect. Shows how P****fied the league is.

dont get me started on the hits to qbs.. ive seen some flags where the lineman is obviously trying to slow his momentum and avoid the qb.. yet he still gets flagged. or when a random arm glances the helmet of a qb as the defender is getting pushed by the blocker.

is it really necessary to throw a flag in these situations? one where the qb has a low probability of getting hurt and the defender was obviously trying to not get a flag. they arent protecting anyone, they are just causing unecessary and unfair shifts in the game.

[VRIEL1]

misinterpretation of the rules or a bad system of rules in place.

i think refs nowadays are going to call that a penatly (in both cases) 9 time outta 10. its stupid though.

they want the coverage team to stop, give him room to catch it, then make a tackle. it makes no sense.

The only complaint then was the Redskins failed to stop. Both punts the returner had a whole yard which is by rule the amount of space players are to give. Simply put the returner is not a WR in the air or just landing from being in the air so he's not a defensless receiver. After he catches the ball he becomes a runner which means helmet to helmet hit can and often do occur. Basically as Bang said it was bad calls by the Refs because the returner could have called fair catch and didn't.

[pjfootballer]

dont get me started on the hits to qbs.. ive seen some flags where the lineman is obviously trying to slow his momentum and avoid the qb.. yet he still gets flagged. or when a random arm glances the helmet of a qb as the defender is getting pushed by the blocker.

is it really necessary to throw a flag in these situations? one where the qb has a low probability of getting hurt and the defender was obviously trying to not get a flag. they arent protecting anyone, they are just causes unecessary and unfair shifts in the game.

Oh, you mean the glancing blows to a QB's helmet when the DLineman is trying to swat or knock the ball down?

One thing I noticed in the Ravens/Jets game, Burress was called for wrenching the face mask of the Ravens CB. He got called and I'm glad they called it. But Collinsworth was saying, if he didn't grab it, it was a legal play (which I knew already) by the ball carrier. Watching the replay, at first, the CB had his neck wrenched completly back and the chin strap when up into his nose by Burress pushing on it. Then he grabbed it. So why is not pushing on a facemask a dangerous play? Why is the CB not being protected from neck/head/facial injuries? Can't the ball carrier stiff arm in the chest? I mean, if they are on this all out war to protect players why is that play still legal? Hypocritical ****s in the NFL front office.

[VRIEL1]

Again another pet peve of mine. As you said the defense can not grab the face mask but a WR or RB can clearly put his hand on the DB's face mask and stiff arm. It's not fair that one side can not touch the face mask yet the offensive player can. If there is going to be a rule then it should apply to all players. Even OL or DL, which is where I see a lot of face masking or helmets popping off.

[MartinC]

I agree with the general sentiment in this thread that there are far too many ticky tacky personal fouls being called on hits where there is zero intent to injure and in some cases minimal contact. It's also too much down to a subjective call from officials which, because they are individuals, is bringing inconsistency and confusion over what's legal and what's not.

On those two punt return flags I thought the first was a bad call as Riley lead with his shoulder and the second was a good call as Paul did make head to head contact even if it was face mask to face mask.

Finally the Rams special teams coach needs to have a long conversation with their punt returner and explain the fair catch rule.

[Dan T.]

Somewhat related... I'm encouraged that Laron Landry has avoided any costly PF or unsportsmanlike conduct penalties so far. Granted it's been only two games, but I hope it's a sign that he's playing smarter while still being aggressive.

[Bobbyst21]

thanks i was hoping my points got across. i would add pictures from todays game to further clarify, but i havent seen them as of yet and did not record the game.

ill also add that the dhall play was bs. there is no way he knows whether the receiver was out of bounds. he may or may not have heard the whistle.

what he did see, was that the receiver was still playing. there is no way, as a defender, that you stop in that situation. imagine how angry everyone would be at dhall if he gave up a score because he thought the receiver went out of bounds or the whistle was blown.. while the receiver was trying to move forward..

it just doesnt make sense... and reflects an overconcern on player safety. what i want is an interpretation of the rules that reflects common sense, while still providing player safety. its possible, but the refs today failed in that regard.

and im not just saying these things because i am a redskins homer.. the refs definitely blew some calls for the opposition last monday night and in today's game.

