Personal Foul thread (referencing punt return hits, met)

[Burgold]

The first call was ridiculous. Punt returners have the option of calling for a fair catch. The defenseless receiver rule does not apply to them.

The second call was helmet to helmet, but I can understand.

The refs did a poor job this game.

---------- Post added October-2nd-2011 at 06:47 PM ----------

I believe they called helmet to helmet for the second one.

So, would you say they got three out of four PFs wrong? That's pretty outrageous esp. when the fourth was iffy at best.

[RedskinsInFebruary]

Slightly crazy. Paul didn't spear, but at the last second did duck his head and made contact with the returners chest and I think it road up to his chin. It was not helmet to helmet in the classic sense, it certainly wasn't a spear. In fact, it looked like Paul was trying to protect himself rather than inflict a kill shot. At least in the heat of the moment that's what it looked like to me. I still think it was a great "football" play and what you are supposed to do. Video replay might prove me wrong, but I don't think it will.

The Hall and Jackson PFs were much, much worse. Neither were remotely close to PFs in my opinion.

Looked to me like Paul ducked his head over because he was actually trying to get his head out of the way so it would be a shoulder hit, but was at an impossible angle to do so.

[Bang]

Here's the problem, helmets are bigger than human heads. When Niles Paul went to go chest/shoulder into the punt returner, the helmets made contact but it was NOT a helmet shot. When human beings make contact, they likely aren't going to make contact if they are not wearing helmets but when they are in close quarters, those helmets are going to hit.

How do we know this?

Because it's behind the limitations on practices and the idea of sub-concussive impacts, especially on fullbacks and offensive linemen because when you block someone (standing up) you are OFTEN going to knock helmets due to the force and positioning.

So, no, the Paul hit wasn't a penalty except in a stupid league that expects people to defy physics and cost their teams games so they can 'let up' on a legitimate target.

Exactly.

Nevermind that demanding a defensive player lower his head even more puts him at significant risk for injuring himself.. well, so long as he doesn't play offense, that doesn't seem to matter.

You can't get your head out of the way. It's not how the human body is built.

Why don't they call helmet to helmet on the line play? Isn't that unsafe? Slamming into each other full speed like that.. short yardage plays are nothing but helmet to helmet contact.

~Bang

[grego]

Thing is though, Grego. They didn't call helmet to helmet. I would have grumbled, still thought it was wrong, but been okay with that. However, they called defenseless receiver which was insanity. That was not a legit call and in my view pending evidence a ridiculous call.

thats what i thought i heard on the broadcast as well. that is complete horse****. i have to say i have never seen that called on a punt. thats why they have the fair catch rule! and to hear ryan defend the flag was maddening. wtf are you supposed to do on a punt return? they were both timed perfectly. the rams, in fact, should have been flagged for stupidity for not calling for a fair catch- particularly after the first time.

---------- Post added October-2nd-2011 at 07:07 PM ----------

Here's the problem, helmets are bigger than human heads. When Niles Paul went to go chest/shoulder into the punt returner, the helmets made contact but it was NOT a helmet shot. When human beings make contact, they likely aren't going to make contact if they are not wearing helmets but when they are in close quarters, those helmets are going to hit.

How do we know this?

Because it's behind the limitations on practices and the idea of sub-concussive impacts, especially on fullbacks and offensive linemen because when you block someone (standing up) you are OFTEN going to knock helmets due to the force and positioning.

So, no, the Paul hit wasn't a penalty except in a stupid league that expects people to defy physics and cost their teams games so they can 'let up' on a legitimate target.

eh, i dunno. pauls been playing football his whole life. you have to know to go lower. i can see on plays where the guy with the ball ducks at the last second to avoid contact and the tacklers aiming for his chest and ends up hitting his head. this one, looked to me like paul was just too high.

[C26 Run]

Alot of the personal fouls were a little suspect. The STs were ridiculous. The D.Hall one was stupid as well (officials are to blame not Hall), he finished the play like he was taught to do.