Exactly,i was talking with my dad today at work about the PF penalties. He's a Dallas fan and was saying the refs looked paid. That was picture perfect punt coverage. And D. Hall's PF penalty is flawed in so many ways.

[jinrey]

Before anyone reads this can you please make a new thread of this for me because for some reason I can't post new threads and entitle it : I GIVE UP

I give up.

I have been a cowboys fan since i was 5 years old. I have tried so many times to stick it out with Romo sits to pee

Well Mr Clutch, Mr Meltdown, etc... does it again. As soon as he threw that first pick for six I started to get the old feeling back -- you know the one --where Tony blows the game. Of course it's a team sport so he had a lot of help. Like the offensive coordinator and head coach Jason Garrett. Why with 10 minutes left in the 3rd quarter (with a 24 point lead) do you call sideline pass plays and why would Tony ever think he is good enough to pass into double coverage? They already had a fairly decent running game established. They should have just ran the ball down Detroits throat until they figured out a way to stop them. But no, Garrett lets good old Tony start slinging the ball around and those two pick six's brought life back into Detroit. I realize that we don't have any better options at this time than Tony but with luck someone in the Cowboys organization will start thinking about drafting a Quarterback. Romo sits to pee isn't a starting Quarterback but he would make an OK backup or third string Quarterback. Jerry Jones, it's time to start thinking about the team and not Romo sits to pee's feelings...

Im so sick of Jerry Jones defending him and Jason Garrett saying " We beleive in Tony this team beleieves in Tony" JUST STOP im DONE.

Atleast when the Eagles lost yesterday this is what Andy Reid said:

"It was terrible coaching and we played bad, it was a terrible coaching performance"

Mike Vick went on to say "It's something I need to do better I take the blame"

Romo sits to pee can't even say "I'm sorry to the fan's Im sorry for blowing this... not once.. unreal. Im DONE.

I CANT WATCH A TEAM WITH A DELUSIONAL OWNER ANYMORE.. HE IS WORSE THAN AL DAVIS

“There’s no issue about faith in Romo sits to pee in any place in this organization, period. Any place. There’s no issue regarding Tony,” Jones said. “I had all the confidence in the world on the last drive that he gives us the best chance to go down and score a touchdown. Didn’t get it done, but we have a lot of faith in Romo sits to pee.”

"As Romo sits to pee goes We go"

Well guess what? Not me.

Redskins fans can complain all they want about 5-11 season or 6-10 season the past 6 years...

Well guess what having a mediocore team and not having 1 playoff win and boched snaps in Seattle and the chokes by Romo sits to pee vs philadelphia to get in the playoffs couple years ago.. Seattle.. Minnesota... IS 10 TIMES WORSE... gives us ****ty draft picks and rips your heart out.

I'm done I'm following the Redskins now... I can't take it anymore... Just out of spite to Jerry and Tony, its going to be so hard to quit on the team I have loved for 20 years but I just can't take it.... as much as I hate doing this...

I GIVE UP The Redskins FANS are 100% right YOU WIN I GIVE UP

I have already thrown out all of my cowboys gear.. 1000's of dollars worth of stuff after the press conferences last night...

I speak on behalf of most cowboys fans... but I'm willing to give in and give in to the redskins.

[blindlywewander]

Before anyone reads this can you please make a new thread of this for me because for some reason I can't post new threads and entitle it : I GIVE UP

I give up.

Ban this guy please...

The personal fouls were absolute BS. The refs are ruining the game for me. A few years ago, those players are fantastic plays. Guys get rewarded for making plays like that. Now, they get fined. Absolute BS and extremely frustrating..

[Bobbyst21]

I have been a cowboys fan since i was 5 years old.

I started to stop reading right after this,but i LOVE hearing puke fans cry. Thanks for the entertaining read jinrey. Just dont be jumping on our bandwagon. No need for fair weather dallas fans here. I wish i had a picture to upload of the worlds smallest violin for ya.

[Goingforburgundy]

Ban this guy please...

The personal fouls were absolute BS. The refs are ruining the game for me. A few years ago, those players are fantastic plays. Guys get rewarded for making plays like that. Now, they get fined. Absolute BS and extremely frustrating..