:helmet:

[skinsfan4life7]

Whether they were personal fouls or not, for safety purposes that returner for the Rams needs to learn how to call a fair catch. Most of those penalties were his fault for not signaling for the fair catch. Yes the Redskins might have been a little early on the hits, the Rams player did it to himself.

[Son of Gadsden]

No sympathy whatsoever for this ***** protection **** the NFL is trying to pull. Call a fair catch or risk getting smashed into the turf like a bug.

But dude, theyre just looking out for the players. They don't want anyone to get seriously injured. That's just not a safe thing to do to the returner.

Punctured lungs and concussions are just kind of a pain tolerance thing though....

We wouldn't want their ratings to go down on Cowboys and Eagles games, now would we?

[Woofer]

I posted a comment a few days ago to warn you guys that Walt Coleman's crew throws a LOT of flags on special teams. When the staff knows that, they tell their players. Danny Smith didn't.

That being said, the penalty on D. Hall was bogus, and the one on Jackson was b.s. too. "Finish the play" is the mantra, and he had no way of knowing that Bradford had released the ball. But that's Walt Coleman for you.

How do you know what Danny Smith said or didn't say? Were you in the meetings? Were you on the sideline?

Warning the fans is great, I was certainly ready.

[Boss_Hogg]

Goodell must be stoped, the moron is destroying Americas game.

[Woofer]

pretty sure that second one was helmet to helmet. that pic looks like its about a split second late. only one or 2 other posters think they saw that?

i did think that rob jackson roughing penalty was crap. didnt really think he 'drove' him into the ground. more like he tackled him and didnt let go. sue him. sheesh.

I saw the helmet to helmet contact on that one punt. Like they said on TV, if Paul had hit lower on the body it wouldn't have been called.

I see a fine in someone's future.

[Bang]

But dude, theyre just looking out for the players. They don't want anyone to get seriously injured. That's just not a safe thing to do to the returner.

Punctured lungs and concussions are just kind of a pain tolerance thing though....

We wouldn't want their ratings to go down on Cowboys and Eagles games, now would we?

I got the sarcasm, but for those who don't...

There is absolutely NOTHING safe about football. Nothing at all.

On any given play at any given moment any one of 22 men (plus 6 officials) can be crippled or even killed because of the collisions and nature of the sport.

They simply cannot make it a safe sport to play.

Decades ago they recognized that the punt returner was vulnerable, and they gave him to option of calling a fair catch.

There is no other position in the game that is given this protection.

It's basic football.

~Bang

---------- Post added October-3rd-2011 at 12:31 AM ----------

Whether they were personal fouls or not, for safety purposes that returner for the Rams needs to learn how to call a fair catch. Most of those penalties were his fault for not signaling for the fair catch. Yes the Redskins might have been a little early on the hits, the Rams player did it to himself.

Agree all except the early on the hit part... the absolute millisecond the ball touches the returner he is fair game to be hit unless he calls a fair catch.

This returner made himself a defenseless reciever by declining to use the safety protection afforded him as a punt returner.

~Bang

[Springfield]

Just another way of neutering defenses in my opinion.

I don't think, if this game were officiated 10 years ago, any of those plays would be called. Soon enough it will be illegal to tackle the running backs other than above the waist and below the shoulders. I loved each and every one of those hits. I think all of them were clean football hits. That's why it's called football.

Also, since one of the PR hits was "helmet to helmet", isn't it very possible that the returner lowered his head in the action of catching the ball (naturally) thus causing the helmet to helmet contact?

Either way, I don't care if it was helmet to helmet or not. It was a damn good hit.

[KDawg]

The Hall personal foul, the Riley personal foul and the Rob Jackson personal foul were really, really borderline.

The one on Paul, I still believe was shoulder pad contact first, but, of the four I'd say that was the closest to actually being helmet to helmet.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

The Hall personal foul, the Riley personal foul and the Rob Jackson personal foul were really, really borderline.

The one on Paul, I still believe was shoulder pad contact first, but, of the four I'd say that was the closest to actually being helmet to helmet.

I agree 100% with this. The Hall and Jackson calls seemed ridiculous to me. Both punt return calls confused me until I realized they were calling helmet to helmet. At that point, I realized that if it resembles helmet contact at all, you'll probably see a flag.

[KDawg]

I agree 100% with this. The Hall and Jackson calls seemed ridiculous to me. Both punt return calls confused me until I realized they were calling helmet to helmet. At that point, I realized that if it resembles helmet contact at all, you'll probably see a flag.

Yes. If they think it's helmet to helmet, you get flagged for it. Which is why Paul got it. But I still don't know why Riley did. Oh well.

[Springfield]

I mean they could have dove for the knees and crippled him for life.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Yes. If they think it's helmet to helmet, you get flagged for it. Which is why Paul got it. But I still don't know why Riley did. Oh well.

True...I don't remember that hit right now. What was pissing me off was how Tim Ryan was acting like we had to give them a halo or something.

[Diesel__44]

The only one I had a real problem with was the Riley hit. Hall supplexed the WR which would have been called even if it was a live play. Rob Jax made a great move to get to Bradford but you can't drive the QB into the ground and Paul's hit looked like the definition of leading w/ the helmet at full speed.

[LaxBuddy21]

Yea this was a serious misinterpretation of the rules and they need to be clarified. If you have the opportunity to call for a fair catch and choose not to, you are fair game. Great plays on special teams.

[tiger187126]

True...I don't remember that hit right now. What was pissing me off was how Tim Ryan was acting like we had to give them a halo or something.

i thought there was a 2-yard halo rule. i remember it from the XFL, because they had no fair catch but a 5 yard halo and it was pointed out how the NFL actually has a smaller halo but you can just fair catch it.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

i thought there was a 2-yard halo rule. i remember it from the XFL, because they had no fair catch but a 5 yard halo and it was pointed out how the NFL actually has a smaller halo but you can just fair catch it.

Unless I've been wrong about this my whole life, I don't think there is a halo rule. That's the major difference between college and the pros.

[Destructis]

I thought the penalties were called fairly. It is the NFL today.

That being said, I can live with us getting called for agressive plays like that. I would much rather the Skins get called for being agressive vs getting holding calls, off sides, etc. This team has balls and is agressive and I like that. It's about damn time.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

I thought the penalties were called fairly. It is the NFL today.

That being said, I can live with us getting called for agressive plays like that. I would much rather the Skins get called for being agressive vs getting holding calls, off sides, etc. This team has balls and is agressive and I like that. It's about damn time.

Yep...nothing wrong with intimidating the opponent a little bit.

[tiger187126]

Unless I've been wrong about this my whole life, I don't think there is a halo rule. That's the major difference between college and the pros.

yup, i looked it up on my own google machine and it certainly is just a college rule.

[Bobbyst21]

Here's the problem, helmets are bigger than human heads. When Niles Paul went to go chest/shoulder into the punt returner, the helmets made contact but it was NOT a helmet shot. When human beings make contact, they likely aren't going to make contact if they are not wearing helmets but when they are in close quarters, those helmets are going to hit.

How do we know this?

Because it's behind the limitations on practices and the idea of sub-concussive impacts, especially on fullbacks and offensive linemen because when you block someone (standing up) you are OFTEN going to knock helmets due to the force and positioning.

So, no, the Paul hit wasn't a penalty except in a stupid league that expects people to defy physics and cost their teams games so they can 'let up' on a legitimate target.

Exactly.A hit in ones midsection or upper chest will bring the head forward causing helmet to helmet contact especially giving the size of the helmets. That being said and true,we were called on a defenseless receiver hit. So its the gunners fault the return man doesent have the sense,that god gave a dog,to call a fair catch,which is his defense.

The Hall call was complete and utter bs. The receiver obviously didnt hear the whistle either as he continued on and Hall was ALREADY in the process of making the tackle.

Jacksons penalty was close but weve seen in the past where qbs have spun out and made completions,was the whistle blown then cause i didnt hear it and arent we supposed to play till the whistle is blown?Add in momentum and what the heck are pass rushers supposed to do? Take the dang skirts off these qb already.