Its his 5th post like that in the past hour all over the forums

[BeefJerky]

Jinrey= ALMOST every cowgirl fan on the planet. :dallasuck

[CommDownMan]

Boy we got away with one there.

Couldn't believe the announcers were complimenting Pettis as "fearless". He's a complete idiot who put himself and his team at risk when there was no reason at all to do so, and was extremely fortunate not to turn the ball over both times or get injured. He had zero opportunity to make a play by not calling for a fair catch. His coaches should be giving him hell all week for his recklessness. Stupid, stupid decisions.

After the second penalty he didn't go back in if I'm correct. So he either got hurt or his team didn't believe he put them in a good position. So the Rams agree with you.

[terrifNick21]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rwl7NKRvyL0

[grego]

i knew i wasnt going crazy. ya that second one was helmet to helmet. first one still is very bogus though. defenseless reciever, my ass.

jinrey, how does one be from scranton and a cowboy fan?

[MontanaSkins]

On the second one Paul did make helmet to helmet contact but you could see that he turned his head to make sure he was not leading with his helmet. I feel Paul did everything he could to make a great hit but not a dirty potentially dangerous hit. Especially since it happens so fast.

First one was just a horrible call and a perfect example of an over reaction to the player safety issue. Bottom line if you don't call a fair catch and the defender does not hit you with the crown of his helmet you are fair game.

[SkinsFTW]

I thought everybody knew about Walt Coleman already. He's known as one of the worst NFL refs period for 2 decades. He was the head guy yesterday.

He's so incompetent that he's had his own hate page for at least a decade. He's the guy who decided that the Brady fumble, as called on the field, was a "tuck rule" call even though he had both hands on the ball and it was clearly a fumble.

Here's one call of his from a couple weeks ago being questioned: "Texans safety Danieal Manning was flagged for his hit on Colts receiver Pierre Garçon. The penalty was for a hit on a defenseless receiver, however an analysis by the Houston Chronicle (with video below) showed the hit was legal as Garçon’s head contacted Manning’s thigh. Manning was not fined. Walt Coleman’s crew officiated the game. http://www.footballzebras.com/tag/walt-coleman

Here's a link to his hate page:

http://www.provencehome.org/refsuck/pages/waltcoleman.html

"Walt Coleman

Who is Walt Coleman? If you watch NFL football with any regularity, you've seen him. Maybe you've never really noticed him, but you've most likely heard his name. How do I know that? Because Walt Coleman is perhaps the worst referee in the NFL. A ref with a history of blown calls, yet, still employed by the league. Think it's just me? Let's take a look at some of Walt's finer moments on the field..."

Here is a video of Walt Coleman HIMSELF talking about fair catches, at the end of the video he says that if the returner does not signal for a fair catch it's "every man for himself" and if he fumbles then its a free ball.

The Rams returner fumbled the 2nd return that was called for hitting a "defenseless receiver" which really should have been our ball and maybe a TD since it was at the goal line.

"Peter King, Sports Illustrated:

"Colts 31, 49ers 20 We've corrected the score because referee Walt Coleman's crew robbed Indianapolis blind at 3Com Park on Sunday and handed San Francisco a 34-31 gift. Peyton Manning really beat the Niners with a fearless, three-touchdown, no-interception day."

"I do not care what anybody says. Walt Coleman is not qualified to work little league. Coleman blatantly and directly made up a pair of phantom calls to snatch victory from the Indianapolis Colts and hand it over to The San Francisco 49ers. Incompetence is not even a valid excuse for the officiating in that game, Coleman's crew did the same thing to Buffalo, granting New England a "miracle" come from behind victory, by giving The Pats a blatant out of bounds catch and then followed it up with a phantom pass interference on a Hail Mary."

"Dr. Z - Sports Illustrated:

"I'd be screaming bloody murder at this point if they would have lost the Eagles game on that phony decision that Todd Pinkston did not step out of bounds on his 45-yard catch. Hey, Walt Coleman, three steps on the line isn't enough for you? Better get your eyes checked, buddy."

""This week, coach Bill Cowher said the NFL acknowledged referee Walt Coleman should have granted Pittsburgh a touchdown after reviewing a play in a 23-20 loss to Tennessee.

"It should have been a touchdown," Cowher said Tuesday. "That's great to know."

On the final play of the third quarter, Graham threw a 17-yard pass to Hines Ward, who was ruled down at the Tennessee 1-yard line. Cowher challenged the call, and Coleman ruled the replay was inconclusive, costing the Steelers a timeout as well as the score. "

---------- Post added October-3rd-2011 at 04:32 PM ----------

Also, Walt Coleman was the Ref for the Bears/Saints game where Sproles scored a TD and ran out of bounds before scoring. A coach can't challenge the play because all TD's are supposedly reviewed automatically yet the play wasn't reviewed and the Saints got the TD anyway.

---------- Post added October-3rd-2011 at 04:41 PM ----------

Doug Farrar - Seahawks.NET:

...this game was presided over by Walt Coleman, the only official in any sport on any level that has an entire webpage devoted solely to his incompetence.

Dave Goldberg, AP Writer:

Jim Mora said there was even an argument between referee Walt Coleman and another official on one of the penalties, a holding call against the Colts. "After the official that worked our side argued (with Coleman) that it wasn't defensive holding, he came back to me and said it was offensive holding, if anything," Indianapolis coach Jim Mora said. "It was a horrible, horrible job by the officials.

2002 Vikings v. Packers game

On December 8, 2002 at Lambeau Field in Green Bay, Wisconsin, the Packers came from behind to defeat the Minnesota Vikings, 26-22, in a contest in which the league would later admit that Coleman and his crew made nine officiating errors.[10][11] One of the errors included a 28-yard pass interference penalty that was called on Vikings safety Corey Chavous, which helped the Packers to score their game-winning touchdown.[11] The win helped keep Green Bay in the race for home-field advantage in the playoffs.

2003 AFC Championship Game: Colts vs. Patriots (January 18, 2004)

Coleman was the head official in the controversial 2003 AFC Championship Game between the New England Patriots and Indianapolis Colts at Gillette Stadium in Foxborough, Massachusetts. During the contest, the Patriots defense utilized an aggressive coverage scheme, involving the excessive jamming of the Colts wide receivers at the line of scrimmage, en route to a 24-14 win. Colts players would later publicly complain that the officials did not properly call illegal contact, pass interference, and defensive holding penalties on the Patriots' defensive backs.[13] The controversial non-calls included New England cornerback Ty Law throwing Indianapolis receiver Marvin Harrison out-of-bounds during a pass play, and the contact applied to tight end Marcus Pollard during the Colts' final drive.[13] This, and similar complaints made by other NFL teams during that season, would prompt the NFL during the 2004 offseason to instruct all of the league's officials to strictly enforce these types of fouls (the "chuck" rule) – a change that became known as the "Ty Law Rule".[14]

2009 Cowboys v. Eagles game

Mike Pereira himself would also later question a replay review by Coleman during a critical November 2009 mid-season contest between the Dallas Cowboys and the Philadelphia Eagles for first place in the NFC East at Lincoln Financial Field in Philadelphia. With the game tied at 13 with 11:42 left in regulation, Eagles quarterback Donovan McNabb attempted a quarterback sneak on fourth down and inches to go near the Dallas 45-yard line, but was ruled just shy of the first down marker. Philadelphia challenged the spot, but Coleman upheld the call after reviewing the play. The Cowboys would then go on to win the game, 20-16, and take a one-game lead in the NFC East. Later in the week, Pereira, on his weekly Official Review segment, criticized Coleman for not adequately using the beak of the Eagles mid-field logo as a guide to help him re-spot the ball. "I think I'd move [the ball] ... It might have made a difference," said Pereira.[19] The Cowboys would eventually win the division, based on the head-to-head tiebreaker. This gave them homefield advantage for their first game of the 2009 Playoffs, in which they defeated the Eagles.

---------- Post added October-3rd-2011 at 04:45 PM ----------

From week 2 this year: The NFL's head of officials called the New Orleans Saints this week to confirm what roughly 70,000 irate Saints fans in the Superdome were already certain of. The league said there was nothing wrong with safety Roman Harper's hit on Chicago Bears quarterback Jay Cutler during the first quarter of Sunday's 30-13 Saints victory.

Coleman officiated that game as well. I wonder how this guy still has a job in the NFL? This dude has been blowing calls for decades now.